"In the nineteenth century the quest was for speed. The development of sporting guns was driven by the customers' desire for guns which would work faster. They opened quicker, closed quicker, all the rest of it."

That was then. How about now? How important is speedy manipulation to your usual double gun use?

Do the speed features- self opening, ejectors, even self cocking, make any difference in regular hunting (as opposed to driven game shooting)?

Since 1954 the vast majority of my hunting has been done with cock-on opening, non-ejector double guns. I have never felt in the least bit handicapped for my uses. I have hunted some with ejector guns, but saw no real improvement for my use. I have also hunted with a percussion cap-lock muzzle loader & felt handicapped on only a few occasions, such as on a dove shoot where you might sometimes get a sudden flurry of birds coming in with long stretches in between.
One can of course fire more shots in a short time with a magazine gun up to the number of shells it can legally hold, but a double is quicker & easier to reload so if one just wants to be able to fire a maximum amount of shells in the shortest possible time frame an ejector double is hard to beat.

I guess this need for speed came mostly from the Brits. Think of the driven hunts, which are, or at least were, contests in who killed more birds - and the game was about speed. Actually, I think that three ejector sbs's with two loaders is the limit of human ability in terms of rate of fire on live birds. In most other places now there's a thing called LIMIT. There's only so many birds you can take, often as few as 2 or 3. When you have so few opportunities, you tend to want to prolong the process, to increase the pleasure. Accordingly, you want to decrease the speed, rather than increase it.

I've done pretty well in flurry shoots using DT's and extractors. That's predicated on using ammo that isn't sticky on extraction.

While it could probably be proven that a ST and ejectors can make a gun go boom faster for 4 shots, my contention is that, if you feel limited by the speed factor, you're trying to shoot too fast.

Certainly makes no difference to me in hunting. If filling the bag were such a priority that speed mattered, then an auto stuffed to the legal limit would be the way to go. Nothing can beat an auto for the greatest number of effective shots in the shortest time because an auto can be reloaded without disabling the gun.

Humpty dumpty you have a point: "you want to decrease the speed, rather than increase it."

Outside of the UK most hunters operate with bag limits, which makes the speed features a bit of a puzzle in the spec sheets of double guns. There are also voluntary limis, like in the French woodcock hunters club self imposed two bird daily limit (if I recall right).

A double rifle is best when confronting dangerous game for the very reason of having two shots in an instant and quicker to reload .

I thought the double rifle had more to do with reliability...essentially 2 independent single shot rifles in one...than with speed?

I shoot just as bad with a double as with a pump. Autos are out of the discussion.

For Shooting flurries and barn yard pigeons, an ejector gun can't be beat! Otherwise I don't feel the need for the extractors... except for re-sale!

I have Tony G's RBL with assisted opener and it really should be called the slow you down closer as it really makes it hard to close the gun more than any assists in opening it.
JMO

Jerry

Humpy Dumpty is right, as far as decreasing speed, for low limit birds that may come along at undetermined times. But, only if you know the birds are there to give you ample opportunity. Doves are a different story, particularly late season doves. Late season doves may well involve a situation where many hundred doves may come into a field to feed in a 20-30 min. time frame. I scout doves extensively, and have counted up to 700 coming in to feed in a field in a 20 minute time frame. The limit is 15. This requires every help possible to take the limit, ejectors included. I have dug hulls out of an extractor Sterlingworth, and I've used ejector doubles. Give me ejectors.

Types of gunning are so different that it is a rare man that has experienced all types to the extent that he can comment fairly on them all. For my part, on a hot dove field, give me an ejector S x S or O/U. Ducks, really doesn't matter, quail either. Doves, whole different ball game.

SRH

Stan,
your right about the late season doves. I almost forgot….. my fovorite late season gun is not a dbl (I am asshaned to say)…. but an eary A-5 in 16 ga 30" full coke

Jerry

I think a lot has to do with a persons physical make up including his reaction time. In my case, I'm 6'4" 265lbs and 75. I now only shoot clays. I'm finding that, a 12ga with 32" barrels and a gun weight of 9 plus pounds works best for me. I no longer have lightning reactions - probably never had if the truth be told.
George

Gough Thomas (a well known and respected expert of 30 years ago for UK Shooting Times) believed that when correctly used, the true self opening side by side was the fastest without a loader. He used a Henry Atkin "Spring Opener" (Beesley/Purdey type self opening action).
The way it is used is this (for a right hander)
After firing, the right hand alone brings the gun down, whilst the left hand goes to belt/pocket for fresh cartridges. As the gun nears fully down position, the right thumb operates the opening lever. The gun self opens, ejecting the spent cases as it does so - meanwhile, the left hand has collected new cartridges and inserts these in the open breech. The left hand now goes to the barrels and closes the gun.
Done by a skilled, practised individual it is a very fast and very elegant technique, but it is quite hard to do well and needs quite strong hands!

I think the fact that you're shooting a sxs says you're not in much of a hurry nor trying to stack birds higher than the next guy. But I do like ejector guns.

A pump or auto indisputably has the edge to either get the third shot (or forth and fifth shots in some situations where legal) for anyone. For reloading I can get two more shells in a pump or auto faster than any double ive used, especially an extractor gun which adds another few hand movements.

On weekend clay shoots, our squad of misfits often will do a forced reload on a true pair with the second clay something like a teal presentation. The break open guns are much more difficult to reload a single shot and get the gun on target. But of course that's the whole point of our shenanigans. With a pump the mass of the gun is not swinging off target line much, and can even stay mounted if practiced a bit. The reload in a pump is faster by far for my feeble skills.

I agree that a pump or an auto is the fastest until the magazine requires reloading - which here in the UK is after a maximum of 3 shots normally (more require an additional type of license which is less easy to get). Pump or auto guns would not be used when shooting game formally (in the UK anyway). However, above magazine capacity, I still think the self opening s/s would win out in the hands of an experienced user.

John,

Gough Thomas and I had a private exchange of letters regarding his method of speed-using the double. He was an interesting man!

Inorder to open the top lever one handed the stock must be trapped between the elbow and trunk. I defy anyone to open a top lever without support of the butt and not lose his gun! Thomas agreed that it was so and his stock bore the scars to prove it he said.

A really "speedy" gun is the French Robust-Ideal, where the opening lever is behind the trigger guard and is pressed towards the grip, a truly single handed operation enhanced by the strong self opening action and the ejectors of this particular model.

On the other hand, there are the techniques developed by the Cowboy action people who can load, shoot, and reload a hammer double and get off 4 succesful shots in 4 seconds.

My single Baikal with a spur lever behind the trigger guard and auto ejector can be quite fast when using the Thomas routine. Perhaps due to the "hand finds hand" phenomenon being enhanced by the single chamber, it can often be faster than an ejector double.

All these tricks are fun to do. But I never needed them in actual hunting. Speed in fast accurate mounting, good balance and fit, in my experience, are more useful in getting off a fast and effective shot. Lately I got back action 410 Cogswell hammer double, and that thing is FAST. It got me thinking about this speed thing and thus this posting.

John
An experienced speed shooter with doubles would certainly beat me reloading a pump. But up against an equally skilled pump shooter, I'd put all my donuts up against dollars the pump shooter would be quicker. That Tim Bradley guy would likely be my dark horse.

But back to reality... for me, being of average shooting/reloading ability, I can reload a pump much faster than a double.

It is difficult. I have a Henry Atkin Spring Opener - and I can't do it, but I have small (and not particularly strong) hands. I knew someone who always did it with a Purdey. I'm not sure how exactly, but I don't recall the stocks being marked.

Incidentally, Gough Thomas's Henry Atkin was sold at Bonhams earlier this month (Dec 4th?) http://www.bonhams.com/press_release/15159/
It made just under £17,000 (GBP) inclusive of commission I believe.

Do we count jams in the pump and autoloader times?

A couple of days I had a really good spot in an Argentinian dove shoot. Shoot, open the ejecting breechloader, drop in two shells, close, look up and there will be birds there to shoot at. Over and over and over. I think that in that situation the breechloading ejector would at least keep up with the pump. If the pump jams only once then the breechloader would be faster, in my estimation.

When I compete in NSTRA field trials I carry a beat up, pinned wrist, bulged barrel eight pound Parker VH 12ga (non-ejector) choked cylinder and 20 thou. A couple of times a pen raised bob has managed to twice fly through holes in my pattern, then turn and fly back by me. I could not get off a third shot as I was fumbling getting the spent cartridge out of the chamber. Ejectors would have been nice in those two instances. Other than that I have not regretted the lack of ejectors in any of my extractor guns.

Mike
You just can't get good ammo these days. I've encountered large holes in the patterns of all my ammo as well.

I would love to own a nice Purdey self opener, but the feature is an abomination, in my opinion. A much smoother acting assisted opener is the Cogswell and Harrison Avant Tout or the Winchester Model 21. On these two guns, the assisted opening feature interferes very little with the closing of the gun, unlike the Purdey.

Eightbore I certainly give heavy import to your opinions. You once wrote that there is more fun to be had with a Parker VH 12 gauge shooter than any other shotgun. So I tried one out and you were absolutely right and I now have four of them.

But I also have a little 5-3/4 pound Purdey 20 bore with 28" barrels, made in 1927. Once I re-accustom myself to it it is a pleasure for me to close, shoot, and open the gun.

I suspect that's the key, the pleasure of it not technical differences that may or may not speed up reloading. If the features don't fit the image or uniqueness of the gun, why bother.

Cogswell so called assisted openers [Boss also comes in this category] are not actually assisted openers at all . I do not know why they are regarded as such .What happens is that until the gun is fired and the ejectors are held back into position till they trip, that being permanently spring loaded they bear on the face of the action pushing it open . So it is only an "assisted opener" when the gun is in its cocked unfired state .

This is correct. A true self opener 'self opens' both when the locks are cocked and after they have been fired. There are a number of so called 'self openers' that only actually 'self open' when the locks have not been fired - and these are called 'assisted openers'.
Boss did in fact make (a very small number) of true self openers, but the vast majority are 'assisted openers.

Such guns do not 'self open' once the locks have been fired.

I had an auto ejector Cogswell boxlock, and thought it was assisted in opening by the extractors bearing on the breech face. Somewhat later, I noticed that was not the case, but the assist came from the ejector mechanism bearing on the lug sticking from the end of the breech. The ejectors were the Harrison patent.

Mike, our northern Ruffed Grouse are larger than your quail, so they make a conscious effort to fly around the boundry of the pattern rather than through a hole which may not be quite large enough. Your problem is easier to solve by simply firing both barrels at the same time... unless the holes in your patterns from each barrel are overlapping. In that case, you may have to have your barrels regulated to place the pattern holes in a different location. But you probably already knew all of that and just wish to keep it sporting!

. An 'abomination'. A rather strong word in describing anything about a Purdey IMHO. I think the self-opening mechanism only represents the highest level of the double gunmakers art and in that regard is extraordinary. Whether the self-opening mechanism is utilitarian is mere academia. It's a Purdey, one of the finest guns in the world. That's what is remarkable IMHO.

Well said Stan.

Give me extractors.

For me, I would not have ejectors, or self openers or assisted opening...all require springs and leverage to engage, therefore the opening and closing requires more friction, simple geometry.

Give me extractors and I'm happy. There is nothing that I hunt that requires that much speed, if it did I would buy and use an automatic. I enjoy hunting and taking my time, not blasting and speed loading.

I have three guns with ejectors and on all three I have disabled the ejectors by removing the springs. Southgate ejectors are easy to disable by removing the leaf springs and L.C. Smith ejectors are also easy to disable by removing the factory springs and replacing them with carburetor springs. Then you have a gun that opens and closes as smooth as glass, time and time again, and you don't need to pick up your empties off the ground, snow, mud, weeds or hold your hand over the chambers as you open the gun to stop and deflect the ejection. Extractors are simple and easy and effortless and if you know the gun you can unload and load it blindfolded.

Something that is never mentioned on these threads are the dents that are caused by ejector deflections in the wood finish by the empty hulls and or snap caps as they bounce off of clothing or whatever then hit the stock. I see guns for sale quite often, here, and elsewhere with dents in the wood finish from these deflections. Just my opinion.

EJECTORS IN.....


EJECTORS OUT.....

Only one double barrel in my stable has ejectors, my 1900 Remington. I'm in no hurry when I'm shooting. I'll leave the speed loading/shooting to the German 88 gun crews from WWII.

I made it clear that I would like to own a Beesley Purdey, but regard the self opening feature an abomination, not the gun, the feature. An example of a smooth working action, both opening and closing, is a Model 21 or the Cogswell ejector. The Purdey is not an example of a smooth working action, opening and closing. It is a nice working gun on opening, an abomination on closing. I would still like to own one.

I agree with you Eightbore that the Model 21 has a nice action; however, I have never read and am unaware that the Model 21 Winchester has an 'assisted opener' mechanism. Would you please cite references which corroborate your statement. Thank you.

Buzz- My 1938 Winchester Salesman's Catalog details this on the M21- a coil spring assists the opening of the barrels from the breech, once the tapered bolt is withdrawn from the adjustable machine screw's head-- page 40 details this somewhat. Those not accustomed to the design of the great M21, upon first handling one, may inadvertently think the gun in their hands is "loose or off-face" not the case- the coil spring's upward release when the top lever is opened to unbreech the gun may cause a bit of a "wiggle" (for lack of better terminology here) but it is just another "plus" that comes with the M21- along with a superb single trigger.

The Model 21 and the Belgian Browning O/U are the only two double guns that I would buy (if I could afford one) and trust the design of their trigger. Just my viewpoint, not cast in stone- others with "deeper pockets" that can afford Kreighoffs, Perrazis, Berettas, et al- might well also say the same about their shotguns as well, and be right.

Some 30 years ago, when I owned a nice older LeFever DS 20 gauge, DT, EJ, 28" open choked-great grouse gun- a friend let me shoot his Model 21 skeet 20- made in 1938--I killed three pats and two woodcock, over rock-solid points, with his 20 gauge- with 7 shells- early Nov. leafs down, great gunning day- I have never shot better on grouse and woodcock than that day, and that M21 may well have been the reason- less drop and a bit more LOP than the way older LeFever perhaps--I have wanted a 20 gauge M21 since that "red letter day" but never found one within my limited budget.

I think John M. Olin did the American shotgunners of the 1930's a great favor in keeping the M21 in production in spite of the great Depression--If you have one, or are in the market for one, you are indeed most fortunate.

If ya'll boys would use those guns enough to loosen'em up a little you would find that an assisted opening feature is unnecessary anyway. With proper length barrels (that would be 30" or longer) the weight of a set of barrels will open the action and trip the ejectors, ejecting the empties. I've been doing the "right hand opening/left hand loading" thing for years. First day's shooting in Cordoba got my new 687 SP II Sporting to where it would do that, in '03. Use 'em more, talk about 'em less.

All this talk of high fallootin' mechanisms to assist opening is a bit affectatious, IMO.

SRH

Worth noting that ALL hammer guns are easy openers and easy closers too. And if they are half way decent in the locks department can be a joy to manipulate when pulling back the hammers. Not to mention the instant sight and touch cue as to their cocked or uncocked state.

Stan and I have both noticed that the 680 series Berettas are very easy opening, for the same reason the Model 21 is easy opening. The ejector springs are compressed against the breech face. When the top lever is released, the ejectors just fight to get loose. In the Beretta, the ejector springs are cammed very gradually when closing the gun, unlike the Purdey. The Beretta is a great piece of engineering, the Purdey, not so much.

I've seen a number of self openers on the clays course.....most Citoris with a heavy load in the top barrel.

I've never seen any gun that locked up tightly and then fell open as easily as a Ruger Red Label.

I must own the only Purdey with a well made well designed pleasure-to-use self opening action.

I have never owned a gun in the price bracket of a Purdey. In fact have only had the opportunity to handle a Purdey but one time & that in a shop so didn't get to shoot it. It was a heavier pigeon gun chambered for 2 3/4" shells. I did try opening & closing it to check it out & was absolutely amazed at just how easily & smoothly it Closed. I had heard for years about how Hard these guns were to close.
I still don't understand how ejectors can have any influence on making a gun open easier "After" it is fired. The ejector mechanism would normally be held in its cocked position after firing & exert no influence to opening. I think on any double I own when it is un-fired the barrels will drop by themselves when unlatched.

"The Beretta is a great piece of engineering, the Purdey, not so much."

Eightbore, that is food for thought. Engineering being the key word.

Mike, you are not alone - I have a Henry Atkin Spring Opener that is a pleasure to use. The Atkin use of the Beesley design is very slightly different to the Purdey and reputed to be even smoother. It also uses different ejectors (basically Southgates).

I am not, however sufficiently strong in the hands to use it 'one handed' opening to gain the best advantage from the design.

I took my Purdey out this morning for a round of sporting clays down at Deep River Sporting here in N.C., a friend I was shooting with showed me a trick on closing the gun. After opening and ejecting the shells you simply just lift the butt of the stock while holding the barrels. It was pretty neat trick and made it so much easier to close.
I also have an Atkin spring opener and it closes so much easier than the Purdey does.

Thats what I have always been told, but several years elapsed between one (my only) short use of a borrowed Purdey and having my own Atkin Spring Opener, so I have never really been able to compare for myself. Thank you for confirming this.

But, does the Henry Atkin open as easily as the Purdey opens?? A Holland Royal with its' self-opening mechanism closes much easier than a Purdey but it also doesn't self open as well as a Purdey either.

I can't compare as I don't have a Purdey, but the Atkin opening is smooth and works perfectly with no assistance. The mechanism is basically the same (as the Purdey) with small changes to cam profiles, sizes and angles etc to spread the spring compression more evenly over the whole closure movement.

Check out the Shotgun sections (below the grid) on this site for examples of fast shooting with pumps and SxSs in Cowboy Action Shooting.

http://www.jspublications.net/records/records.html

Notice how fast the pump can be worked, loading one in the chamber for each shot. Also notice how the hammered doubles can be worked almost as fast as hammerless.

SxSs are allowed to have extractors but not ejectors. There are mods done to make the SxSs fast. I can post info here if folks are interested.

Pumps must have external hammer, and I think that limits it to winchester 1897s (and replicas). Or at least that's the only pump you ever see used for CAS.

You can only load a max of 2 shells at a time, so the pumps aren't allowed to load a full mag tube. And you must start the stage with the gun empty.

The pumps are ultimately slightly faster, but as someone mentioned earlier can be a "train wreck" if there's a jam. And the pumps are more expensive to keep running - it's hard on them to use them so rough for so many rounds.

Thecarman,

The modification that intrigues me is the tuning of the hammer gun to make possible the simultaneous cocking of both hammers. The technique I saw with hammers is the left hand coming back after firing the first two shots, cocking both hammers and working the opening lever. Those hammers seem to be "sweetened" in some way. The demonstration was given during the presentation of the Pioneer hammer double, I think.

There are two main mods specific for hammered doubles.

First, only a few guns come with hammers close enough together (spacing over the top of the tang) that you can comfortably cover both hammers at the same time with one hand. So the hammer spurs are heated and bent to be closer together (or some may cut and weld to make the spurs both closer together and longer).

Second, and maybe most importantly, is lighter hammer springs. Lighter for easy cocking, but not so light that primer strikes are not reliable.

For example, my father-in-law's cowboy double is a late model Liberty with no mods. The hammers are too far apart. The springs are so stiff that you need a solid grip on the gun and your whole hand to cock one hammer. There is no way to quickly use this gun as is. We'll modify it eventually.

Most of the guns used in cowboy action shooting are reproductions (not original/vintage), so no hesitation to modify them (like heating or welding hammers) other than that they need to stay within the rule book.

Now, there may be some cowboys with extra large/tough hands who can do this one-handed-hammer-brush to an un-modified gun, but I'm not one of them.

An alternative method is to cock the hammers one at a time. Some variation like: cock right hammer with right thumb after you've worked the lever to open the action, and then cock the left hammer with your left hand after you drop the shells in the chamber, just before closing the breech. (This doesn't work on my father In laws gun because the hammer springs are so stiff.)