I am new to this forum and new to antique guns. I have had what has been told to me, a 30's Webley Scott 12ga sxs. I have also been told that it was made in england and assembled here. My grandfather upon his death passed the gun to me and I did not get any history of the gun from him before he died. My mother told me the above. I would like your input on its origins and also what resources I can dig into to track down the guns history. Thanks in advance! [img]http://www.flickr.com/photos/94681205@N03/[/img]
[img:left]http://www.flickr.com/photos/94681205@N03/11504496285/[/img]
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http://s958.photobucket.com/user/roo7771/media/20131222_103256_zpsfcd63059.jpg.html[/img]
Okay so here is the link to the photo set. How can i get the photos to appear on the post?
Hello!
It could be a Webly & Scott but it appears to have another name stamped on the tubes (John Wright-maker?). I'm not aware of any Webly's being assembled here.
The _____MD USA on the barrel looks to be an importer mark.
Can't make out the name but with better pictures is looks like it should be readable.
Cheers,
Laurie
Welcome on your first postings
On Photobucket you have to list each picture
A slide set will not show up on this site
It certainly looks like a W&S 12 Bore or gauge as you Americans say. Proofed in Birmingham, England for 1&1/8 ounces of lead shot. I wouldn't suggest you use Magnum loadings in it. A good working shotgun. Someone in the past has boogered up the front faces of the firing pin retainers by the use in an incorrectly sized tool but that's all I can see that is wrong. The Webley & Scott factory records may still exist. Someone on this Forum will certainly know about that. If the gun is 'on face' and locks up tight there isn't a reason I can see for not using it.
Skeettx, The Photobucket slide show worked for me, at least on manual control,maybe because I have my own Photobucket site but then again maybe not. Try again and move your cursor to near the side edge of the picture roughly near the centre of the edge of the picture and a box containing an arrow will appear, just click it and move to the next picture.
Harry
The solid cross pin, forming part of the action body, the dovetail lump barrels, point to a Webley and Scott action. The presence of provisional and final proof marks points to UK assembly and finishing. Engraving and hardening would not be likely on an unfinished gun exported for local assembly.
The striker disc looks like it had been hammered open and then hammered tight again.
You could tell us what the marking is on the barrel tops that is a bit illegible in the pictures. The action is a Webley screw grip, a common action in Webley guns and others.
The markings on the barrel tops are
John Wright Maker
Kansas City MO USA
Harry
Slide show works if you go to the photobucket site but will NOT show pictures on THIS site in slideshow.
Thanks for all your help here
Mike
Your gun is The Webley and Scott model 400 or 500 model Marketed as the "Proprietary model" sold between 1900 & 1950.
These Guns were sold to the trade and at request would be engraved with the sellers name.
As stated by others the action features the Webley Screw grip and disc set strikers ,Hall marks of the 400-500 guns.
The apparent age of this gun makes me wonder if the name John Wright might possibly be the stockmaker from Hoffman Arms Co.
They look to be the proof marks from between 1925 and 1954.
I remember a similar Wright marked shotgun in an "Old Town Station" catalog about ten years ago. It sold immediately at $1000 as I called the morning after the catalog arrived and the gun was already sold. It looked very much like a Hoffman marked gun I had at the time as does the original poster's gun. A well done, very light handed cleaning will probably make a world of difference to this gun; I hope it is considered and remains a family treasure!
They look to be the proof marks from between 1925 and 1954.
I'd say earlier: 1904-25. From 1925 on, chamber length had to be marked. Good way to differentiate from earlier guns. For that reason, I'd say Model 400. The 500 did not appear until 1925.
I think Michael Petrov, Bill, and Terry Buffum have it pegged. Some Hoffman guns have the same action from the same period as L. Brown mentions. See the Wright -- Hoffman connection referenced by Michael Petrov.
I think when Hoffman disbanded a lot of the stuff on hand went to pay the men leaving.
The serial number of this gun is right in the middle of the known Hoffman shotguns and only a few numbers from one.
The gun was finished in the USA, engraved by Kornbrath and it may or may not be stocked by Wright, I just can't tell.
The owner wants to restore this so I'll let the shotgun folks offer advise. It's had a hard life and IMO will take much time and money to put it back the way it was.
Great information! This gun is certainly cherished. I would like to restore it in some fashion. The barrel has been cut down and holes drilled at the end. I would like to clean up the barrel work as it looks rather amateur. I would also like to restore the rest. Do you all have advice for a company for the work in Kansas City or near by? Or possibly a resource for diy restoration. Thank you all for your help!
I have a pre-1921 Clabrough & Johnstone, Birmingham shotgun with the same proof markings which date 1904-1925. I see in one of your photos that the barrels have a little crossed sword mark, this should give you the year it was made. Before 1921 Birmingham guns had no date marks, after 1921 they did. See the attached web link for the Birmingham marking dates. Very nice vintage gun.
www.shotguns.se/html/uk.html
If the gun is engraved by Kornbrath as Mr. Petrov suggests, it deserves a professional restoration. Start looking for a restoration expert, not a local gunsmith.
Excellent
It appears that the gun was made in '34
does anyone have some advice on restoration experts and the sloppy barrel cut-down issue?
Your description of the barrel "work" suggests someone may have tried to de-activate the gun. You need a double gun specialist to examine it to determine what all was done, and perhaps the smith can guess WHY that decision was made if the examination shows non-obvious problems you have not recognized. Reversing that "barrel work" is well beyond the DIY level, and the gun deserves professional attention.
As to recommended gunsmiths, I think Buck Hamlin is fairly close to you.
Buck Hamlin (636-479-4304)
Daryl is right that you might be referring to aftermarket ported barrels, not a "de-wat". My mind went to a BHE Parker I saw about 50 years ago which went out the back door of a police department - barrels cut to about 12", and someone drilled about 1/2" holes into the chambers.
here is a pototo of the cut down barrel
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The gun has been treated very , very poorly. But , in my estimation it is a gun worth putting a lot of money into to restore the barrels and the rest of the gun. It is worth having the best work on it.
Any ball park pricing on a restoration for this gun? What would the restoration entail? would they reuse the stock or build a new one and what about the barrels?
New tubes would have to be sleeved into the remains of your barrels, which IS going to be expensive. Perhaps someone has had that done and can guess a price.
I can't tell about the butt, but it looks like it an be saved - unless it is already a replacement in which case you might want to do it a second time with better wood. It is too dirty to judge from your photos. The horrible checkering may force a replacement of the fore end wood, but let a gunsmith determine that.
Wild guesses from us based on photos will not do you much good. You need to get together with one of the restoration guys and see if they are willing, and get a ball park quotation.
If that was my gun I would start by contacting John Foster in the UK. With out a doubt John offers the finest sleeving currently available. I think your fore end can be saved. The Stock Doctor, Dennis Earl Smith can make that horrible checkering right. First step is to get the barrels straightened out. Nice gun, rare makers involved.
You might consider casing it up and flying out to Las Vegas next month to the Antique Arms Show. Many qualified gunsmiths and a bunch of this membership will be there to give assessments of your gun. You'll learn a lot about doubles and see thousands of them all in one place.
I'd like to add a word of caution: don't attempt any restoration at all before you learn about this gun and how proper restoration is done. Wire brushes and sandpaper have ruined many potentially restoreable guns. Dont do it.
Any ball park pricing on a restoration for this gun? What would the restoration entail? would they reuse the stock or build a new one and what about the barrels?
Just some wags of the work that you might encounter...
Barrel sleeving $1500-2000
Casehardening the frame and misc parts $200-300
Barrel blueing $200-300
Trigger guard blueing $60-150
Stock refinishing $250-400
Checkering $250-500
Complete restocking $1200-3000 (labor)
Stock blanks $200-2000
Innocent question
Is this end of the barrel a cantidate for welding?
Mike
Mike
Didn't he mention somewhere they were shortened? Otherwise, yes the holes cold be welded.
Ricktr00.
In my opinion unless your gun has sentimental value that far exceeds its commercial value it is not worth restoration. For example You can purchase a comparable gun in good shape for 50% of the cost of restoring yours.
For the record, The engraving is similar in style to that illustrated in the Webley & Scott Wholesale catalogue for the 400 & 500 series shotguns. This series of shot guns was sold in three grades with the top grades very elaborately engraved.
Rickyr00,
First things first, how are the bores? What is the wall thickness? Find these things out, very important!!
It appears that the damage is 5" or so from the ends. If the barrels are good, (see above) and are 30" you could simply have them cut to 25" and the muzzles cleaned up. Still a usefull length even though unpopular at the present. Wait a few years and that will change, again! Your chokes will be Cyl/Cyl. That is OK in a upland gun. This will be reasonable cost-wise.
If that is not suitable then I would approach a good micro weld shop. I think that far down the tubes pressure isn't too high. The welding and the proper clean up of the bores and muzzles followed by a proper prep and rust blue should be around 1K.
The wood appears to need dried out, cleaned, refinished and re checkered. No idea what that would cost as I have done this myself in the past for about ten bucks. Acetone, floor dry, your finish of choice.
Your gun now, good luck!
Chief
The gun has been treated very , very poorly. But , in my estimation it is a gun worth putting a lot of money into to restore the barrels and the rest of the gun. It is worth having the best work on it.
I could not have said it better. Although this shotgun is outside of most folks knowledge base it's a gun well worth a professional restoration.
Ricktr00.
In my opinion unless your gun has sentimental value that far exceeds its commercial value it is not worth restoration. For example You can purchase a comparable gun in good shape for 50% of the cost of restoring yours.
For the record, The engraving is similar in style to that illustrated in the Webley & Scott Wholesale catalogue for the 400 & 500 series shotguns. This series of shot guns was sold in three grades with the top grades very elaborately engraved.
Amen....pass the plate.
This was my great grtandfather's gun and i wont be selling it. I would like to restore it to keep in the family.
Where can i view the Webley scott wholesale catalog?
Rick,
You can purchase a copy of the 1914 Webley and Scott Wholesale catalogue from the following sources:
Hereward Books, U.K. Origional, scarce, 200 pounds,[near the value of your gun in its present state!]
Tide Line Books, Rhyl, Wales, U.K.
Their product number 112/116 a reproduction of the original ,40 pages,10x8 inches. Price 17 pounds approx.,
F.Y.I.
Similar guns to yours by Webley and Scott,but in very good order, sold between 600-1200 pounds at recent Bonhams and Holts Auctions held in London, with several guns in this estimated price range going unsold.
Finding a similar age Webley & Scott might be the least expensive way to get a set of barrels to have fitted to your action and stock. Still the need for a pro to put it together, but perhaps less expensive, and the mixed serial numbers should not be an issue for a family keepsake.
Mr Hebbes is right. It's a money pit. You'll sink far more into it than it's worth. Don't bother.
Just leave it as-is and keep it around as a way to remember your great grandfather.
And you can't restore it. You can refinish it, rechecker it, restock it, sleeve it, etc, and write a lot of checks to have the work done. But it will never be the gun it was when new - value or condition wise.
OWD
The gun is a piece of American gunmaking history. It is not just a Scott. Listen to Mr. Petrov, he is the one with his finger on the pulse of the market. If this was Just another Scott, it would not be worth doing. It is a Kornbrath engraved gun.....well worth putting right in my mind. Take the time to correspond with Mr. Petrov, he will point you in the right direction regarding this gun.
The subject gun was likely engraved by Joe Brown chief engraver for Webley and Scott or one of his contemporaries such as Harry Morris. Joe was possibly one of the finest engravers practicing in the first two decades of the 20th century.Joe was also the engraving instructor at the Aston Technical School during this era. Joe's work on the Scott Premier and Imperial Premier guns is still well regarded.
I should hope the engraving on this fine toe'mato stake is not a best example of his work....
