I was wondering if folks had any observations to share about which boxlocks never split at the stock head...and why some designs might stand the tests of time and recoil better than others.

Stated differently, assuming the wood selected for the butt is appropriately grained, are there any designs that split out more frequently?

TIA, Chris

Any gun with a through bolt is much less apt to split than stocks attached to the action in the traditional method due to the increase bearing surface afforded by the through bolt design. Savage made some Fox Sterlingworth guns with a through bolt in the last few years of production but they are not very common.

Least likely - Model 21



More examples here
http://www.picturetrail.com/sfx/album/view/15127852

That's a very interesting link. Some amazing 'reconstructive surgery' there..
Thanks for posting it Drew.
Back to the original post, I'd guess any Boxlock with oil damage at the head could potentially split or crack. Another good reason to use oil sparingly and store guns muzzle down. I'm still surprised by the number of people who will spray WD 40 (a water displacing rust preventer and lubricant) on their guns, give them a quick wipe and put them in the cabinet muzzle up.
The upside is it'll keep stockers in business for years to come, very probably barrel blackers and browners too.

It is a far better method to seal the head properly and then lube the moving parts as they should be. Muzzle down is simply good practice for storage but is no substitute for a properly sealed stock and/or lubed mechanism.

have a day

Dr.WtS

The same guns that have ribs that never lift and never double, the ones that ain't been built.

I believe amongst the strongest are boxlocks built with action rebates that the wood slips into. I'm thinking mostly of Webley & Scott 700's. the head of the stock is really held tight using the rebated action on each side of the top tang. Needless to say, any stock that has visible gaps at the head is a candidate for becoming kindling. I agree stocks with a through bolt are potentially the strongest but usually at the expense of a much thicker wrist.

Webley 700

have yet to see a browning bss with a cracked stock head. same goes for the russian baikal guns. most likely because these guns are relatively new and are designed for modern 3" mag ammo...

old stock heads usually crack, because the screws holding the wood to the metal are not torqued correctly...and because some idiot shot the hell out of the gun with modern heavy magnum loads.

Vintage LC Smith field grade doubles are worst offenders and foreign made guns with scaloped frames (French and Germans loved that feature). Not sure which ones are least prone to cracks but I would pick IZH clunker for that title.

LGS has Savage Sterlingworth in top shape with late style wood mid bead and 30" barrels. How can one tell w/o taking butt plate off whether it has bolt or not? Is there serial range, lesser fit (like in Winchester 23 vs BSS)?

I'm thinking the Red Label Waterfowler will never have a split in the head of the stock.

Having said that, not too many of the millions of Beretta O/Us that roam the earth have a crack in them. I'd say they are doing something right.

Best,
Ted

Well yes I don't think stainless Ruger O/U will have problems with polymer stock splitting. Great fowling guns by the way.

They haven't been around but about 15 years. The Huglu made stock panels are robustly wedged into the reciever. I have never seen one cracked and maybe never will if the stock bolt is kept snug.

W.W. Greener's answer to this problem was the side safety, so all that wood is not removed, that a tang safety requires. The safety itself, acts as a bolt through the cheeks, keeping the tangs from wedging it apart.

Keeping the screws tight is the key on any make. This obviously requires good wood that is not saturated with oil. Any boxlock can become cracked from a fall, misuse or downright abuse. We look at a double with crack(s) at the head area and think "poor design", when we have no earthly idea what abuse the old gal has undergone for decades. One fall, where the butt hits the ground laterally (and it usually does) while the wrist and for-end are being clenched tightly, and it either breaks then and there or cracks appear.

SRH

Its easier to fix a cracked stock than to put up with a Greener Side Safety In My "Not so Humble" Opinion.

I have never hunted with one, but it seems like you could carry it with the safety up, turned 90deg. from normal, and get along okay for fast action? Seems easier than a hammergun, and I get along fine with them. I think for a trap/pigeon gun, it would be fine, and help the wood stand up to thousands of heavy loads.

Unfortunately Baikal are not immune from stock head cracks even with a through bolt this is one of the very early over and under double trigger box lock models imported in to the UK in the 60s. This crack has been on my must fix it list for some thirty years but as the gun is one of my keepers it once belonged to a long time friend who is now telling those rather hilarious stories to any one who will listen in the here after. For the Brit readers Blaster Bates and any body reading you may like to listen to one of the best raconteurs Cheshire ever produced, you can get to know him on you tube try Blaster Bates “The Hunt”.

Greener suggested a hunter carry his gun with safety off and paying close attention to where it is pointed (Modern Breechloaders). Even he could not operate it fast enough on flushing game. But that was also how many suggested carrying hammer guns--fully cocked.

Never say never...

... but I'd venture a guess that drawbolt designs are less susceptible to cracking, in general.

"Tang Pinch" designs seem to be fine until the action gets loose. Then it splits a stock like Abe Lincoln.

I will answer your question if you can answer mine . How long is a piece of string ?

Point is I think , that the question can not be answered other than theoretically as we are dealing with many unknowns as well as a piece of natural material with no control over conditions of use or treatment . Some stocks seem to last the life of the gun others don't and I have no doubt that some due to the design and fitting are more prone to break than others . May be you should have asked "which stock heads are most prone to breaking "?

How long is a piece of string ?


No longer than it can be measured.

Another boxlock I can't recall seeing a panel crack is the later years of ther Fulton series. Like the Huglu the panels are wedged into the receiver but not as far.

But you can always Sleeve two bits (or more )of string together.
I'd say its like Gunman said,mostly dependent on the individual gun, the sum + fit of the parts that count, which would vary a wee bit with each gun of equal grade from the same maker.
Another answer might be.."Hopefully, mine!"
cheers
franc
I have had a few, & looked at many more Francottes & can't say I remember having seen one with head cracks...

I had one that cracked at the head; it actually split a piece off. I didn't take a picture, so I'll try to describe:

Looking at the gun from the top, barrel pointed away from you - the top, right corner of the head came off. The split was maybe halfway between the edge of the stock and the tang cutout. It split back, about two inches or so. The split went down at an angle, and back to the edge. Sort of a wedge-shaped piece.

The Huglu was a De Haan U5E, which Mark De Haan repaired under warranty. He offered to replace it, but for my own reasons, I chose repair. I've no idea why it split, there were no apparent problems.

I also had a Ruger Red Label 28 ga split in the head, though it stayed in one piece. Ruger replaced the stock at no charge. In this case, I think it may have been a slightly loose through-bolt that was responsible. The crack started at the right/rear of the upper tang and travels towards the trigger.

Here's a pic of the cracked RRL stock:

The distinguishing feature of the Savage built Fox-Sterlingworths with the "drawbolt" is the wide top tang with big screw head and kind of a notch in the profiling on the sides of the receiver just below the watertable --











To date, all the observed "drawbolt" Fox-Sterlingworths have been 12-gauges. The first batch is a bunch in the 133xxx serial number range, to date all observed with 30 inch barrels. Then another bunch in the upper 143xxx range with both 28- and 30-inch barrels, and finally a batch right at the end including the one shown, in the 1615xx range with 26-inch barrels. While most of the "Drawbolts" observed are double trigger plain extractor, a few have been observed with ejectors and one with both ejectors and a Fox-Kautzky single selective trigger.

Thank you for that information Researcher.

Originally Posted By: 2holer
They haven't been around but about 15 years. The Huglu made stock panels are robustly wedged into the reciever. I have never seen one cracked and maybe never will if the stock bolt is kept snug.

Quote:
I had one that cracked at the head; it actually split a piece off. I didn't take a picture, so I'll try to describe:

Looking at the gun from the top, barrel pointed away from you - the top, right corner of the head came off. The split was maybe halfway between the edge of the stock and the tang cutout. It split back, about two inches or so. The split went down at an angle, and back to the edge. Sort of a wedge-shaped piece."


Sounds like tha classic case of the wood not being mated well with the receiver and more recoil force was on the upper part or the stock bolt got a little loose.

I think we're back to the Model 21 with those thick tenons that go into the receiver. We still have to keep the tang screws tight, though.

I'm not sure about the best but the worst and most consistently bad is the Ithaca SKB. I think to a large degree due to the scalloped receiver.

I was re-reading some old posts and realized I never thanked everyone for sharing their observations. Thank you!

Here's what I took from the above...1) scalloped receivers are tough on wood, 2) screws and draw bolts need to be properly tightened, 3) wood to metal fit should be even all around the mating of stock head and receiver, and 4) rebated wood enclosed by the receiver is a big plus. And don't let the stock head become oil soaked...

My original question was not aimed at identifying any particular model to shy away from, but from wondering what designs have stood the test of time and not split out.

Thanks again.

Another factor could be if the inletted wood was sealed. This could prevent not only wood shrinkage, but oil soaking as well. Using a sealer, and possibly bedding the action appears to be fairly standard during restoration.

It might be tough to come up with a reliable answer as far as design, since all designs are subject to problems if the wood softens and/or shrinks.

The Ithaca SKB's do have a tendency to crack behind the scallops, although the cracks are mostly cosmetic, never seem to go too far. And those are through-bolt guns. Usually keeping the bolt tight does the job.

Someone mentioned BSS earlier. I can't recall ever having seen one of those with a cracked stock.

I think the winner is still going to be the Ruger Red Label Waterfowler.

Hands down.


Best,
Ted

deleted

One of mine came this way. So I had the head glass bedded and have since put approximately 1000 skeet loads through it, with no ill effect whatsoever.

Er, which? BSS or SKB?

There are two guns out there with the BSS label stuck on them-a boxlock and a sidelock. I don't know if they built enough of the sidelocks for us to get a clear picture of how often the stocks crack. But, James Flinn seems to think they are inletted quite well.

Best,
Ted

SKB

Most people don't think of the BSS Sidelock when they think BSS. I believe only around 2,000 made, total. And I agree, Ted, that we just don't see enough of those to get a handle on how often they're likely to crack behind the locks. The BSS Standard and Sporter boxlocks, however . . . you go to a decent-sized gun show and chances are pretty good there will be one or two. (Same for Ithaca SKB's.) Both very popular guns; both deservedly so. It's a darned shame the Japanese got out of the sxs business.

Baikal IZ43 and IZ58s are engineered for mass production, so they have parallel tangs, ie they do not wedge the stock apart, and circular wedge shaped stock cheeks that mate into equally wedge shaped action recesses. Recoild reinforces the fit, squeezing the wood inwards, not outwards.

Good idea on an inexpensive double, but ugly and for most people unacceptable on an upmarket SXS. So the wedge tang rules alond with inevitable cracking losses.

Larry,
Check your PMs.
Best,
Ted