A new English maker, Boxall & Edmiston is produce some really pretty pieces. It really is astounding what new technology can accomplish.

I'm amazed as how far the machining of the action and stock can go before a human hand touches it. And the engraving aint bad either. Another new English gunmaker, Longthorne, even produces their barrels from a single piece of steel.

Thought yall might enjoy a couple videos and photos.

http://youtu.be/KIqypCc0jzc

http://youtu.be/Hrgq1gb7ki4

A few guns from their line-up.....

I dunno. The biggest asset of English gunmaking are such names as Purdey and Holland, and the greatest value of these names is that everybody knows what they are and how much they cost. Say "I've got me a brand-new Holland", and everybody knows right there where you stand on the social ladder. Say "Boxal and Edminson", and most people will go "a what?" Admittedly, there are people out there who want a gun that looks and feels (and is) a classic Brit double, not a gun with a name that says "I cost a ton of cash". The question is, are these people numerous enough to make a market for these guns?

I was all set to put my money where my mouth was on a new B&E over under until I inspected it at the gamefair this year. The photos to date don't show the detail and the final finish, wood to metal and metal to metal fit on these guns is terrible, if not embarrassing.

I actively support anyone struggling to break into the English gun manufacturing market, we need new blood, but sadly Humpty is right. The name has it all, anyone buying a new Purdey, Holland, Boss etc. knows they can cash out tomorrow if required.

The boxlock is certainly not the way to go. Boxlock ejectors here on the second hand market are very undervalued for what they represent. Anywhere between £1,500 and £2,000 will pick up one by a known and respected maker in excellent condition and can always be sold on again for no real loss. A brand new boxlock ejector, like the one above, will take a dramatic drop in value as soon as it is bought. Lagopus.....

The "made in England" tag on a second tier shotguna adds a little prestige, but not enough to outprice a Perazzi!

The field in which these new English firms compete is where Chapuis, Verney Carron, Beretta, Perazzi, and similar names have been building their brands for decdes. What more do these new firms bring to the table is not clear.

I got my Italian, hand finished, boxlock ejector for a fraction of what B&E charge, and it has signed engraving by a top Italian engraver, not a machine.

"there are people out there who want a gun that looks and feels (and is) a classic Brit double"

True, and the challenge is can this be made at a competitive price, because "made in England" is not enough on an unknown make.

I believe that technically it is possible to make a fine balanced SXS on a trigger plate action for less than 5000 USD. Practically it is not because as the new makers approach shows, they bank disproportinately on the "made in" tag and not enough on the actual object.

I will risk some flaming and say that if the balance, handling and mechanical quality are the only criteria, and we leave out fine wood and engraving and some other obsessions, then a fine handling double can even be made to sell for less than 3000 US. Doable but difficult when advertising is visual and the qualities of such a gun mostly tactile.

They need to take a lesson from Tony Galazan. His intro 20 gauge RBL was a success, and he has been able to compete with established brands at his price point through good customer service and improving quality. IMO, others may differ. Wonder if he has a hand in this venture?

Tony Galazzan knows the difference between custom made and hand made. Sounds simple, but it isn't.

IMHO they would be ill advised to follow a lesson from Galazan.

The B&E guns are reminiscent of offerings from Caesar Guerini...only more costly.

Hey, I thought all Brits shot low gun !!

Interesting thread.

I have put my money where my mouth is and placed an order - twelve months ago. This was after a huge amount of consideration about competiting options in the market (both modern and used), and as a passionate user of English side/sides, hammerguns and big bores, I am not a solely O/U focused shot. I have also shot for 29 years, so I would hope I know what floats my boat when it comes to guns.

The versions at the 2013 Game Fair were generally either prototypes (i.e. the 20 bore O/U), or unfinished customer guns - of which mine was (proudly) one. When I first tried these guns 14 months back, the wood to metal/general finish was poor - but this was entirely due to the fact that the guns were early prototypes and B&E were not trying to disguise that. Peter Boxall has too solid a reputation to deliver a product which is out of whack or so materially poor - and frankly, I would not pay for such a product.

The logic I had when entering this market was a very keen, lifelong desire to own an English gun, for the long term, which represented a highly bespoke, affordable (to me), shootable gun to cherish and enjoy for the future. I have enjoyed the manufacturing process to date and can honestly say everything I have wanted has been possible. So "bespoke" is correct - and not simply selecting/fitting your stock blank which is as far as it goes for some. Resale value is not my primary consideration - enjoyment of the wider experience of ordering and ownership is.

This is not a post to say the Boxall and Edmiston is for everyone. It absolutely is not. However, it was and is for me, the right gun - and for a significant number of other shots who have placed and are now starting to take delivery of, their orders. B&E are not trying to compete with Purdey/Holland/Boss and this has never been their mission. They are equally not seeking to compete with Perazzi/Beretta who produce some stunning guns - but not English, and not nearly as bespoke for the price. The Beretta Jubilee is a case in point.

Ultimately, I am delighted to see new entrants into the ranks. Longthorne are also to be congratulated in this - it is not an easy task. But for the price point of between £10-£18/20k, I believe both names are worthy of consideration.

Fletchedpair,
Interesting comments, perhaps you could explain in greater detail what irritated you and on which models?
I was particularly intrigued by your comments as I know that B&E are made utilising modern machining practices instigated by the former Engineering and machine shop manager of Holland & Holland, a designer and engineer instrumental in the manufacture and production techniques used in the McLaren MP4-12C Supercar, barrels made by a former Purdey man, stocking by a former H&H stocker, checkering by probably THE finest, and finishing by a Gunmaker who is in his own right one of the finest. I cannot believe that they all had a bad day to produce guns that caused you to be so critical? In deed constructive criticism is welcomed and appreciated.
I notice that you are a stocker by trade, perhaps we could see some examples of quality that meets with your approval.
Let us clarify one thing B&E may use modern machining techniques as indeed do Purdey , H&H, Boss, Perazzi, Piotti, but it is still down to hand skills to assemble and finish the final product.

Hi Salopian,

Can't disagree with your remarks on manufacture and production techniques in this case but lets be clear, I wasn't commenting on this aspect.

Also, your observation on the assembly by best outworker craftsmen is correct but this applies to their boxlock and sidelock guns, hence the cost. They are stocked and finished to best standard in my critical eyes. Can I draw your attention the the B&E factory tour video on Youtube, here you can the O/U's being assembled and stocked and finished in-house.

The O/U's was where my criticism was. CBL1 has offered up an explanation that these were likely prototype guns and hence the fit and finish was not great. I don't quite agree with this as there was more than one and why would you use these to showcase your product and turn off potential buyers? Anyway, this is all an just an opinion offered up, maybe someone else saw the same.

CBL1 - I did not mean any disrespect in your choice of gun and purchase, I think it will be a really nice addition to your collection.

Fletchedpair,
Thank you for your observations and opinion.
If no one complains, you can become a little complacent, so it all bodes well for the future. Haven't seen the Youtube video, so I will now look.
I do have to agree that it is probably impossible to satisfy everyone's desires and taste, but as long as we try and improve then the criticism will be taken care of.

I too, as did J-P saw video shots that a prudent person would have deleted such as chipped wood at the back of the strap.

However, I was also amazed several years ago at the Boss photo of their in their O/U advert where what appeared to be scoring marks on the lumps of the barrels of the new gun was "grinning" back at me (as the Brum gunmakers are fond of saying). Subsequently, I have noticed that Boss and its photographer has "photo shop" edited the photo to make the lumps darker and harder to see the scratches.

I suspect there was a lot of discussion down at the Kew bridge workshops about that advert photo.

"Perazzi/Beretta who produce some stunning guns - but not English, and not nearly as bespoke for the price."

This phrase confuses me. Perazzi will let you choose wood from a vast selection of blanks, engraving which will be by hand and signed, the gun will be shot for POI and POA by the client and finally adjusted till the fit is perfect. How is that less bespoke than any other?

"Stunning but not English" for some international buyers may be a positive characteristic. Failing to see this may be the problem for the new British makers.

I always thought bespoke went further than simply fit and finish. Want disc set strikers or ones intergal with hammers? OK. Unusual barrel length - no problem. Action slightly lighter and skimmier - consider it done. Two barrel sets, one 16 and one 20 3", each weighing the same and the gun feeling the same? We'll see what we could do. Remember that Purdey .303 DR with Beesley action operated by a rotary underlever? That's bespoke for me; fitting the stock on a gun otherwise identical to all others is only tuning.

Humpty Dumpty,

Your assumptions about bespoke echo mine before I started asking awkward questions. Such as:

If I supply you the stock blank, taking the risk of any mishaps due to fualty aging, and want it delivered unfinished, uncheckered, can it be done?

Can I have it totally unenegraved?

Extractor not ejector?

The response invariably was yes, but it will cost MORE because it forces deviation from our normla production process. What normal production process is used in the making of "bespoke" guns? What adds to the cost by NOT doing costly work like building and timing ejectors, engraving, stock finishing? Why not credit the buyer with the cost of the stock blank at least!

After a few of these responses I got the idea. And it was about then I came across Bob Brister's comments that if you have not been diddled by a gunmaker you haven't lived. It was written in response to the comment "our clients do not close their own guns" he and some friends got at a London establishment when they pointed out that self openers tend to be hard closers. So I was in good company.

Something is not right in this bespoke game.

Comparisons are inevitable. A Ferrari is 2 tons of hand worked metal, with blue printed engines, and lots of specialised hand work. The upholstery has over a million hand stitches. Cost per kilogram 200 bucks, cost per kilogram of a bespoke gun 40 000 USD.

No way I will accept that the brazing and finishing of two shotgun barrels is anywhere near as complicated as the fitting of 12 cylinders in a bluprinted engine. Credulity has its limits.

Thanks for posting the video, Adam. Interesting stuff, and I wish those guys the best. I might gently suggest that in these times of Blair and Cameron 'British-made' no longer carries the cachet that it did in the days of Empire and Raj, at least not outside the United Kingdom. Within the UK perhaps it will still count for something.

And that's a great Bob Brister quote. That guy may have forgotten more about shotguns than most of us will ever know. And he sure wrote well (even when the blood alcohol content was a bit elevated, which wasn't unusual). He was no skeptic of things British (the A in the BAC would have been Chivas), and I'm sure his jab at snooty gunroom clerks was friendly. But it does allude to an uncomfortable truth. Things have gotten a bit checkered.

No disrespect taken at all - this is a measured debate but one which merits a number of inputs. I am delighted with my choice and the thought process behind it - but the proof will be in the shooting this season. I also echo Salopians comments on this being a learning experience. I knew when I placed my order that could be bumps along the road and when I originally test fired the gun, we did have early challenges. The gun at the Game Fair was also far from the final article - it had not been close to going to finishing. But happy to date, and I await collection soon (app 12-13 mths from order). And if I am not happy, I have the confidence in Peter and team that things can be fixed.

With respect to "bespoke", the following are indications of where I believe B&E are going over and above what some of the other comparable manufacturers are offering - for the price;

- selection of ribless barrels (try asking for that from a number of greater volume manufacturers and it is much more challenging)
- selection of Anson push-rod when Deeley catch was originally only option offered. This took an extra two months of manufacturing to perfect.
- barrel length whatever I wanted - I went for 32", but could have gone up or down, and anything in between.
- I could also have chosen the stock without chequering should I have wished; it looks stunning, but try shooting it in wet weather!
- A host of smaller, primarily cosmetic items, but still to my requirements - trigger type (single/double), trigger width, safety catch style, stock grip cap, stock shield/eschutcheon, bright or dark action.

If I had wanted, I could also have left the barrels in the white (i.e. not blacked) or had them browned.

Perazzi and others all offer bespoke options (which are indeed superb), but if you want an SCO with bespoke wood and engraving, then be prepared to pay a significantly higher amount than B&E are charging. I know because I looked into it, notably with an HPX high-pheasant gun. Personalised engraving is often stunning, but my pocket can't stretch to hand-engraving which would have added £5-£10k to this gun (and therefore making it unattainable/unrealistic).

The quote attributed to Bob Brister is stolen from Greener. Anecdotally it was a response from Purdey to Greener when the observation was posed about the hard closing of self openers. Greener reputedly answers, 'So you admit you have a problem".

If you can't close a self-opener quickly and easily, it is either set up wrong or your technique is wrong. It is easy to learn, if a tiny bit different. Far too much has been made of the observation. In my experience, it is a total non-issue.

Sorry if that was a bit off tangent. One of my pet hates is repeated observations from historical literature passed off as originally observed truth. It perpetuates myths. It is unreliable and, IMO, spurious.

I'd agree that if mutual, it would be reasonable to get some partial credit (not market) for a service that was deleted, but there could be reasonable business decisions by the maker. If a maker has a wait list anyway, it might be an unreasonable risk to the reputation, name, to have an improperly finished gun being criticized out in the marketplace. I'd assume if it's the bespoke game, the thing that someone would not want deleted would be the name.

I have to offer a mild defense of the journalistic integrity of the late Bob Brister, who in many ways was a piece of work and perhaps guilty of the occasional side slip. But not on this occasion. He stole nothing.

He didn't claim the quote for himself. He attributed it to a gunroom representative, as an illustration of a broader point he was making. Perhaps the clerk 'stole' the quote or used it without attribution. It would hardly be the first time a gun salesman left something out to overcome a potential customer's objection. Or perhaps the sales clerk didn't. In any event, an attribution to Greener would have been irrelevant to the point Brister was making. And sales patter is hardly subject to the same citation standards as scholarship published in an academic journal.

In response to a witty statement by James McNeill Whistler, Oscar Wilde said “I wish I’d said that,” to which Whistler replied: “You will, Oscar, you will!”

No offence intended to BB, juts the quote being attributed to him here.

The quote from Brister as I recall was written in American diction "sure is hard to close" is more American phrasing than English. Us non native speakers tend to notice these details.

As to the subject matter at hand:

Innovation as in laser engraving, CNC machinery and the like, is a good thing, as long as the people using it are gunmakers. To draw a parallel from experience, computer graphics are a good thing when used by trained graphic artists. Untrained people tend to overuse the features of software like Photoshop and Corel and I have seen the same unnecessary overuse by some machinists and CAD draftsmen.

I wonder if there is a buying public for an economy double built by gunmakers using modern means but still having that crafted feel and look. That it can be done is not the issue, but how many would buy it. Having seen how many keep a safe full of top guns and hunt with a gas auto I wonder about the size of the potential market.

You have summed it up well thre. The B&E over/under is a British gun, built by a British firm from British parts and materials (not the wood obviously).

Pete Boxall understands the machinery and they have just recruited a gunmaker from Holland & Holland to oversee the final finishing and input whre required. Mike Yardley advised on the stock shape and handling. So, the gun is being made with a good deal of British tradition and gunmaking know-how behind it. It is priced to compete with European guns at a price point well below the nearest British O/U availale elsewhere.

The market will show us if there is sufficient interest in the product at the price. Time will tell.

At the Game Fair I took the opportunity to look at both the B&E and the Longthorne offerings. For their prices, I was impressed with what they produced.

The feeling is of an artisan shop with a small number of dedicated, knowledgeable and skilled professionals, including software operators, as well as gunsmiths. Each contribute to the service and product offered.

I was especially impressed with the 27 kilogram steel (from Sweden incidentally!) billet that Longthorne shape, polish, drill and black to form their tubes. With modern machinery and engineering tolerances the barrels should be regulated exceptionally well. In addition, they are much lighter than normal; 1,240 grams with a wall thickness of 38-42 thou for 30" barrels, against typically 1,490 grams for a similar spec Italian set.

If I was in the market for a new gun to use I would have both these English firms on my shortlist. I rather like my old hand me downs though!

Tim

Why when a discussion arises about the british gun trade do people automatically talk about the big three eg. Purdey , holland and boss ? In the trades hay day in late victorian and edwardian times there were dozens of provincial and london/birmingham gunmakers who's products might not have been quite up to the standard of the big three but were very good never the less. Stephen grant, rigby's , charles hellis, philip webley, lancaster, edwinson green etc etc.
Maybe B&E had the sense to do a bit of market research and realise there is no room for a young upstart in the high-end of the market, seeing this as a road to ruin (symes and wright springs to mind) , but there might be a niche for a largely machine made but hand finished gun. Purdey themselves have gone down this path with some of their guns now made in italy.

Tim's final comment is an excellent illustration of an important point. The competition that these new gun makers face isn't just from fine foreign firms, it's also from old hand me downs. The useful life of a lightly used, well maintained gun that was first class when made is pretty close to indefinite. By way of analogy--the current makers of Steinway pianos (the very good brand of piano) have frequently said that their toughest competitors are not the Asian piano builders (who are capable of making very good pianos themselves) but the used Steinways of previous eras, when they have been reconditioned, refurbished and rebuilt.

As for the question of whether there is a public market for an economy double built using modern techniques but with a traditional feel to it, I think the answer is 'yes'. But I'm not sure that the B&E offerings, at their price points, are 'economy' guns by any measure except comparison to a very rarified peer group. I can say that, if one wants such an economy double for less than USD 1k, the answer is spelled Huglu. If you want to define the economy price point as less than USD 10k, the answer is spelled CSMC (and there are other answers, as well--many of them being from Brescia). As I indicated, I personally have a little trouble calling B&E price range 'economy' anything.

And I would concur - B&E are not marketing themselves as economy guns in any way shape or form. Guns with a starting price point of c£12k don't qualify as "economy" and are a serious £outlay - which Boxall and Edmiston recognise and tailor their offer accordingly to ensure the customer gets a suitably personal/bespoke experience.

There are some superb guns in the UK market which fit this moniker a lot better (Beretta Silver Pigeon, Guerini guns, Brownings etc) - but they are fully machine made, not bespoke, and you pay for what you get - usually around the £1.5-£2k point. I would equally agree this can buy a very nice 2nd hand boxlock.

As Diggory points out, time will tell. There currently does appear a demand (in the UK) for these guns at this price point, but as costs creep up and influence pricing, things could change. Notwithstanding, there does seem to be a space in the market for a high quality, bespoke gun of real quality and with considerable craftsmanship included in the process. This is not simply Longthorne or B&E - but also includes Perazzis, Churchills, William Evans etc.

The economy I had in mind is exemplified by a hammer gun discussed with Mr Boniotti in Gardone a few years ago. Rounded bar, peninsula locks, and could be offered with Boehler monobloc barrels, unengraved, plainish American walnut stock. This was a diversion from the usual specs but Mr Boniotti was willing to do it and at about half the regular price which was 5000 USD for the full deal back then. Two or three thousand for such a gunmaker made gun is economy of sorts.

Naturally we are talking a using double and not an heirloom. Not a "best" by any means but no Huglu either.

I handled a B & E, SxS boxlock at the Southern SxS a couple of years ago. I thought it was a nice enough gun and that you were paying for what you were getting. At the time, if they could have made me a 16 bore on a scaled 16 frame I would have bought it.

By way of brief update, and after having used my Boxall and Edmiston for the past 8 months, I am delighted and remain very much proud of the gun but also in the underlying decision to go this route.

The market reaction to date has been very positive (see various online reviews from the shooting press) for the products B&E is making, and the order book remains very healthy - enough to now see waiting lists of 18mths which is encouraging not only for them but for the British gun trade in more general terms.

I won't deny there have been some minor teething issues early on in my ownership (sticky ejector fixed, original outsourced blacking poor so re-done completely in-house at no charge), but I expected this given it was the 2nd O/U they had made; in addition, I had the confidence in B&E that the personal service offered would ensure any issues were rapidly rectified which has been the case. B&E are also very much open-all-hours, so when I had feedback or issues arose, I could simply pick up the phone, discuss it, and know it would be fixed. Not always the case with a gun, and even for some at greater price points.

As mentioned previously, these aren't for everyone. I fully accept that these are not hand-made Purdeys or Boss' or that they have machine-engraving (instead of hand-engraving) as per some recent posts/comments. However, at the price point offered, they remain a very cohesive option when placed against comparable offerings, and I for one have no regrets.

Congrats on the new gun. I'm glad it's working out for you.

How about some pics?

OWD

some time ago (+-2009)you posted photos and queries regarding a fine E M Reilly side by side. This gun was owned by me and put up for Auction on Holts in about 2007. I live in Cape Town, South Africa and purchased it in 1998 from a guy in Port Elizabeth who in turn had purchased it at an auction in Johannesburg many years ago. So don't have much to add other than that the gun spent many years in South Africa. I used it on a few occasions for pigeon shooting and on the skeet range.

What a lovely post and thank you Jonathan. This was the thread -

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...7072#Post157072

I had no idea of the rich and fascinating heritage of that Reilly, and the fact it had lived overseas for so long belies its immaculate condition. I am ashamed to say I no longer own the gun - I really enjoyed owning it and used it for 3 shooting seasons here in the UK; I ultimately sold it 2 years ago, via Diggory Hadoke, to a very nice American who resides in Houston and I'm told still uses the gun in the field. However, it was too nice to sit around - and I wanted to use the funds from its sale to purchase my Boxall and Edmiston last year (a 14 month process from specification to final delivery).

I was proud to be a custodian of the Reilly and hope it continues to outlast its (many) owners.

It was indeed a sad day when I parted with it but am pleased that it is in good hands and "working".
But as luck would have it I acquired another very similar E M Reilly shortly thereafter from a backwater gun shop. It is in very good condition with beautiful damascus barrels but is missing it's original case and is not quite as well engraved. I am not using it so may well sell it on as all my shooting revolves around clay target (Valley gun club) and black powder and I must admit to having lost enthusiasm to shoot birds.