It's my perception from the comments here that a large number of us are looking for a light, handy 410 ....... I've been looking for a long time and a lot of comments have been made here about similar quests. I've even broadened my parameters (G * D help me) to a Rem 17 pump. I almost had the 17 but the guy backed out and sent me back my check. I've been looking at the new ones but they all look clunky. So how many of you am I competing with? BTW my holy grail is a NID or a D. LeFever ......

Al

Was the Remington model 17 made in .410? I'm anything BUT a Remington expert but I never heard of one. 12 and 20, yes. But .410??? There's no mention of one in the Blue Book, either. Maybe the "seller" backed out because he didn't have the gun? First, make up your mind if you want a pump or a SxS, then go after what you decide on. If you want a pump there are lots of them out there: original model 42 Winchesters and Browning's repro M42(a better shooting gun, IMO, than the original because it's heavier). SxS could be any number of used guns, new ones include several models from Ugartechea(my choice in entry level class) plus all the apcray(IMO) from Baikal and Huglu, so many drool over.

I've got 2 42's. One has youth stock for my sons to learn on and now my grandsons. The other is kind of fancy with Mod. chock. It's hell on doves!

Remington 17's are 20ga. only.........I think!

Just looked on the Remington Society site. As Battle said, they were made in 20 ga. only.

Pre-64 M42s are going nuts. A 98% honest 26" full choke post-war specimen went for $2300 on gunbroker a coupla weeks ago. Marginally 90% guns are bringing $1200 on that site. A typical pre-64 field grade (no rib) will weigh between 5# 14oz and 6# even. I'm not sure if this meets your "light, handy" criteria.

JL mentioned repros. I have handled a few, and saw nothing to complain about. The rib adds a bit of weight. But repro prices are climbing too.

Sam

Bought a Remington 11-48 .410 25" vent. rib barrel for $103.00 when I was in the service in Germany. Shot it over there at 10 lb. hares, Mallards, a few Cinammon Teal, Hungarian partridge, and a pheasant. Sent it home and used it here mainly for quail when I lived in N.J. Missed getting a triple one day, missed the easiest crossing left to right shot on a cock quail not 20 yards away. The other two were a lot harder. Used it for pen raised pheasants also. Nice gun haven't shot it in 20 years. Would like to have a nice double though.

Now that I have mine, I will recommend that everyone find their Model 42, quick. Actually, I have way more than "mine". I love them.

When I was 12 one of my Grandfathers gave me two trained rabbit beagles and a Marlin model 410 lever action .410 shotgun. I killed many a cottontail and canecutter with it and still use it every year for squirrels or something. Everyone needs a .410.

This Marlin, I've later learned was a "premium" given by the company to anyone who'd buy 4 shares of Marlin company stock during the Great Depression. It is built on a Marlin 1893 rifle action and only shoots 2.5 inch shells.

After the "premium" program ended, the company catalogued the gun for a limited period of time. I'm pretty sure mine must have been a stock premium gun though because the serial number is only 3 digits and the fore end is a rifle type rather than a beavertail. There is a new production of the same gun by Marlin that folks wanting a useful .410 might consider...Geo

George, what is a canecutter ?

Big ole rabbit. Not a cottontail, but a separate species. Sometimes its called a swamp rabbit. They hang around the water and will lead a dog on a real swim sometimes. It's about 1 and a half times the size of a cottontail, runs differently from a cottontail, and has a little solid brown tail rather than a white tail. There's also another rabbit around here called a marsh rabbit that lives in the spartina marshes on the coast. You probably have those on the Texas coast too...Geo

Not George, but a canecutter is a southern name for the "Swamp Rabbit", close relative I believe for the snowshoe hare, much larger than cotton tails. So called because of their likeing of of river bottoms covered up with river cane, a bamboo relative I think.
Bouvier; You will not find a D Lefever in .410 either, the Ithaca, Nitro Special was made in .410, but not the "Real" Lefevers, they only built shotguns.
Not all of us have an urge for one.

There are quite a few on Gunbroker. Probably some on Gunsamerica, if you can find them through the difficult mess they've made out of one of the formerly best sites. I've sent Gunsamerica some e-mails, telling them how much I dislike the new program. They responded like they were actually interested in my comments. Maybe if enough of us send them e-mails they will bring back the old, easy program. That's assuming others don't like it the new way, too.

Thank y'all for the canecutter lesson, my Father is from West Tennesee, so I know about a Swamp Rabbit. We may have some over in East Texas - but not around here.

As an aside, my Dad moved to Texas when he was about 16 years old, and brought his rabbit dog, a beagle. He took his pooch rabbit hunting and jumped up a Jack Rabbit, he said his dog just would look at the Jack and then turn and look at him, like what have you got me into.

Well, Bouvier,
I'm never really in the market for a 410, but I always keep an eye out for a nice one. I have a couple Lefever Nitro Specials in 410, a Crescent, and a nice plain barreled M42. After this season's success with one of the pretty little Nitro 410's, I may be looking for a Arrietta or similar next season.

I don't want a 410. I don't want a 28 gauge, either. Remington 17s are only 20 gauge guns.

When I was just a kid with a single shot 12, a neighbor of my folks who claimed a .410 was all one needed for grouse (I missed plenty with my little single 12) used to come home with questionable limits of grouse-say 50-75 for the weekend. This was before the TIP (turn in poachers) program. I found out from one of his kids that they hunted pretty far north on a big spread of private ground, and 'ol Pop only shot grouse out of the trees with, you guessed it, his 410.
The guy was and is a backyard breeder of Springers, I hope they got more work then picking up tree potted grouse, but, can't comment on that.
Never did like the guy, even before I found that out. I never warmed up to a 410, either. Plus, the price of ammunition sticks in my craw.
You guys can have mine.
Best,
Ted

I know I'm loosing it now. I did a web search for Swamp Rabbit... Turns out they are potentially lethal!
http://www.newsoftheodd.com/article1021.html
George, with rabbits like that, you may need more than a .410

Pete

OK, OK ..... I should have checked the Rem site BEFORE I sent the check ..... The guy who "found" it for me found me a very nice Nitro 16 ..... at least I got the check back. I'll forgive him if he can find me a Nitro 410.

I check most of the usual places, though I've just about given up on GA. In addition to being a nice light bunny gun I want this gun to be something I can lend visitors for a walk in the woods ..... that lets them shoot without pain or the bigger bang of a 20 or 12. ..... and also because I think it will make me work a little harder to make good shots.

Al

Interesting there about that King of Jerusalem, Fulks, being my last name. Has always been debated whether my ancestors were German or French, but no mention of being Jewish. Sure do love Pork, Crawdads, & a lot of other "Unclean Creeping Things".

I love the 410. I own several that I can recommend. Remington 1100 no choke tubes, H&R topper single shot, Remington 870 pump, and Beretta 687 EL Gold Pigeon II. I do not own a SxS yet in this guage, waiting for the right English or American gun. I think that this is one of the best guages for game farm birds.

I'm with Ted on the .410 issue. Am not a good enough shot to center a bird in that thin pattern. You guys who love them, fess up: how many birds fly off with a pellet or two in their guts? A twenty is as small as I'll go. Just my tcw. Chopper

The pen raised birds come down pretty easy, I'll admit, but, I would still prefer 'em dead on impact.

Come to think of it, my smallest guns are 20s, chopper.

I don't, as a rule, "hunt" pen raised birds however, and can leave the gauge decision to whoever trained the dogs on the place...
Best,
Ted

I'm with Ted, too, at least on the .410. The 28 ga is great gun though, and plenty of gun for plenty of animals and lay targets.


The problem with a .410 is the same problem you get with a .25ACP. If you shoot somebody with it, they could get upset or even worse they could eventually get an infection.

"...they could get an infection" LOL, good one Greg.

C'mon Greg, shot coming out of a 410 barrel is going the same velocity as out of a 12ga. The 25acp analogy doesn't hold up. In the case of the 25acp, the projectile doesn't have the energy required to penetrate the distance needed. That's not the case for the 410. Same size shot going the same velocity as a 12ga. in most cases.

It's more a case of taking a longer than usual shot with whatever weapon of choice, whether handgun, rifle, or bow. A reduced angular error that is tolerable, that's all.

If game in the bag is the goal, it cuts against all those that say they don't need lots of game in the bag to enjoy. If zero wounded game is the only acceptable outcome, hunting with any shotgun is not for that person.

Gauge snobbery or payload elitism? Thankfully, we are all still allowed to assess our own abilities. As it happens, my percentage of birds bagged to shots taken is highest with the 3" .410.

Maybe respect for a gun's range limitations is what matters most.

Agree with Chuck.

Sam

No, you guys can have all of them you want. I would say for country squirrels at a few paces, or dump shooting rats in the hood, they'd be okay!

In reading everyones post, I can see that most do like the .410. I'm close to 61 yrs. old. Have been hunting since I was 14. Started off with a 12 ga J.C. Higgins pump, ventilated rib poly choke, probably weighs over 7 1/2 lbs. hunted one year only with it. Too heavy. Went to a J.C. Higgins 20 ga. ventilated rib, single non-selective trigger (Savage-Fox) weighs about a pound plus lighter, hunted quite a few years with that. Over the years collected more guns, but have never hunted upland game with a 12 ga again. Favorite gun to use now on pen raised pheasants, chucker is a 28 ga. Between the 20 ga. and the 28 ga., you're only talking 1/8 oz different in shot. I'd have to look in my journals, but I can tell you that I killed hundreds of pheasants with the 28 ga, #8, #9 shot.
The whole thing about small guages is that you have to know your limitations. Even though they were pen raised pheasants, they have a lot of fat on them, big birds, slow to get up, and make easy targets over a pointing dog, you still have to center your shots. Yes, there were cripples, but that is why you have good dogs, so that they are not lost. Wild pheasants that I've hunted years ago in Pa. are different, only because you don't get many of the easy shots. A 20 ga with a little heavier load and # 6 shot. Hunting woodcock, they only way to hunt them is with a 28ga. or .410 IMO. I do like the .410, it has it's place, and I do like them, but not for everything. Also I use 3" shells with 11/16oz of shot, not the 2 1/2" with 1/2 oz. shot.

Well, OK. I wouldn't mind a .410 but it's far down on my list as there are so many other guns I'd rather have.

This post comes up often enough that I'm beginning to see the parable that is really the underlying question.

Hunting wild birds, in real conditions, or pen raised birds in synthetic conditions.

For me, the last few weeks of pheasant hunting, after the slews have frozen up enough to support a hunter and a dog, are the best part of the season. If the temp is quite a bit below freezing, so much the better. The birds have been shot at a few times, and it no more resembles the dipiction of pheasant hunting that one sees on television than Neil Armstrong's putt on the moon resembles golfing. In truly cold wheather, shotshell performance deteriorates. I wish there was a study I could cite, but, all I have is experience as teacher on that point. But, I understand a winged wild rooster, in a foot of fresh powder, at zero degrees, is a far, far different animal than a pen bird in milder conditions. For dog, and hunter. The ruffed grouse,(can they be pen raised?) later in the season, develop a habit of getting up well out of range also. Earlier, the cover tends to be quite heavy, and the fields more crowded. I pass on the earlier part of both bird seasons. I've used 20 on pheasants in the past but, in recent seasons, have stuck to the 16s and 12s, usually with an ounce, and an ounce and an eighth, respectively. Less legwork for me and the dog involved, over the course of the season.
So, to reiterate, you guys that can put the 410 to good use, can have them. I usually can't. I'm really sorry for those that haven't experienced a truly wild, cold conditions pheasant or grouse hunt. It is wonderful. But no place for a subgauge. Snowshoes, sometimes, if we are lucky.
Best,
Ted

Muskrat?

Ted, Bob Brister in his shotgun text book Shotgunning the Art and Science talks about the cold weather and declining performance. But hey I wouldn't shoot mallards with a 410, but they are fun in the right situation. The only drawback to Argintina doves is loading those little shells:)

Ted,
You make a good point. Those midwinter phez must be tough just to make it out there. I doubt I'd go after them with anything but a 12ga. While I've use one of my 410's to take a single phez, wild South Dakota phez at that, I wouldn't likely make it a regular event.

My use for a 410 has been for wild Calif Valley quail and recently Gambels quail. I'm finding my bag take didn't suffer much from using a 20ga. I'll admit, using the 410 has been a novelty. But then, all of my hunting is for my novel enjoyment.

I only have one 410, it's an 870 Wingmaster and for reference it weighs 6.5 ibs.. I have both 12 and 20 sxs's that weigh less and handle better so the 410 sees little use. My son does like to use it on ocassion to humiliate the old man, though.

Yep, those .410's are useless - won't kill a thing.



Especially not big birds:



Missing all those birds messes up the dogs, too:



I think you guys should sell all your .410's.

Nice gun. Who stocked and engraved such a .410?

The Missouri Conservation Magazine(where MM had his start) had an article on the early days of the regulated deer hunting season. The deer in those days were few and far in numbers, so not many pure deer rifles were about, and the ever present farmer's .22L rimfire rifle was pressed into action.
Anything can happen, even with a 410.

Murph,
That looks very much like some of Angelo Bee's work.

The short answer to your original question is 'Yes'.

I have alot of people asking me for a double .410 - either hammer or hammerless but they want adecent quality gun ata low price - rather than a 'best' gun at a high price or a cheap, low grade gun at whatever price (generally too high).

The problem is supply and demand - there are not many good .410s around in good nick and those there are, are expensive - so people baulk at the price in comparison to the quality. As a result, they think they want a .410 but they don't want to buy what is available for what it costs and therefore do not have a .410, but still think they want one.

Another problem is that everyone wants a 'man size .410' with original long stock and barrels - hen's teeth are easier to find. And they want them proofed for modern, long cartridges, which almost none were originally.

Of course, some people know all this and do buy the available guns at the prices asked, but more do not.

""The short answer to your original question is 'Yes'.""

Note the original question said "Is "EVERYONE"" so the short answer is "NO". There's at least Ted & I. Even my wife when she was able to get out & hunt with me some, always wanted a 28ga but never a .410 so make it at least three.

Sorry, I was being imprecise! I meant everyone except me, you, Ted and your wife. Actually, I meant 'A lot of people'.

I sold one on saturday when I went to help on a shotgun Proficiency course at Wiltshire College. the lady who bought it could actually hit the clays with it - not sure I could!

I sell a lot of Webley & Scott .410 bolt actions - to my mind the best value .410 available. Indestructable, nice handling and no recoil. For £100 a time, they go as fast as I can get them through.

I started shooting a 12-bore when I was twelve or thirteen - saw no point fiddling around with rat guns on a game shoot. Still don't - but I have no problem with those who want to.

Three years ago I blundered into a 410 Uggie (American Imports - Falcon). Must be the twin to Jim Legg's gun. The guy who owned the shop had a low opinion of Spanish guns in general, and made me a decent deal on it. It's fun. Weighs 5-12 and is therefore shootable... I've had a couple offers to buy it... one gun that I could make a nickel on.

Miller,
At this point in the ball game, I can't think of a gun I do want. I do wish I had more time to use the odd little assortment I've accumulated up to now.
Doubles, and pumps. More of both types than I need. No 410s.

The only thing missing from Mr. Hartman's photos are the bluebirds singing in the background. Those are the fatest, prettiest, dumbest looking pheasants I've ever laid eyes on-could they fly? I thought they may be a special breed of "photography pheasants" that you club with the gun just before the photo, so as not to get the gun dirty prior to the photo.

Just kidding, 'sort of. Nice pictures, by the way.
Best,
Ted

I'm planning my Second Childhood...maybe it's my third Childhood.

I went down the Harley Davidson road years ago so I might get a .410 this time around.

The first shotgun I ever shot was an old single bbl H&R small frame 28ga. It weighed about 4lbs. It was I believe made in 24ga & .410 as well as the 28ga. I would not mind having one of these, or something similar, just to carry walking during the off season. I would never pay a premium for both gun & shells in order to have an inferior gun to take hunting hunting.

I have a H&R .410 in quite tatty condition. Paid £20 for it.

BTW - I've gone from five stars to three stars to two stars am i saying the wrong things?!

C'mon guys, the non-fourtener's or even non-twentyeighter's, non-twentygauger's and even the non-sixteener's, all sing the same story: 'why carry a gun that's not as efficient a killer as the one I chose?'

If taken to the extreme, that would mean some guys could handle shooting a 6 1/2 lb. 12g shooting 1 1/8 oz of 8's at quail easily, some, a larger load than that.

The answer to the 'why a smallbore?' question is: "Because I can." The whole idea for most hunters, is recreational enjoyment. If shooting a particular brand, vintage, type of action, and yes, even size of cartridge, provides more enjoyment, why would that be an inferior gun? If killing efficiency is the only criteria, a A-5 or 391 gas jackhammer would be the obvious choice over inferior sxs guns, especially vintage sxs guns. Seems like inferior/superior is only for the individual to decide for himself.

I dream about that day for myself. I am getting close though.

I have one .410 and it's a Marlin single shot bolt. Works great for any animal that shouldn't be around the farm. I had an 870 28 ga, but it didn't fit me at all. I assume the .410 version won't either. Haven't seen any around town, but haven't looked either. I had a few Stevens 311's in .410, but with the prices going way up even on those clunkers I sold them off.

Gee Ted, I can probably think of hundreds of guns I want. Not that I would have any real use for them. For me, one can not have too much art in one's life.
On the other hand, being one of those hording types, I currently have at the very least dozens of guns that should, in all good conscience, have a new home.
I have so many oil paintings I fill a couple of homes an office and some closets. But, I still look at what is at auction.
Art in any form, and to me wonderful doubles are a high form, always gets my attention. I always want more.
Can't you really even fantasize about another beauty? Another interesting piece of history? Both together?
You better take up golf.
Best Regards, Jake

Canecutters are big oversize swamp bunnies. Indigenous to Southern Swamps.

My buddies annoy me with there .410's...little pipsqueek report throwing there tiny little payloads of shot...shooting the same score as I do with my 12......sheeesh. I've had a few. A Dakin SXS that fell out of the safe and broke in two....I couldn't shoot it anyway. One of those Marlin lever actions that really humiliated me and a 28" Pigeon Grade Superposed Skeet gun....Holy Crap! I couldn't shoot it either.I wish I had it back...I could sell it for about 3 times what I let it go for.Those .410 guys pay lots of $$$ for them little guns.

Regards,
Ken

Personally I do not consider ""a A-5 or 391 gas jackhammer would be the obvious choice over inferior sxs guns"" a SxS to be an inferior gun. True it will not hold as many shells, if one needs that many for a single head of game or a single covey rise for that matter. Probably this held true in days gone by when flights of ducks dropped into clearings by the hundreds & one could let a raft of them settle on the water & then start working on the ones still in the air & the others as they rose. This situation doesn't exist anymore. To me "Personally" the superior handling qualities of a SxS for the type of shooting I mainly do allows me to take the same amount of game with fewer shots. There is, I think, little question a .410 of the same grade & model, unless strictly speaking of "New Guns", will bring 2-3 times that of one in even a 20ga. Also, & not because I chose them, there is no doubt a 20ga or bigger is ballisticlly superior to a .410. I have no problem with anyone who enjoys it, using one, I just have no desire to do so. I also note virtually all the hunters I have ever been around who shot a .410 always opted for the 3" shell & Max loads. I can have just as much fun, at half the price on shells, with a minimum load in a 16 or 20 & for the same gun money shoot a much higher grade gun. Some of us, even on a high class board like this one, do stil have to watch how we spend our money.

Chuck ...... you are over the limit! The 410 police will be around to confiscate one of the Nitro's.

Bouvier

Jakearoo,
I took up shooting to get away from people who golf! But, my gunsafe is, at the moment, quite full. A double each of gauges 12, 16, and 20 is at home in there, as are three different pump 12s, two 20s, and a 16, in addition to two handguns (one other is in my jacket pocket) as well as several .22 rifles. There are several gun projects laying about I haven't counted, either.
Hell, I've got choke tubes that aren't out of the package yet.

I can't afford serious art (I have a three month old son and a Colombian born wife who stays at home to care for him) but, much as I enjoy looking at art, I don't need to own it. I need to own an IRA and a pension, and an education fund of some sort. The guns are art, I suppose, but, I demand it be functional-I own no safe queens. I have more than I could ever be truly proficient with. Remember the saying "Beware the man with one gun"? I've strayed quite far from that. I don't believe it has improved my shooting. Or, actually, anybodies shooting.

A 410 on top of that would be simple folly, and plenty exists in other forms about the homestead, ie, my motorcycles, old musclecar, boat and whathave you.

You can have my 410. Did I mention I bought 4 boxes of Federal 20 gauge ammunition for $15.97 at Walmart, and the cheapest 410 was $8.97 a box?
Folly. Simple folly.
Best,
Ted

According to a friend of mine, a Nitro Special in .410 with a short stock brought $2900 at a rather infamous gun auction last week.

Ted,

Stay the course. It sounds like you've got everything in the proper perspective.Except maybe the golf thing!!!

Ken

I have no interest in golf, too easy. Only takes 18 to make a perfect game. Takes 25 for a perfect round of skeet or trap! 50% tougher.

Thanks Eightbore. The stocking was done by Mr. Mixell, the engraving by Mr. Bee.

Ted, I’m not quite sure how to take your comment. I’ll assume that you are implying, rather sarcastically, that the birds in the pics are preserve birds – if so, you are correct. The first pic shows part of the bag from a last-day of the season clean-up scratch hunt at the club where the dogs and guide; the others just normal scratching hunting.

I do NOT use the .410 for wild birds. At one time I used the .410 for local doves, but these days they fly so high that has become a 12 gauge game. I use a 12 for most of my western wild bird hunting (phez, Huns prairie grouse, etc); I use a 20 for most of my eastern wild bird hunting (phez, ruffed grouse, etc); I use a 28 for most pen-raised birds (phez, chukar, Huns and quail). Now and then I will take the old M42 out to shoot some pen-raised. It works just fine out to 20-25 yards with 3” loads throwing #7½. Shots are generally easy over the pointy dawgs. If I did any wild quail hunting, I might change my mind about using it on wild birds.

Greg,
You'd really enjoy that 42 on some wild Valley Quail out west. I know plenty of people that use a 410 on wild quail out here. Is it tougher than a skeet choked 12g with 1 1/8 oz of #8s? Of course. That's the point, of course.

Miller,
My point was that since hunting as we know it, is done for enjoyment only and as such, each person seeking that enjoyment is best qualified to judge whether or not they are getting inferior or superior enjoyment. Some get their enjoyment out of watching their dogs work, some from collecting large quantities of game, some from shooting particular guns. All the same thing: the pursuit of enjoyment.

"All the same thing: the pursuit of enjoyment."
Chuck; My point exactly. I simply answered that no I wasn't looking for a .410 & told "MY" reasons why. I had no intent to keep anyone else from enjoying their's if that's what they like. I have greatly enjoyed my hunting for 50+ years & it never involved a .410.
If you were to see me it would be obvious I enjoy "Eating" but I don't eat "Liver". Given the choice of some pan fried "Hand Slung" chiterlings & the a dish of liver (any liver, chicken, pig, cow, venison, all them that folks have told me, you got to try this kind, you'll love it) prepared by the world's finest chef I'd take the "Chittlins". I don't care for a .410. As far as I know I had the same right to state my opinion in answering this question as those who love the pip-squeaks do. "If" someone did't answer in the negative, the wrong conclusion would be drawn to the question.

Same here...about stating opinions, that is. While I've disagreed with you on some things, I've never denied your right to state your opinion as you have implied on more than one occasion I've stated a differing opinion. I welcome your opinion and input...don't always agree, but you're opinion is always worth the read.

To say we hunt for enjoyment wouldn't that be saying we enjoy the kill ?....an assassin enjoys the kill never a true hunter.

It's the chase....which I think a big part of is lost in the game farm shuffle.
I've never been to one. I might reach a point in life when I need a fast forward diversion...just not yet.

Chuck;
I appreciate your comments. I have never asked that all, or even any, agree with all I say. On some things I am highly opinionated, guess I don't really need to say that, and often enjoy giving the "Other Side" of an issue. When I see things though like an NS .410 bringing $2900 & it weighs about 6lb, I simply can't help but wonder "Why"?? I suppose many of my thoughtrs are derived from being raised a rural country boy & having always been a "Blue Collar" worker & even though getting into skilled trades, not flooded with funds & just can't help but think how much nicer 20ga could be bought for that amount & loaded with 3/4oz loads would give all the benefits +(likly much more uniform patterns) than stuffing those out of proportion 3" Roman Candles up that little hole.
But again to each his own.

Joe;

If you don't hunt for enjoyment, why do you hunt? It's all about the chase, never the kill? I take it you hunt with a camera then? Catch and release.....that's very noble.

Mr. Hartman,
Well, I wasn't going for somewhat sarcastic-in fact, I was being downright smartassed. But, you have 'sorta made my point, 'twixt synthetic hunting and the other variety, and the guns used, which, is where the biggest defenders of the little guns make the case for the use of same.
Lets be honest-ALL pheasant hunting is a bit synthetic here in the new world, right? So, I won't weigh further on the right and wrong way to go about it. Some folks, like, say, me, or Larry Brown, have access to pheasant hunting where the birds are truly "living off the fat of the land". Those birds never look like the birds in your photo. I called you on that. I was right, too. Further, use of a 410, and, usually, a 28, on birds that have to earn their living everyday, is not use of the best sporting judgement. I would like to think a shooter like Lord Rippon (who, I am not) probably could do that with a 410-and would choose not to. Simply out of respect for the animal. I, aspire to that line of thinking. I'm trying to get better at it, and, my shooting.
I've shot a few game farm birds in my day-I say shot, because it isn't really hunting, as I define it, anyway. Again, that is just my opinion. It is controlled, and the birds are short on aquired field wisdom. I noticed you said you guide on the game farm. I've done some guiding for wild birds in my past, and I didn't realize people would hire a guide at a game farm-I learn something new everyday, it seems. I suppose a 410 might be used here, since, from what I've seen, game farm birds don't cling all that tenaciously to life. But, like I said, I've been trying to do right by the game animal with as quick and humane a kill as I can, and it would cost more, and be less efficient FOR ME, at this point in the ball game, to consider a 410. Something about getting almost 2 rounds of 20 or 12 gauge ammunition, for the price of 1 round of 410 just chaps my hindquarters, too. Don't even get me started on the price of the guns. My Dad says that's the Barvarian cheapskate ancester in us, which others may/may not be afflicted with. Who knows? I've a hunch about Miller, anyway.
Anyway, back to my point, it seems that plenty of guys endorse the 410. But, when you call them on it, and press them for a few details, the endorsement usually comes with the game farm stipulation, or the dog fart stipulation, which, is you can't shoot the bird at a range farther than one can detect his dog's farts. Which, isn't really an endorsement of a hunting gun at all, if you ponder it. And, I thought the photos you posted, and the later explaination 'kinda made that point better than had been done so far in this thread. And, I was a bit of a smartass about it. Sorry. Truly.
Use the 410 in good health. Did I mention it's really cute? The dogs, too.
Best,
Ted

The MYTH is that .410 is boy's, or girly gun. Just flip through the pages of Anglo publication entitled: 'Because it's there! Climbing the north face of the .410.

Judging by the number of responses to this post, the short answer would seem to be yes, most of us are looking for a .410. I have shot my friend's 870 .410 at dog trials on pen raised quail with great effect out to 25 yards. Past that range though, you're asking for trouble. I would love to have a nice little sxs though. A local shop has the cz bobwhite in .410 for $699, and it's a lovely little gun, and balances well with great dimensions. Too bad the internals are so suspect.

Not everbody wants one. My hobby is to find new homes for orphans digesting 300grains or more of 'full patch' at = or > 2100fps.
PS. With proper choke combo and 18gm load the .410 bore is a fun 20+/-2yrd gun.

I probably have as many .410s as some people have.... (thought you had me there, huh?). No, I've not shot any dog trials with one, don't quite see the reason for that, but I've shot a few preserve birds with the .410. I see some sarcasm and cynicism in Ted's post but he is right on the mark when he suggests that some "wild bird" hunting and shooting is not exactly the harvesting of birds that live off the land and wear black or brown belts. His backhanded comments about the cost of the ammunition just lets us know that he is not an experienced reloader, nothing more. The cost of the ammunition has nothing to do with clean killing of our game. The bottom line is that bad shots (most of us who hunt birds) should not be shooting the .410, even at preserve pheasants, and good shots should be careful of the range at which they choose to engage their targets.

Those .410s can be tricky. One time I got all excited thinking I found .450/400 3&1/4" Winchester double. Bad news! It turned out to be very heavy barreled .410 smooth-bore.

Yeah, no one likes those trashy old smallbore Model 21s. You can tell by the prices.

Looks like you didn't read the quote from Chuck that you posted. He listed several of the different ways hunters can find enjoyment.
A day hunting is a day of enjoyment for me, whether I "assassinate" any game or not.

Your post reads like you think hunting renewable game is the same as murdering a human being. Surely hope I took it wrong.

I do, however, enjoy "assassinating" prairie rats by the hundreds, on my yearly trip to Wyoming. I also enjoy being out in that beautiful country, making good shots and just seeing the varmints fly up in the air.

Again it seems that most would like to own/shoot a .410. Like I stated earlier, it's not for everyone,and it does have it's limitations. As far as long range, what is long range? A .410 will shoot as far as any guage, just don't have the same amount of pellets. How many have actually skinned a bird to see how many pellets were in a bird. I used to do some taxidermy, and mounted quite a few pheasants (wild ones then) and you would be amazed as to how few pellets are really in them. I've seen pheasants fly for close to a 100 yards and fall stone dead (heart shot) and have seen them fly upwards (head shot), mostly 2-3 pellets in the vitals.
As far as Ted badmouthing Greg, he should have looked at the state he is from (Pa) that would have told you they were stocked birds. (If you see a wild pheasant now, report it, it's endangered here). Granted stocked birds are just that, doesn't mean they are easy though, still takes a well placed shot.
With the .410 you will find yourself getting on the birds faster and not letting them get out too far, 15-20 yards.
Also don't believe what you see on TV as all those pheasants flying around are wild. Look and see how many more hens than cock birds are getting up, they are preserve type shoots also, they have to supplement, yes stock birds to make up for the wild birds harvested. And most of those shows you could use a .410. Hunting wild pheasants there is no talking, laughing, calling your dog, if you do you won't see anything. You have to push those birds out of cover and make them fly. Know for a fact, hunted South Dakota's truly wild pheasants, no fat on them, no crowing when they take off, maybe weigh close to 2 lbs.
So because there are no wild birds here anymore (live in the old pheasant mecca of Pa), in order to hunt you have to shoot preserve birds or release them yourself on a Regulated Shooting Ground. Same thing with the trout

I used my Uggie 410 for the first time on the 1st day of our pen raised quail shoot last weekend in Georgia. I am a very mediocre shoot and will say that most of the birds I hit did not go down hard. We did find most if not all of them but I think you need to be a better shot than I am. I intend to get better before I use it again but I did enjoy shooting and carrying it. I used my 28ga the 2nd day and did WAY better, even though it kept doubling on me (hey, maybe that's why I did better, let's see, 1 1/2 oz of #9 with 4 dram equiv when it doubles).

I agree that it is shooting, not hunting when you are after pen raised birds and someone else is taking you to the birds and running the dogs. It can be enjoyable to shoot with a friend, watch the dogs work and sit around the campfire with your friends though. Don't be too judgemental.

Jim to each his own...we were talking about actual hunting not prairie dog shooting.

About the 15th time I read 'Meditations on Hunting' by Gasset my brain has been scrambled.
What I was saying was hunting to me is more about the chase than the actual kill and I agree with Gasset a hunter should get no enjoyment from the kill it's just the end result of the hunt...and 'no' I don't hunt with a camera.
Call it enjoyment if you like.

Ted:

“Some folks, like, say, me, or Larry Brown, have access to pheasant hunting where the birds are truly "living off the fat of the land". Those birds never look like the birds in your photo.” I am envious of your access to wild phez. They are gone from here and, though we have ruffed grouse, etc, I must travel to hunt wild phez. With respect, I don’t agree with your statement at all. I have killed countless wild phez in 48 straight years (except 3 years spent overseas as a prisoner of the US Army in the late 1960’s) of holding a hunting license, both here in the glory days and all over the country. In my experience, wild phez tend to have more spectacular plumage than pen-raised birds. Both are pretty, but I’ll take a wild bird every time for appearance and other factors. Here’s a late season limit on Iowa birds – they look pretty good to me.



Since you can tell the difference, I’ll let you tell me whether this brace is pen-raised or wild:



How about these?



These?



“I was being downright smartassed … I called you on that. I was right, too. “ An interesting mindset. Why did I need and deserve to be “called out” by a self-appointed BB cop in a “smartassed” manner no less?

“Further, use of a 410, and, usually, a 28, on birds that have to earn their living everyday, is not use of the best sporting judgement (sic).” Well, I agree in part. For the typical casual hunter, you are clearly right. For someone who is good enough to be reasonably sure of centering the bird in the pattern and who is experienced and restrained enough not to take any marginal shots, there is no doubt that a .410 can be used humanely on wild birds within its limitations. I like to think I’m a decent shot (average 80-90% on SC and shoot many, many birds in a year) and most shots over my pointing dogs are very easy to begin with, but I work too hard to get a point on wild birds, like a jittery Greater Prairie Chicken for example, to simply watch them fly off if they flush beyond 20 yards or so. Therefore, I like a bigger gun – generally use a 20 here in the east and a 12 out west. FWIW, to my mind a 28 is THE perfect tool for pen raised birds - it provides clean kills out to 30 yards or so even on big birds - but it is a bit light for the wild bird hunting I do.

“I've shot a few game farm birds in my day-I say shot, because it isn't really hunting, as I define it, anyway” Obviously, you are fully entitled to your opinion. Game farms can provide everything from a rather pathetic poultry-shooting experience to an experience that gets pretty close to wild bird hunting, so usually folks who will tell you of good or terrible experiences are telling the truth as they witnessed it. It all depends on how the club is run. Also, there is a huge difference between hunting planted birds and scratch hunting – where you are chasing birds that have survived any number of hunters, dogs, predators, etc. Before you finalize your opinion on this subject, Ted, you might want to broaden your experience a bit.

Regardless of all that, hunting clubs allow me to feed my addiction. I hunt wild birds here, in the west, etc, etc, but the wild bird seasons aren’t enough for me. By virtue of belonging to a hunting club, I can hunt two or more times a week for a full seven months out of the year. It may not be “real hunting” to a purist such as yourself, but for a fanatic such as myself, it sure is better than sitting at home or cleaning the basement.

“I noticed you said you guide on the game farm. I've done some guiding for wild birds in my past, and I didn't realize people would hire a guide at a game farm-I learn something new everyday, it seems.” Yep, they do. You are pretty much lost without a good dog – not everyone has dogs. We get all sorts of folks – some rookies who have never picked up a gun before, like this fine young man who killed his very first birds over my dogs:





Some folks like this gentleman, whose older dog had died and his puppy wasn’t ready yet:



And lots of regular guys just out for a good day:



Guiding in addition to my regular hunting (wild and pen-raised) allows my dogs to kill at least many hundreds of birds in a year, plus it helps keep the Old Man in top physical condition and it keeps him smiling – isn’t that what this is all about?

“from what I've seen, game farm birds don't cling all that tenaciously to life.” I’ve often heard that and do not agree at all. However, conditions are usually more controlled so that you don’t need or want to take longer shots, plus few wounded birds escape - retrieving is usually much easier than in wild bird cover like this:



“But, like I said, I've been trying to do right by the game animal with as quick and humane a kill as I can” There we agree. The fact is a .410 in the hands of a competent shooter and used only within its range is a humane killer.

“… it would cost more, and be less efficient FOR ME, at this point in the ball game, to consider a 410. Something about getting almost 2 rounds of 20 or 12 gauge ammunition, for the price of 1 round of 410 just chaps my hindquarters, too.” Well, I don’t get too concerned about the cost of ammunition for hunting. Especially when you think about the costs of travel, maintaining good dogs, nice guns, a motorhome, etc, etc, the cost of ammo is an insignificant factor. I burn many thousands of rounds (including .410) at targets and cost becomes a real factor there. That said, it is clear you don’t reload. If you did you would know that the .410 is the cheapest gauge to load – it uses only small amounts of powder and shot. It is much cheaper to shoot a .410 than a 12 or a 20.

“Don't even get me started on the price of the guns. My Dad says that's the Barvarian (sic) cheapskate ancester (sic) in us, which others may/may not be afflicted with.” Each to their own. I hear you about ethnic background. I was raised by my poor rural PA Dutch grandparents who spoke only some English – talk about frugal!! Nonetheless, I like nice guns and am able and willing to pay for them because they make my time in the field even more enjoyable. Others don’t. Each approach is just fine because it’s all about how you have fun, as some other have noted.

“Use the 410 in good health. Did I mention it's really cute? The dogs, too.” Thanks! I do mean that, truly.

Greg

Well, the post I responded to didn't make much sense and this one quoted above doesn't either. You seem to have a problem with the word enjoyment. Hunting to you "is more about the chase than the actual kill". Doesn't that mean the chase gives you enjoyment? Why on earth do you equate hunting with assassinating PEOPLE??
To take it to extremes as silly as your posts on this, how do you have any idea what is most enjoyable to an assassin? Maybe the assassin enjoys the chase as much or more than the actual kill? Maybe he/she doesn't even enjoy the kill itself, just as many hunters also do not.
As far as I'm concerned, if we could have shoot and release in hunting, as we do catch and release, in fishing, I'd be happy to do it that way
This thread WAS about .410s, not some PC nonsense about what hunting means to you, me or any of us.

Well, open a little door and who knows what will pop out. Thanks for the 410 education. I had a little bolt action when I was a kid that killed a lot of rabbits ..... and haven't eaten many since. (A house rule that went for most things shot ..... never crows!). After all that was said I'm still up for a 410 for the reasons I have already stated ..... I want to work harder to be a better shot ...... and I want to have a shotgun to lend to new shooters that doesn't leave them bruised. I'm not a reloader so loading soft 12's or 20's is not an options.

BTW ..... if anyone was convinced by this thread that it was time to dump their "girlie" gun ..... drop me a line. I'm confidant enough about my manhood to be seen with it.

Bouvier

brother Jim must be having a bad Birthday.

I'm sorry I forgot to wish yOu happy Birthday Jim....may you shoot millions more prarie dogs and call it hunting.

You can't help but smile ...

Thank you for the very sincere birthday wish, Joe. Your reading skills really need some work, however. I said I enjoy assassinating prairie rats, nowhere did I call it hunting.

Jim I started to suggest that you purchase the book and read it...but with your level of comprehension skills I don't think I'd waste the money if I were you.

To get off the personal attacks & back to the .410; re-reloading. While true the savings for reloading vs factory are probably higher in loading a .410 than any other size, with possible exception the 28ga. However if reloading then a 20ga shooter can load 3/4oz loads. Loading a case of 500 shells with 3/4oz one will have approx 1½ lb of shot left from a 25lb bag. Loading the 11/16 oz for the 3" .410 you would have approx 3.5lbs left or 2lb difference. Even at todys lead prices this is not much. As to the .410 taking lighter powder charges I looked at two popular powders for the .410 (Hodgdon's & Alliants) & both used 14½-15 grains. Powders from the same two manf's for loading a 3/4oz 20 ga came in @ 12-12½ grains, plus they were powders which had wide useage in other gauges as well. The powders suitable for the .410 are usable only for magnum type pistol loads or small capacity rifle loads, such as the .22 Hornet. The 20ga loads much easier, cases "Generally" are known to give longer life, components are much more readily available, unless you want the ½oz skeet load. The ½ oz load is truly the only one in the .410 which will save you money loading & even it won't if shooting factory.
Again, let me itterate, I have absolutely no quarrell with anyone who desires to shoot one of them, just feel they need to understand they "Are" paying more for less. Personally, I prefer to pay less for more.

Greg, I hate to get off my favorite subject, the .410, but can you tell us about the single trigger hammer gun?

Wow. Sarcasm AND personal affronts. For a minute there I thought this was the SSM board.

You are right. I came here to get away from that kind of stuff on the old Shotgun Sports board. Shame on me.

Greg,
You needed to be called out because you posted in your most manly man keyboarding that the 410 was just the thing for "them big birds". A couple posts later, you told us they were game farm birds. The smartass manner was a no charge, free bonus.

It was intended to be tongue in cheek. Sorry if it went astray.

My experience with game farms is limited to about a dozen different operations in four states. I found it invariably disappointing. I know that others here have voiced the same idea on occasion, so it isn't just me. Game farm operations reduce pheasants to livestock, pretty consistantly. The thing about livestock is, it knows where the feed is. If that wasn't true, we would have "scratch" turkeys on turkey farms, "scratch" chickens on poultry farms, "scratch" milk cows on dairy farms, and "scratch" pigs on pig farms. Lets face it, a "scratch" pheasant on a pheasant farm is one that hasn't gotten hungry enough to fly back to the food. More than one owner has told me the birds with an empty craw will be patiently waiting near the pen the next day, usually.
Further, the owners I've met on game farm operations were pretty good at keeping predator populations well under control. I saw some of the same sets from my youth, that I used to take fox and coons, on more than one game farm. Come on, Greg, the idea that a "scratch" bird is going to encounter predators on a game farm is pushing the envelope just a bit. I think you will see more fox and coyotes in NY city's central park than around most game farms. I'm going to further guess that a week or three of avoiding folks and pooches doesn't a wild rooster make. That, is based on my "limited experience" on the subject. I've never heard anyone compare hunting scratch birds to hunting wild birds, however. Not before this post, anyway.

As to the "good enough" shot who will use that 410 on wild pheasants, only using the gun within it's limitations, I'm further guessing he is a vegetarian, anyway. Where the heck do you get sub 25 yard flushes on wild pheasants after opening day? Like you said, it is hard enough to get a point later in the season on wild birds-wouldn't this "good enough" shot show up, as you and I do, with more firepower, if he was truly wise about the game? Talking about consistantly centering a wild pheasant with a 410s pattern is pretty much just talk. The people in my world who I believe could do that, just wouldn't. I think that shows class.

Mr. Hartman, with all due respect, you keep making my point for me. My point was that use of the 410 as a hunting implement invariably comes with mention of game farm baggage. Right after I posted that notion, you put photos of dead pheasants and a neat little model 42, and, came clean a few posts later with the fact they were game farm birds. You freely admit, as do I, that you have a bigger gauge gun in hand when you pursue wild birds.

I commend that thinking. And I'm not trying to badmouth or bash anybody.
Best,
Ted

PS I want to take the "Wild/Not Wild bird challenge!!! The two birds with the hammer gun-wild. The four birds with the classy Brittany-not wild. The last bird with the sidelock leaning on the tree and the cute liver spotted pooch-wild.

How did I do?

I'll forgive you this time...since it was your birthday. You really should read "Meditations on Hunting".

Ps...I rated you a five stars Jim.

I have a 410 and I use it on doves. I have 28 gauges and 410s but they are toys. The 28 gauge can do more than Ted thinks but if Ted were inviting me on a hunt I would carry a 16. I don't even like the 20 gauge on truly wild Pheasants. A wild bird has way too much will to live for a 410.

I'm sure adopting BLNE from Bhm with generous LOP is in my future. They're delicious!

the owners I've met on game farm operations were pretty good at keeping predator populations well under control. I saw some of the same sets from my youth, that I used to take fox and coons, on more than one game farm. Come on, Greg, the idea that a "scratch" bird is going to encounter predators on a game farm is pushing the envelope just a bit. I think you will see more fox and coyotes in NY city's central park than around most game farms.

Ted, I have to strongly disagree with you. Where there is food there are predators, not only 4 footed but feathered. Sure you can trap some foxes, then they get to be smart, coyotes harder to catch, they make a fox look stupid. Now take the flying killers, Goshawks, maybe even Redtails and the biggest killer, the Great horned Owl, just eats the head. They startle the birds in the pens, when they fly and their heads get into the mesh the owls tear it off.
Like I stated earlier I live now in what was the pheasant area of Pa, about 30 minutes I guess from Greg (going by his location), and in it's heyday there were considerable amounts of pheasants around. The state would let them go on open land not posted at 5-6 weeks old. By the time hunting season came, they were truly like wild pheasants. You could hunt all day and put up birds, mostly hens, and then when they came to back to roost in the alfalfa fields you would get more shooting. I considered myself a good shot but never used a .410 or a 28 ga., never used a 12 ga either. A 20 ga with 7/8 oz. #6, because I felt comfortable with it.
So maybe Greg was a little deceiteful, he did admit it.

Well, Ted, maybe we’ve all been a bit smartassed here.

Maybe things are different where you live but around here preserves are an amazing predator smorgasbord – especially for avian predators. It’s a rare day you don’t see at least a half-dozen redtails, etc. Predator control may be practiced under the radar at some places, but no one at the preserve where I guide will touch that with a 10 foot pole. It’s not worth it and there are always eyes watching. A wealthy woman who was into dog training maintained her own private preserve not too far from here. She instructed her employees to kill hawks, etc. A couple of years ago she was busted and the result wasn’t pretty. You may recall that case – it made national news. In the days when this area was Pheasant Central, the PAGC actually paid for dead hawks and would sponsor big shoots. The newspaper in those days carried articles with pictures showing dump trucks full of dead crows and hawks - imagine that happening in 2007!!!. These days, it will, at the very least cost you a bundle and you will lose your hunting privileges for a very long time. I’ll let the predators at the hunting club pull the heads off all the pen-raised phez they want rather than face that risk.

We are overrun with predators generally here in PA – there are scads of them on my property. Every time, I’ve tried to establish a bird population on my land, within two weeks there is nothing left but little piles of feathers. I’ve given up.

Interestingly, there are also plenty of predators where we hunt wild birds out west – this one took a sharptail right in front of my dogs this Fall in Nebraska:



Despite the predators, areas with vast amounts of good habitat seem to support good wild bird populations.

Be all of that as it may, on to the “wild/not wild” game. I kinda cheated. The first pic with the hammergun shows a limit of PAGC stockies. They are not “wild” but they are a far cry from the game farm birds. In fact it is much more challenging these days to take a limit of the PAGC birds than it was to take a limit back in the days when we had real wild phez here. So, I guess the answer to the first pic is not quite wild.

For Eightbore’s info, that gun is a 20 bore Bertuzzi, with Manrico Torcoli (he is known for his elaborate fantasy nudes, etc, which do not appeal to me, but I think he’s the best bulino engraver working today) engraving of my beloved master, Maggie, holding a ruffed grouse with mountain laurel. Maggie is the orange and white Brittany in some of the other pics – now 8 ½ years old. Here’s a pic of the bulino panel. A lesser (and less expensive) light did the scroll:



The second pic of Maggie with four phez show 100% wild Iowa birds – two hunters – each one bird short of a limit. This is another shot earlier that same day right after two of the birds were taken as a double in heavy switchgrass. Maggie and I hunkered down in a switchgrass “nest” to get out of the wind and cold for a couple of minutes.



The final pic was taken in my “front yard” of my puppy, Chase, with limit of PAGC birds that the little bugger produced for the gun. So, again the answer is not quite wild.

Fun thread!

I never tire of your gun or dog. Noble indeed.

(Jimmy W opens the door and starts to say "HI GUYS !!!" then sees all the furniture turned over and everyone mending their wounds from one he** of a rukus so he just quietly closes the door and tiptoes back down the sidewalk, with his hands in his pockets, eyes rolled back in his head and non-chalantly whistling "In a little red barn- down on the farm in INNNN-DI-AAAA-NAAA. (So much for him giving his opiny on a .410 gauge!) Besides he's retired and quit giving a S*** what people thought a long time ago.)

I think the picture of the hammer gun set everyone off...if only it was a 12 gauge.

Greg, there is a reason birds of pray, corvids, foxes, stray dogs, and cats get shot by hunters in Europe.
In US they will hang you for a cat!

Yup, the statement about game farm operators keeping predators under control was way off base. Game farms on the Eastern Shore of MD are overrun with eagles, but it is more the shooter's problem than the operator's. Most operations are involved with planted birds and leftovers are not of much importance to the operator. I kind of look forward to seeing an eagle take on a flighted cockbird. It isn't something that many of us get to see very often. It takes a talented predator to take a pheasant away from a hunter with the hunter within shotgun range. Somehow these Maryland whiteheads have figured it out. Our game farm operators would ban a shooter for life if he killed an eagle on a "hunt".