So, want to have my 20 Gauge M12 reblued, based on my research I have 3 options: Simmons, Boses or Wrights.

Any info, opinion, experiences on which to use and why will be appreciated.

Thanks in advance

A gunsmith buddy of mine sent his very tired 20ga Mod 12 to Simmons for the full re-do, including fitting a vent rib, fresh wood and complete reblue. He is very happy with the work. I saw it briefly and it looked good to me, way better than the 1912 I had done locally by a guy who came highly recommended.

Another option might be Midwest Gun Works.

Simmons does very good work but I recommend that you not go with the high polish. In my opinion the high polish on a vintage Winchester makes it look as if the previous owner was a pimp or a gangsta.

The Simmons polish on my friend's gun looked appropriate for the gun, compared to another original M12 20ga that I own. I also have another that was reblued before I got it, and it does look pimpish. MGW offers a "factory correct" refinish for Superposeds, and I think they offer the same service for M12s (not absolutely sure, though). The biggest problem with the polishing seems to be keeping surfaces flat and edges crisp, and not getting carried away on the matting along the top of the frame.

Thanks for the responses, it's a field grade gun that I'll be carrying for Grouse and Woodcock, I just want a reblue to keep it protected and definitely want it to look original and not "pimpish." I'll be calling Simmons and Midwest tomorrow.

I polished my first year model 12 and sent the gun to Glen Rock blue. My polish was not especially high (maybe to 320 grit) and there were pits left in the receiver instead of being worked out. They hot blued the gun, and it is very presentable. I was simply interested in my hands not getting rusty when I used it-it had been a barn gun since the late 1940s when I got it.
They did a great job, and the cost was reasonable.

Best,
Ted

There's something particularly pleasurable from what you've done, Ted. Sometimes a better feeling than acquiring another gun.

I'm not a big re-blue guy, but, I got the gun for nothing, and put it back into service. It works correctly, and I'd prefer one using gun to a dozen new in the box treasures hanging around anyway.

Best,
Ted

It's been over 30 years, but I sent an early M12 20 to Simmons for a complete re-do, including VR, and it came back fresh as a daisy. Good to hear that they continue to do good work.

Might throw Nu-Way gun works into the mix. I had mine done out there (I think its in Kansas or Mo.) and was impressed with the work...Geo

What does a Simmons re-do cost these days, ballpark?

Simmons used to post the prices on their website, don't know if they still do.

http://www.simmonsguns.com/site/services/barrel-work-blueing/

They do. $250 for reblue of action and barrel (plus any other charges that arise). For $1,400 (their internet special today!) they will completely "tart" the gun up by adding a vent rib (or a solid one), jewell the bolt, & replace the wood with "fancy" walnut w/20 lpi checkering. Call me old-fashioned, but I like the tiny 13 and then 14-ring corncobs on the early guns. I could see having an old action cleaned up and reblued, but I'd still be using the original stock and pump fore-end. The beauty of the early guns to me is their lighter weight, so the addition of ribs and then big-skirted pump handles and pistol grips doesn't meet my criteria.

I assume you meant Nu-Line Guns, George. Good outfit for Winchester re-do's. http://www.nulineguns.com/
JR

I think that "special" was about $900 a couple of years ago. Must be the strong economy.

Either that or it's a comment on the utility of a nice light Model 12 in 20-gauge. A friend of mine just picked up a circa-1914 25-inch 20-gauge that had been completely redone (with a Simmons vent rib added). Makes a nice back-up gun to his pretty little Parker double, and the cost was insignificant. The fancy wood and rib added a little weight (it's now about 6 1/2-lbs), but it's pretty sweet. He left it unplugged for the rare occation where that is useful.

Lloyd,
What does a 20ga M12 weigh? I've always had an interest in one, but I'm not sure about the weight.

Depends a lot on how it's configured and what period it came from. Mine aren't nearby right now, but my 1913 solid rib 25" Mod 1912 20 ga weighs a lot less than my late vent rib 30" M12 20 ga. You need one.

Just weighed two of them yesterday. Both guns are plain field-grade nickel-steel 20s (pre-1930) and both have ~14-inch lengths of pull. The circa 1923 28-inch barreled gun weighed 6lbs4. The circa 1914 25-inch gun weighed 6lbs even (note: this gun has an aftermarket stock that is very narrow and may not be walnut). I just received a replacement stock for the 25-inch gun from the folks at Gunstocks, Inc. in Bedford, Iowa. Cost me a whole $65! I'll let you know how that works out.

I don't want to offend anyone involved here, but based on what I've read, I'd like to add a lttle info. Your older Model 12's had a fairly high polish to the receiver, less on the rest. The barrels were typically rust blued,mag tubes the same. The receivers were heat blued, with a charge used that to my knowledge was proprietary. The finish on the receiver can be pretty closely copied by nitre bluing. If you're getting a gun refinished, and they're completely hot tanking, it may look good, but it's not even coming close to original.This information was gotten through two close friends who are often involved in the appraisal of large estate collections. Both have been in the gun business for years and are very good at spotting refinishes, frauds, etc.
Once again, not trying to offend. Just sharing what I deem to be accurate info on the subject.Since having this discussion with them, I've looked very closely at older Model 12's, and what they've told me seems to hold true.
Luck,
Jim

If you are at the point of re-bluing an early model 12, I have some news for you-it isn't close to being original, anyway. There are some of us who simply want the gun to have fresh blue on it to keep our hands from getting rusty handling the gun. My very last concern was that it look "original" after the job was done. My second to last concern is whatever Winchester did to them back in the day, because a simple hot blue will hold up longer in actual use, which, is what I hope to do with my gun. I'm not out to fool anybody, and anyone who has ever handled my refinished gun was told (or, should have known) it was refinished. The wood was replaced at the same time, with an original looking pump handle, and an Italian reproduction butt stock that just happened to fit me better than the original. Lefty safety installed. It's all good, for actual use in the field.
There is a place for a perfect, original, first year model 12, but I'm afraid it isn't in my gunsafe.

Best,
Ted

I think the Riffle book has a discussion of the various steels and finishing methods used on the originals. Been a while since I looked at it, so may be some other book. For a using gun, it really doesn't make that much difference.

I'm with Ted on this one. If a gun is so-far gone that handling it requires a trip to the parts-cleaner tank, it's time to refinish it. Up until that point, I'm rather fond of the silvery patina they get from years of service afield (I know, I'm in the minority here), but I'm a user and not a collector. Some Model 12s may rise to the point where they are objects d'art (either for their scarcity, originality, or the level of finish they've received), but those guns miss me completely. I'm into value and function, English guns are art to me, M12s are honest tools of the trade.

Alright, let me revise my last statement. I now have a very light, short, and handy little Model 12 (circa 1914, 13 5/8 LOP, 6lbs even, 20-bore with the little 25-inch barrel) that I would consider shining up a bit. It's just nice enough to consider as a gift to a newly minted hunter, and the re-blue would prepare it for yet another century of use.

Leave it alone. The gun has character as-is. but won't when its re-blued. Those guns aren't bad about rust anyway if cared for properly.
JR

If it had been cared for properly, this post wouldn't exist.

Best,
Ted

I don't think I agree with JR, but it depends on the specific gun. The 1912 that I had reblued came to me with almost no blue remaining, and short wood in marginal condition. I found a nice set of used Browning Model 12 wood for it and had it polished and hot blued. Would rather have had a factory-correct reblue, but this gun was just not worth that kind of expense. I now have an attractive 25" full choke, solid rib pump gun that works well and fits me a lot better than did the original iteration. The original short wood is still packed away for anyone who wants to reinstall it in the future. I have more into the gun than it's ever likely to be worth, but it's a neat little gun and I like it. I have other Mod 12's that I won't mess with.

I've got plenty of "beater" guns, and several of them are sub-gauge Model 12s now. I use them for travel and "loaners" when my middle-aged and overweight buddies (and family) start to whine about the "hard work of lugging as heavy 12 around". Most of these I picked up from a bargain bin somewhere in my travels, & for very little money. Since they hadn't been well cared for and/or had been cut down to fit smaller shooters, they were viewed as being of little interest or value. Where's the harm in putting a replacement stock on one (refinished in a respectful, original fashion) and re-bluing them to make them look good again? I'd even consider having a solid rib put on to enhance the effect. I could do all of this and still have far-less in them than the cost of an overweight American double.

I have never sent a Winchester off to be refinished, but have seen work done by Nu-line, Simmons, and Wright's. All do nice work. I had a high-polish Simmons 42, and thought it attractive.

Ted's comment about original finish loss with well-worn guns is a good one and, I presume, a comment on the quirky collector mindset. Even so, the market is what it is. I'm ambivalent about the attrition of a gun possessing collector appeal: hate to see another one go, but the unaltered guns become more valuable.

I somewhat disagree with the argument that a fresh blue necessarily augments protection. Up here we see scads of old Winchesters during hunting season that have been worn down - sometimes deliberately - to bare metal all over. A consistent finding is the worn areas are no more inclined to develop frank rust spots than the areas where we find remaining blue. Something to be said for natural oxidation, perhaps.

I think most low-budget hot re-blue jobs look simply awful, often ending up plum and/or as reflective as a Weatherby. Good way to lose a soldered rib, too, though the round bbl should be OK.

Sam

You can wear almost all the blue off of a properly cared for Model 12 in 50, 60, 70 years or so.
JR

My 80 year old Remington model 17 retains perhaps 90% of it's original blue, and was my only repeater for most of a decade. Like the 60 year old Browning A5 my Father bought new, just the sharp edges show loss, and the finish will be servicable for a long time to come. Both have been used very hard, but, not much recently. I was 17 when I got the model 17, and it had been used hard before that. The difference between it, and my first year model 12 was that the 17 was stored indoors and was owned by a few people who understood the concept of keeping a gun clean, and the usefulness of a wipe down with an oily rag.
Bless those folks.
The model 12 was stored in a chicken barn from at least prior to WWII. We know Uncle Rolly owned the farm prior to then, and the gun (and, chickens) came with the place. He farmed until perhaps 1975, and the place was sporadically lived on, or vacant, until 1995, when he died. I got the gun because nobody else wanted it. The toe was broken off the stock, and the long term, damp storage gave the gun an even coating of red rust. Which, "grew back" perhaps a day or two after it was wiped off. Just as sure as the sun rises, nickel steel does rust, given the right circumstances.
I assure you, nobody would have looked at it and pronounced it full of "character". With use, the frosty appearance of the inside of the barrel gave way to an passable bore. But, sometimes, a gun will need service to it's blue.
Not every gun. But, some of them.
I see the same thing with the car guys, out there waxing their "original paint" car that has had the sun burn just about everything except the primer off the thing. Eventually, all finishes need maintenance. For every closet queen gun there are hundreds that have most of their blue and are just fine, and dozens like mine that do work, but, will look a lot better doing it with freshening up.

Best,
Ted

My Dad bought a Model 37 Ithaca 16 ga. somewhere around '54-'55 that I grew up shooting in the '60's. It got proper care, but over the next 20 years it just lost most of its blue from constant use until it was just a silvery brownish blue, very thin. I regretfully had it re-blued it in the "80's. Wish I hadn't.

And Ted, cars are cars and paint is paint. Guns are different.

But I think what Ted is trying to say is, you should go ahead with the re-blue. I really think that is what he is trying to say.

Really.
JR

Of all the things in life to regret, you regret having an Ithaca 37 from the 1950s reblued?

Why? Did it hurt the $250 or so value? How much so? Did it not work correctly when it was all over? Could you no longer hit anything with it?

I honestly don't get that.

Finish, is applied to metal, to preserve the metal. When that finish, be it paint, blueing, plating, or raw linseed oil, has given up the ghost, the metal is on it's own. Any finish is applied pretty much for that reason, only.

Paint, plating, and lowly blue are only finish. They have no other reason to be there. Steel is steel, and it all looks pretty much the same after a few years of hard outdoor use, in the absence of some sort of finsh.

Hot blue is pretty durable. What Ted is saying is a gun with no finish left on it, isn't really all it is cracked up to be.

Patina looks good-on your guns, John. If that is what you like. I guess.

Best,
Ted

I had a date with Patina once, no regrets there. She was all she was cracked up to be.
JR

Did you ever have a gun turn out too good? I am now really tempted to make the rest of this circa 1914 gun look as good as the stock does. With the new (replacement) stock on the gun, in the factory original length (13 1/2-inches) and with the factory butplate, she's 6lbs even. The shorter and milder, semi-pistol grip stock doesn't even seem to be a problem, and if anything it compliments the 25-inch barrel. This gun is light, quick- pointing, and with 20 points of choke, should be deadly on upland gamebirds. If I thought I could get a solid rib and a re-blue on it in time for early October, I'd be sorely tempted. It would be $500 well-spent.

If you're simply looking for a hot blue to spruce it up, I had Mel Doyle's gunshop in Plummer, ID do a reblue for me on a beater Rem Model 11 16 ga, I polished up and sent his way. It turned out very nice.

He does the standard blue for somewhere around $100.00 and the high polish for around $150.00, if he does all the work. If I remember correctly, he charged me $60.00 for the job he did on the Model 11-it was disassembled and polished to 400 grit. He told me he put a bit more shine on it than the 400 grit I turned it over to him, with.

Cameron: Thanks for that, but I'm probably looking to do this old Winchester a little better than that. On another forum (that is severely virus laden!) I read that while Simmons (and others) can do the job, there may be unintended consequences. Need to research that a bit more.

I'm always amazed at the number of "Rust-Bucket" guns described as having "Original Finish." I am not really aware of any gun-makers who shipped their guns out covered in Rust.