Someone please explain why this fake Rigby is bringing such a premium??????

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=342625474

fool born every minute.....

Can it possibly be

Is it really a Crescent?

Rigby copied Crescent's action design!!!???

"Shot and regulated by Rigby"!!!! LOL.
Lipstick on a pig wouldnt you say!!
Looks like a Quail Special"???

Well look at the bright side, for just $3,100.00 dollars he's getting a nicely worn John Rigby labeled shotgun case!!

At a show in PA several years ago, I saw an identical L.C. Smith. I have also seen identical Parkers, but I knew they weren't, because Parkers are boxlocks. Good luck to the "Buyer".

Priciest crescent I have ever seen.

I sent the seller a message asking him why he was selling a Crescent Arms shotgun as a Rigby?

The Proof Marks are obvious forgeries too! Apart from the fact that they are just plain wrong the 'Not For Ball' mark was 1875 to 1887 and the 'Maximum' mark was 1896 to 1904. Not even researched it before adding the spurious marks. An English .410 just wouldn't be as heavy as that. Anyway, 1/2 ounce loads would not have come in until after 1913 here in England as all .410's prior to that had the 2" chamber for 3/8th. ounce of shot. What a Wally! Rigby's would not have turned out such a poorly finished firearm. The seller wants prosecuting. Lagopus.....

Good thinking! It will be interesting to hear what he says, IF he answers back.

Best!

Greg

They went to all that trouble to engrave it and case color it, and didn't lengthen the short tang after they straightened it out for the straight grip conversion? As if Rigby would have put a short tang on a straight grip? Geez. And it has 33 bids at over $3k? Wow. That's just incredible.

yeah, but da case colors are really nice...

I think someone posted this image of the Quail Model innerds here. This is the last and crude variant of the Crescent hammerless lock



Note the 'Rigby' SN is 6748

What is the rod extending from the back of the frame?

That rod is probably the auto safe actuator.
That is a really beautiful gun, how the hell do people get away with these blatent scams ??

When they got done hogging that wood out there is not much left to bear against. I suspect if you wanted and did it right you end up with twice the wood in a well inlet stock job. Still even though one horn has chipped it has lasted a long time considering how little wood is left.

Photo of Cresent 410

http://p2.la-img.com/1211/25787/9572497_1_l.jpg

Sorry I don't know how to post the Photo just the link to it.

Thanks

Hello oscar, to show your photo,

all you have to do is type in a [img] with no spaces before your sting and type in a [/img] after the string with no spaces

Give it a try

Good luck
Mike

Did anyone notify GunBroker about the scam? They'll stop this sale.

AkMike,

Great idea! It is done...

"Dear Sir or Madam,

There is a fraudulent auction taking place. It is for a faked John Rigby & Co. London .410 ga 410 SxS Sidelock; Auction # 342625474. The gun is actually a Crescent Arms.

There is a thread on Doublegunshop.com where many are discussing this:
http://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=326359&nt=3&page=1

Respectfully submitted,
Mark Ouellette"

Ah! The Marines have landed. Good for you Mark!

According to Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers" , this serial number was used by Rigby between 1830-1835. Long before the 410 existed, much less cartridges.

Ron Gabriel in his " American & British 410 Shotguns" makes no mention of Rigby as a maker of 410 shotguns.



Take a look at the bell of the barrels here. Looks amazing like the crescent photo posted above.



Rigby would never allow this glaring miss fit to leave the shop.



As to the "12 King Street" address on the barrels:
Rigby was indeed on King Street;
In 1931 J W C Barratt (formerly of J Barratt & Son of 6 Mitre Street, Aldgate) managed the Sackville Street shop, he was still with the company in 1955 when the shop moved to 32 King Street, St James's.

In 1984 J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd bought the company and in 1985 moved it to their premises at 5 King Street, Covent Garden

However, the only gunmaker I can find at "12 King Street" was George Mason;
George Mason, son of John of Sydney Street, Stepney, he was recorded in business at 128 High Street, Whitechapel in 1837. He was next recorded in 1840 at 12 King Street, Commercial Road when he became a freeman of the Gunmakers Company.

Pete

Here is a bit about Rigby.

John Rigby was born in Dublin in 1758. At one time the firm claimed establishment in 1735, others claim it was established in 1775 when John would have been 17 years of age, and married his wife, Catherine.
A John Rigby was a gun maker in Dublin in 1635, it is likely he was related but this has not been confirmed. The John Rigby who "founded" the famous firm may well have inherited the family business of a relative.

By about 1800 the firm traded from 19 Suffolk Street, Dublin, as gun and pistol manufacturers, they were involved in wholesale, retail and export markets. By this time the firm had been appointed "Gunmakers to His Majesty's Ordnance".

John Rigby died in 1818 and his sons, William Rigby and John Jason Rigby took over, re-naming the firm Wm & Jno Rigby (also sometimes known as W & J Rigby).

In 1841 the firm were recorded in the Dublin Almanac and General Register of Ireland as William & John Rigby, gun barrel factory and shooting gallery, 24 Suffolk Street and Wicklow Street. Precisely when they moved to 24 Suffolk Street is not known.

John Jason Rigby died in the early 1850s but the name of the firm did not change.

In 1854 a patent was granted for improvements to firearms (No. 1976).

When William Rigby died in 1858 his son, John (b.1829), succeeded to the business but again, the name of the business did not change. John saw the potential of the London market and in about 1859 opened an office or showroom at 9 Staple Inn, Holborn.

On 10 April 1860 another patent together with W N Norman was taken out for a sideways sliding revolver barrel (No. 899).

Also in 1860, on 21 December, John Rigby and J Needham patented a hinged and sliding chamber for a breech action and the coiled brass cartridge case (No. 3140).

On 8 July 1862 a patent was granted to J Rigby for a horizontally hinged barrel (No. 1966).

In 1866 the firm opened a showroom at 72 St James's Street, London, and the name changed to John Rigby & Co.

On 6 February 1867 a rebounding lock was patented (No. 332).

In 1871 a locking hook which entered the rear lumps was patented(No. 1098), this patent also covered miniature rifle tubing.

In 1875 John Rigby and W M Scott patented a choke reinforcing device (No. 312).

In 1879 John Rigby and T Bissell patented their rising third bite (No. 1141).

On 21 March 1882 John Rigby and L F Banks patented a side-lever falling block rifle (No. 1361).

On 28 January 1884 John Rigby patented a trigger safety (No. 2274).

In 1887 John Rigby was appointed Superintendent of the Royal Small-Arms factory at Enfield which was making the Lee Enfield .303 rifle. In his absence his son, Ernest John Rigby, ran the business with his younger brother, Theo.

On 10 November 1888 John Rigby patented a bayonet attachment clip (No. 16321).

In about 1890 the firm was appointed gun maker to the Prince of Wales.

The 1891 census records John as John M A Rigby. He was living at Ordnance House, Ordnance Road, Enfield, with his wife, Julia (b.1843 in Huddersfield, Yorkshire) and their children, Hugh M (b.1871 a medical student), Arthur B (b.1872 an engineering student), Ethel S (b.1878 and listed as Ethel G in the 1901 census) and Claude M (b.1882); all the children were born in Ireland.

By 1892, managing the Dublin and London businesses was proving difficult and the firm decided to move all their manufacturing to London. Trulock & Harris (Trulock, Harris & Richardson) took over the Dublin business, and a factory was opened at 12 Ham Yard, Great Windmill Street.

In 1897 John Rigby became Chairman of the Gunmakers Association, a position he held until 1900.

Also in 1897 John Rigby and L E Atkins patented a single trigger mechanism (No. 301) and the firm made the first .450 calibre cordite rifle. Rigby subsequently introduced the .416 and their .275 became the standard deer stalking rifle. The first .600 rifle was made for W J Jeffery in 1903, other rifle makers followed notably John Wilkes, but Rigby did not make .600 rifles until 1980.

In 1900 the firm became a limited liability company, John Rigby & Co (Gunmakers) Ltd.

In the 1901 census John and Julia were recorded living at 34 Lewin Road, Streatham, with a previously unrecorded son, Ernest J (b.1869). Both Ernest J and Theodore were described as gun manufacturers. At some time the family lived at 175 Branswick Street.

In 1906, the government banned the sale in India and Sudan of, for non-military use, guns and ammunition, cartridge cases and bullets of .450 and .303 calibres (the military calibres). There were substantial numbers of these rifles, and in the wrong hands these were an obvious risk. In direct response to the ban Rigby developed the .470 cartridge which competed with Holland's .500/.465, Jeffery's .475 and Westley Richards .476 cartridge. In the smaller calibres, the .360 HV Express became popular.

On 25 January 1908 Theo Rigby registered patent No. 1722 for cocking indicator on the lock plate of a side-lock action.

In 1908 the company moved to 43 Sackville Street and in 1911 they expanded the factory from 12 to 12 & 13 Great Windmill Street. The factory manager at this time was Bob Henderson who had previously worked for Boss & Co and had helped design the famous Boss over/under shotgun.

In 1914 Ernest Rigby became Master of the Gunmakers Company.

In 1916 John Rigby died.

In 1924 the factory moved to smaller premises at 5 Crown Yard, Stanhope Street.

In 1925 Theo Rigby became Chairman of the Gunmakers Company.

In 1931 J W C Barratt (formerly of J Barratt & Son of 6 Mitre Street, Aldgate) managed the Sackville Street shop, he was still with the company in 1955 when the shop moved to 32 King Street, St James's.

In the 1930s the company used John Wilkes for repair and restoration work, and for the supply of Birmingham made guns.

In 1963 the shop moved to 28 Sackville Street and in 1969 to 13 Pall Mall.

In 1973 the workshop moved to 100 St Martin's Lane. At about this time the company was run by David Marx but whether or not he owned it is unknown.

In 1984 J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd bought the company and in 1985 moved it to their premises at 5 King Street, Covent Garden.

In 1987 the factory and shop moved to 66-68 Great Suffolk Street, Southwark.

From 1993 if not a little before, Abbiatico & Salvinelli and possibly other makers supplied guns to Rigby.

In 1997 the goodwill and rights to the Rigby name were bought by Rogue River Rifle Works and a new company, John Rigby & Co Inc. was formed at 1317 Spring Street, Paso Robles, California 93446, USA Tel; 0018052274706, Fax; 0018052274723. The records of the company are held there, although some information may be available from J Roberts & Son (Gunmakers) Ltd, 22 Wyvil Road, Vauxhall, London SW8 2TG; Tel 0207 6221131.

Pete

We'll see. I reported an outright scam to GB on the 18th of this month. It took them 6 days to respond, and here's what they sent me:

Contact Customer Service
Issue #: 542386
Status:
Closed
Date Opened: Saturday, May 18, 2013
Item Number: 342148499
Subject: Fraud
5/24/2013 9:13:33 PM
GBSupport1111 Thank you - we will review the listings.
5/18/2013 12:53:51 AM
Gregory Westberg I see that the same gun is being offered by two different sellers. Same pictures and description. Item Number: 342301464 and 342148499

It could also be that the seller doesn't know sh** about Rigby or any other Brit maker and is going off the what's stamped on the gun and the ratty case. Who knows, he may have bought it thinking it was an original Rigby. Not defending him, he should do his research before posting a gun for sale. Just a possibility.

Best!

Greg

It's a spoof.

Like a Ford Pinto with a Rolls Royce hood ornament.

Somebody really went over the top to create this.

It's beautiful.

The 'proof' marks are a hoot.

A nice Sheffield Arms Co./Crescent/Smith

Pretty sloppy job of stamping- spacing, letters tilted--WTF???

From the looks of the pro casecolor job on the frame ,I suspect someone saw an opportunity when an already tarted up Cresent 410 was put up for sale.

The Bbl finish looks poor in contrast to the rest of the gun and the bbl's where all the 'Englishing Up' was done to it.
No frame proofs. No Rigby lettering on the frame.
Everything that says it's an English gun is on the poorly finished bbls.

Add/change the bbl marks and someone's pet Cresent project gun became a Rigby.

That work is amature at best. The proof lettering was attempted by hand, the top Rigby lettering looks like they made use of a pantograph.
The finish looks like a quick cold blue that worked about like you'd expect the wipe on products to work.
Perhaps any existing top rib matting and original lettering was removed also leaving the smooth surface.

Just my thoughts..

It's still up there.

Good job you lot are on to it as someone may have been taken in by it.

Pete M, Ron Gabriels book only touches the surface of British .410's. No doubt Rigbys would have sold examples and may even have made some. .410's can be found here bearing all manner of makers names. I think the current owner of Rigbys name would be most upset. Lagaopus.....

I don't see the second listing on #342148499 as suggested by one poster. But the Rigby is still listed and the buyer is still on the hook. Who are these bidders?

Yes, I know the Gabriel book is not the final word. On the American side of it, he misses the ball all together. Researcher has turned up ad's, etc. that basically make Gabriel's writing mute. Gabriel never follows the different American development path that was terminated when the 410 made it's appearance.

Still, I thought he would not have missed a 410 produced by such a storied London name. Perhaps I am wrong.

I agree the current owners of the Rigby name would not be amused.

Given the poor workmanship evident in the photos, how can some one bid $3k plus even if was genuine?

Pete

Interesting. Over on the Gunbroker chat board I posted a notice of the fradulent sale and the moderator removed it within a day. Not surprising though, I knew the post was out of line but did it anyhow.

I'm not sure Gunbroker can be expected to police all it's auctions. Certainly there must be a large number of misrepresentations--some innocent and some intentional--and it would not be possible to have expert knowledge in all fields.

Actually, buying on auction sited is always "caveat emptor". If someone gets suckered into this gun as being legitimate I almost feel they deserve the penalty do their lack of due diligence.

Gunbroker has fraud protection, theoretically. I'm sure it works as well as eBay's.

Unbelievable. I clicked on the thread and then clicked on the original posters link. I thought to myself, that this looks like a Crescent. After reading through, my suspicions were confirmed. The knowledge on this doublegun board and others that we here all frequent, is invaluable. This fake auction is akin to, maybe even worse than, a guy trying to pass off a double with ELG and a crown, and W. Richards on the side as a Westley Richards. Unbelievable and sad. Buyer beware.

Why would the moderator remove Joe Wood's post about the bad gun? I'm not familiar with that forum, but someone here must have an answer.

A lovely example of a terrible fake....

Ain't it great?

I'd love to know the history of this...

As in what the guys were drinking when they concieved the idea.

And... why the present owner is so clueless to represent it as he does.

The 'rest of the story' begs telling.

Well, the seller has been informed by several people on this board of the true nature of the animal and I guess they haven't responded to any of us. Oh well......onwards. We have other dragons to slay. (Boy, I sure got a lot of manure thrown at me on that board for my post pointing out the spurious item!)

This isn't all that uncommon. This one is only going for $3K.
Check out this one.
http://lefeverforum.informe.com/frank-lefever-presentation-gun-dt1237.html

True, plus the fact that when you get burned once because you did not do due diligence before writing the check, you learn a lesson that will never be forgotten. Most of us have been there and paid our dues.

You did all you could do, Joe. There will always be people who don't want to be educated.

SRH

I had a similar experience to Joe's some years ago on another board, pointed out a clearly less than accurate representation and was clobbered by the seller and his buddies since they were all apparently big dogs on that board. I was polite in my post & and simply pointed out that the gun was not as represented. Seller did not change their advertisement. I got over it & moved on. Its the intermentnet for the unwary.

I think it is nothing more than a Crescent that has been polished and re-casehardened. Trying to pass this off as a real Rigby is a crime and the seller should be sued in a court of law. Bob

This seller has an FFL. Could he lose his license for his
actions?

The Emperor's New Clothes:

Point them out at your peril.

Gunbroker does not police their sellers for items listed or even how they complete deals. I learned this from first hand problems with a seller and the lip service Gunbroker pretended to offer. It was fraud and they refused to even allow me to post negative feedback. So I refuse to use them ever again. They do police the buyers. I guess they know where the money is and do not want to piss off their source of income.

KY Jon, that is worth remembering...and telling friends.

"Good morning,"

"Thank you for the information. I am meeting with the present owner that I am selling this for this morning. I am not a expert. A lot of people are actually rude in their letters. You were informative. I will be putting some type of statement on GB. Thank you,"
Terry

I once posted on another forum (clocks not guns) about an item on the best known auction site that was fraudulent. I was 100% certain because I owned the actual serial number of the item being sold and the pictures had been taken (stolen) from the genuine listing in which I had won the item a few months previously. My item, and the original seller were quite genuine. The second (and a subsequent third) listing were from another seller.

I posted a warning on 3 forums - and one forum took down my post saying it was against rules to post whilst the auction was 'live'. They understood it was a fraud, but 'rules was rules' and I must follow them.

Regrettably, two people (at least) lost several hundred pounds each to a fraudulent seller who turned out to be in China. I never found out if they got refunded by the auction site or payment agent.

The profile of the firing pins is a nice illustration of Rigby's attention to design detail and quality of workmanship.

You could lose more than money or credibility with this gun. Given the sharp edges and sloppy fit in the 'ole I'd rate the gun as potentially dangerous. One sticky-up primer and there goes an eye.

Eug

It was a $30 gun not a hundred plus dollar gun so fit and finish is gong to be crude. Most Cresents were bought for kids 75 years ago. Until I got old I knew that .410 were kid guns like a 20 was a gun for a woman. You learn as you get older if you try. If you are gong to spend 3K for a gun you better know what you are buying and not just read a listing as gospel. Because this gospel is about a fake as they come.

Terry, thank you for your attention to this matter. I see you did add a note concerning questions about the guns authenticity. You are a class act.

I have bought a number of shotguns on Gunbroker and it is by far my favorite site. And I have never had a problem. However, I have always had direct telephone communications with the sellers and quickly determine if I am going to be comfortable with the trade. I believe 99% or more are honest sellers. Anyone who neglects developing a direct relationship with the seller is courting disaster.

This is Rigby's response to a 'heads up' on their Facebook page : -

As discussed this certainly not a Rigby and proves we must all be careful in the secondhand gun market.

$4580.... with another 4 days left in the auction! WHAT ARE THESE GUYS THINKING?!?!?!?!

The seller recently posted an update to the listing.

"There has been questions concerning the gun's authenticity. The owner of the Rigby presented it to the NRA apraiser's at the covention in St. Louis last year. No red flags were raised. The owner has stated that he will extend the inspection period to 10 days. If is not what you expected send it back for a refund."

....over 5k now and 9 bids after announcing the discrepancy. duh...

All those “know-it-alls” on that double gun forum are just bad mouthing it so they can buy it and get a deal of a lifetime.

Or, maybe, just maybe, there are a lot of people out there that desperately need and are desperately seeking a John Rigby labeled shotgun case. Did you ever think of that? Because, if anyone thinks that shotgun was made by John Rigby they need to get into a new business, like flower arranging or something, and not guns.

Regardless if the person selling the gun posted an "update", with receiving so many letters and after reading the comments on here pointing out why it is a fake, plus Rigby stating it was not made by them, you would think he would pull the listing instead of taking somebody's word for it at a convention where I doubt the appraiser spent much time researching the gun. He may have appraised condition but not authenticity.

I totally agree. Not much of a disclaimer.

So, Does allowing 10 days to escape make the website any less supportive of the fraud?

To me it doesn't. Sort of like knowingly selling sour milk but giving you the right to return it if you discover it's sour.

John Rigby & Co. London .410 ga 410 SxS Sidelock Auction # 342625474
Current Bid $5,900.00 No Reserve! Started at $0.01
Quantity 1 # of bids 50
Time left Listing has Ended

UNBELIEVABLE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lets wait about 2-3 weeks and see what kind of feedback that sale generates.

Buyer left seller positive feedback. Poor guy.

I was following this thread intermittently. I would say that there's a chance the seller, when he discovered the truth, enlisted a "buddy" to "buy" the gun and then feign satisfaction with the purchase. No way of knowing, of course, and my intent is not to badmouth either party, but I know this type of thing goes on behind the scenes, not just with guns. Regardless of what really transpired, hopefully nobody actually got "stuck" with the psuedo-Rigby.

The winner had been bidding since $3200. He has 86 transactions on gunbroker.

Good point Craig, some kind of manipulation that an auction site could never uncover.