Will be really thankful for the information how stock dimensions should depend of shooter dimensions.

Ivans,
I would recommend this book "Gunfitting" by Michael Yardley

http://www.amazon.com/Gunfitting-Quest-P...TF8&s=books

I don't think you will find that there is sufficient correlation to be worth while. I am not aware of anyone who claims to be able to measure the shooter and predict stock dimensions. Good idea if it could be done.

Ok. But why when we are ordering a gun from the maker we are making some measurements of our body?

The Gun Digest ,1988 edition, published a fitting chart used by W.C. Scott & Sons. I have been using it in my business for over 17 years now. It asks for dimensions of the shooter's physique and some information about your shooting style. However, talking to the maker when filling out the chart allows the professional to fine tune the "chart" for each customer. To date, I have a 98% blind fitting success rate on custom gunstocks using this system.

I was suprised and pleased to find that the American Custom Gunmakers Guild uses the same chart in their booklet..."Guide to Building A Custom Gun." The booklet is available from the ACGG.

DES/TSD
what Gun Digest do you mean?
Concerning ACGG. I asked them. Unfortunately I received no reply.

I would agree with DES for those that shoot " gun mounted " style. But " gun down " would have to be done in person with the fitter. JMHO - Paul

I've never ordered a gun with custom dimensions but I'm not sure what you just said is even true. If I were ordering one, I'd tell them what I wanted in LOP, DAC, DAH and cast-off. I would not expect them to make it based on my shirt size or other irrelevant figures.
This reply is to Ivans second post.

Ivans

The Gun Digest Book printed for 1988. The new magazine with that name is not the same thing. The book has been printed for many years and is a yearly publication. If you will give me a fax number, I have an original copy of the chart, I will send it to you. I obtained the chart from England via direct communications with the company holding the W.C. Scott name in 1988. I am sorry you didn't get a reply from ACGG. I will investigate.

As for low gun and high gun fitting. As a custom builder for over 20 years,(I have been in this industry since 1981) my clients have been from every form of shooting style and firearm catagory. So far, I have a 98% success story on first try. The remaining 2% have been "adjusted" not remade. That 2% encouraged me to give the client a trial period for shooting the gun before final delivery. It has been well worth the extra time and satisfied clients. It may also have helped that I have worked for companies in the past that had clients present for actual shooting at patterning boards,clay tagets and range time. I learned a lot from those sessions that has been used in fitting via the W.C. Scott method.

I will also say that there are no "average" shooters. It is up to the client and the builder to talk and talk not only about what they look like but how they shoot. Everyone has their own style, even if taught a specific discipline style. There will come a time when difficulties will arise and the percentage will fall, so far, not yet.

Most (all) Best gunmakers employ Instructors/Gunfitters who would meet with the prospective new buyer at the pattern plate.
There the gunfitter would advise and perhaps educate /change the customer in the correct method of mounting and shooting, with the use of a 'Try-Gun' the customers basic preferred measurements would be arrived at.These dimensions would then be conveyed to the workshop to give the stocker some dimensions to work to.
I believe the purpose of the W.C.Scott chart was to allow the customer to provide a set of dimensions that Scott's could select a stock that was near to the final form and possibly only then required minor alterations.It allowed them the insight as to wether they were stocking for a Giant, Dwarf, stick insect or rotund jolly old chap.

Good stuff from Dennis and Salopian. It would be nice to have that chart posted here. I'd like to have a copy of it for my "interesting shotgun stuff" notebook. I'd also be happy to accept it as an e-mail attachment. My e-address is shown in my profile.
Thank you,
JL

Salopian;

I do believe your last statement rings true! I believe one can improve one's shooting with instruction. I know from experience though, not every shooter is receptive to changing what they perceive works well for them.

I witnessed several separate to change a shooter's style during the commission of a custom project. I was a supporting party during the sessions. The results were less than pleasant. The customer didn't wish to change their style of shooting. In the day of litigation minded people,(it became evidentto me anyway) pleasing the customer and making the stock fit their style was better for business.

I do encourage people to improve and take lessons from qualified people and am willing to use other fitter's measurments in building custom guns. I do believe in try-guns (I have built three for other companies) and I do believe that the customer being in your house is the best possible experience for both fitter and client. However IMO, today many people don't wish to travel to out of the way craftsmen. So, I use this method and it has worked well. If one travels to the client, the trade off is no working time on the bench to meet the demand of work. Of course a happy client is much better for business than an unhappy one.

Jim;

We currently do not have scanning capability so I could post it. The old computer crashed late last year, so we had to replace it. We have misplaced the calibration sheet for the HP printer so that scanning function will work. We have asked HP for help but it is an older scanner and support is slow. We don't currently have the funds for a new machine (too many visits to hospitals in the last four months). We are working on it though. Thus the need for a fax number.

To DES/TSD
thank you for all your explanations. If it's impossible to scan mentioned table I can't ask to fax it because I'm from abroad - from Ukraine. It could be costly for you.
Let me ask you to assist in contacting with ACGG. I would buy such book from them.

To opponents
why in an older catalog of Purdey there is a chart with shooters dimensions for fill in?

Ivan's;

I just checked the ACGG website. Look in the menu for "Learning about Custom Gunmaking". Click on the wording and it will take you to the area you need. The booklet entitled: "Realizing Your Dream: A Client's Guide To Building A Custom Gun" is available on their order form. It costs 24.05 USD. I do not know what postage would cost to you. The book may be ordered on line with a VISA credit card. I will still call the office and see what gives on not getting contact to you.

The same form I have been using for my buisness is encluded in this booklet. It also has really good suggestions/instructions for a client. It is also a good refresher course in ethics for those of us in the profession.

ivans
In Richard Mahrholdt's book "Waffen-Lexikon", data regarding bodily measurements and the fitting of shotguns are presented under the heading "Schaeftung". This book may be available to you in a library. And used copies can be bought on the internet.

I second or third or whatever the wish that someone would post the chart or a link to it somewhere. Please???? Jake

I gathered information from two charts. I wonder if these dimensions are even close to those charts mentioned in earlier posts?
I wouldn´t have my gunstock made according to this chart, but I suppose it give´s you a rough estimation of the dimensions.

Thanks you, colleagues!

ivans;

Because of the help provided by Mr Furman ( of this BBS) the chart is available via e-mail. I don't know how to import it to this site. I'm better at gunstocks than computers. If you will contact me at thestockdr@riflemag.com I will send it to you.

ivans;

Because of the help provided by Mr Furman ( of this BBS) the chart is available via e-mail. I don't know how to import it to this site. I'm better at gunstocks than computers. If you will contact me at thestockdr@riflemag.com I will send it to you.

DES/TSD
thank you. I just sent you an email.

to pokslok
where is this chart from? Could you mention the source?

To all who asked for the chart. Frustration reigns right now. I have not been able to successfully complete the transfer of the information. Last night, after several different attempts and variations of transfer methods, I become unable to comply to the requests. The e-mail addresses given were all returned undeliverable. I believe machines do have it in for me!

The PDF file came through great! Thanks David Furman. I have been unable to forward them. Something is blocking this for some reason in MY computer. Still trying to get it done. I have three deadlines in the shop to meet and so please be patient. I will get it sent ASAP

Hi Ivans. I have made the chart and the drawings based on Valmet dimensioning chart and on an other chart from unknown source. Values in the both charts are quite near to each other.

to pokslok

thanks. I cheked this chart on my shotgun and found it (chart) very realistic.

I have sent out several e-mails today with the chart. If you have not gotten the chart, please let me know. Several of the e-mails have been returned multiple times. I do not know why. I am persistant though.

Figured out have to change it to an image and post it!! (probably means I have too much spare time at work)

Someone mentioned a copyright issue, if this violates some copyright law I would be happy to take this down, but it seems that this might help out with the issues above

it looks very interesting. But here the main sense of the topic is missed - dependence between shooter dimensions and stock dimensions is absent.

ivans;

This chart was made for reference material. The shooter's physical dimensions provide information to the stocker, because of experience and conversation with the client, providing an accurate starting point in which to build a stock.

The factory dimensions are listed in the chart for starting reference points only. Stock dimensions can be changed depending on the whole chart. I guess the best that can be said is that the chart is a tool not a crystal ball. Experience in fitting and shooting helps the stocker identify potential problems and seek solutions to them.
Since you are an idividual unique and special, your stock will not be the same as the one I need.

If you are refering to the medical anatomical science of proportions,in relation to fitting a gunstock, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. My measurment from finger to elbow is 12 1/2". I shoot rifle at 13 5/8" LOP and Shotgun at 14" LOP. If you followed the strict rule of anatomy I should shoot all guns at 12 1/2" LOP

That rule doesn't hold true for myself. In some shooters it does. I am not the exception to the rule. The factory European shotgun LOP is usually one inch longer than the American LOP. Most Americans are rifle shooters and shoot their shotguns the same way. The style of shooting does make a difference in how the chart is applied to stock dimensions. The physical dimensions help identify special needs to consider in building the stock. All factors are put together to make a complete package. The proof of success is a happy client.

DES/TSD

I agree with your opinion. But when I started this topic I mean that should exists some dependence between shooter dimensions and dimensions of the appropriate stock. Moreover, this dependence should be clearly described in form of some table where to certain shooters dimension will correspond concrete stock dimension. Such dependence should be not necessarily mathemetic or anatomic but rathero empiric.

The confirmation of my statement is the chart and table of Valmet posted above by pokslok; chart of W&C Scott (from you), very similar chart from Purdey catalog (I have seen) - if such companies are asking for client dimensions they should know the corresponding figures for stock.

I'm looking for such "figures".

ivans

There very well might have been at some time in the past. Many things became deep dark secrets never to be shared with others. This might have become one of the things that was passed down orally from journeyman to apprentice. I have never seen anything specific in writing. What I have learned has come from others and listening to older craftsmen/women when this subject has come up. Building stocks for the Competive Clays arena helped solidify observations of my own.

Maybe Crosschisels will weigh in and give the benefit of his knowledge. Who knows, I have been wrong on subjects before. Never too late to learn something new.

Tables and sets of figures and dimensions are a wonderful thing to have for referance.
But never forget basics and fundamentals of gunfitting.
This was never illustrated better than by this little anecdote related to me by my old friend Don Wilkinson, a highly respected fitter for amongst others Purdey & Churchill.
Don was loading for a Toff on Gurston Down, shooting at stratospheric partridge.
Lordy couldn't get to grips with these challenging birds and called for his trap gun.Instant success! "That's better, I needed more choke" says Lordy.
"With respect Sir" says Don, "You needed more lead, and the higher combed stock of the trap gun has just given you that"

DES/TSD
If things look like that and it's hard to find such written information I have to agree with you that


salopian
metioned figures are based on "basics and fundamentals of gunfitting" and own experiance of stockmaker. I suppose that every good experianced stockmaker is able to make such table. Anod moreover I suppose they have it at the least in thier mind.