The photos are of my W.R. Pape 1921 vintage showing the carving as opposed to engraving on the fences. I quite like this feature and would like to see some more examples from other members collections.


BOB

Interesting idea. Your Pape is unusual for a British gun, particularly the background for the carving - it looks more German.

These are the fences from a Verney Carron Commodore from the 1950s:

Nah, not German but either Bohemian or French.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here are a few from my collection:

All have been dated between 1900 and 1930

Lovena 12 gauge


Pieper 12 gauge


Manufrance Ideal


J & W Tolley 12 gauge single shot


I'm not sure how well it shows in the photo but the sculpting on the Tolley has then been engraved.

1959 16ga. Antonio Zoli, carved/deeply engraved??

Carved fences on a Verney-Carron Silversides (their top model, and unfortunately not mine)

Here are a few more high grade Ideals, all with carved fences. Gun are not mine so not in control of the quality of photos:

James Roblin?

Now that is some high art by an artisan.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, that is a Ideal Perfection 16 gauge I found for sale last year about this time of year. It sold VERY fast. 2 hours after I saw it, once I had determined to try to get it, it was gone. One reason I really liked it is that it looks, to my eye, like it was engraved/carved by the same craftsman who did my 12 gauge.

The 16 gauge:


My 12 gauge:

Skeettx, what nationality is that gun?

What's the verbiage on the side/bottom of the tube of your 12 bore?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I knew you'd get to that! LOL



]

Canvasback it is Spanish
Made by HZ
E1 date code = 1959

Canvasback, thanks for all the effort but it is the phrase on the lower side that piques my interest. From the load data I would guess that the sporting weapon was destined to a client in German during a time of reciprocity?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Alfred Dzikowski

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, the gun is not with me now. These are pics already taken. CJO from this site has the gun at the moment, working some of his magic.

When you say lower left, do you mean lower left of tubes or lower left of flats?

It is something like "Manufacture Francaise D'Armes ..."

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, maybe I'll go for a drive tomorrow and take some better pictures. This is the best I can do for now.

I like the looks of that Alfred Dzikowski.

James

The carving didn't really stop at the fences on this gun.

Jebus! That one is off the charts Daryl. What is it?

You people have some beautiful guns over there and it is a good thing to! Because public gun ownership on your side of the Atlantic will I feel last far longer than the government here in the UK intend, unfortunately the political writing is on the wall for ending public gun ownership which I am sure it will happen here within the next thirty years. I am glad in a way that I will not live to see it all end, my hope is the best specimens of the British gunmakers art will be exported to other countries and not collected in some thoughtless destructive Government cull.

Canvasback, it's a Schwartz Bros. of Luxemburg.

Willian Evens

Smith Deluxe; a bit gaudy, but not bad for a hen house farm implement

D M Lefever "cross bolt" from about 1904

Love those oak leaves!

Is that a gold acorn? How about some more pics of the DM Lefever?

Best,
Craig

Canvasback, nah, don't go on a walkabout just for that. For now I'd say Mr. Hallquit's post wins the prize.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Forgot to respond to this, Raimey. The gun came out of a large estate in Canada. The three guns I have seen from that collection (an English, an American and this Ideal) are all very high quality guns. The other two besides mine, quite stunning! No idea how long this Ideal was in that collection or the journey it took starting in 1920 to ultimately arrive in my safe. The previous owner bought it from the estate and sold it to me within a year.

1912 M Ogris 16ga. from Austria.

Craig,

Those are gold acorns and acorn caps in the oak leaf scroll.

Here is the side of the gun. This is probably a 4AA quality gun. Most of the cross bolts seem to be grade marked under the pistol grip cap, and this is a straight grip gun; no identification as to grade is on it.

Thank you all for a tremendous response. There are some really beautiful examples of the engraver/carver's chisel work in those photographs. My Pape looks rather crude when compared to some but I like the simplistic approach. Oak leaves seem to be the favourite subject for the carving on fences, does this indicate a Germanic influence?

Thanks once again

Bob

Thanks Terry! That is one special Lefever! I always wonder how many man-hours it takes to build and engrave some of these guns? It boggles the mind.
Best,
Craig

16 bore WR Delux

Here are a couple.

My old timey Baker
Not really carved, but . . .

Verney-Carron Pionner 16 Ga

Daryl,

What is the make of the guns in your pictures? The first picture I recognize as sea shell fences on a Greener. Is that a sidelock Greener in your 3rd picture?

Thanks!

CJO, that 16 WR is really nice - congrats!

Daryl,

What is the gun in the last picture of your last post? How I would love to see images of that whole gun! The artistry and skill of that engraver is extraordinary.

Roger

1cdog, the guns are-----

Greener Imperial Monarch

Winchester 21

F. Thirafays

A Chicago maker/engraver whose name I cannot pull up right now

Bernard

Fred Adolph

Roger, what is it about that specific gun that really jumps out at you? A lot of these guns look extraordinary to me and while I will never be an engraver, I am trying to learn to see what someone such as yourself sees, as best I can.

Regards,

James

Ludwig Borovnik:







James Woodward & Sons:



Curl

Rigby 12 HG circa 1868

Jannsen Freres Live Pigeon Gun 1932

All the best

Skeeterbd

There's some beautiful guns on this thread for sure but one has stole my heart. The art nouveau style gun in the top picture from canvasback.
Maybe not everyone's cup of tea but I'd happily crawl through a barrel of broken glass to get my hands on one .
Absolutely stunning !
Do you have any more pictures ? I'd like some for my secret stash of gun porn

El Garro, here are a few more pics of that Art Nouveau Ideal Lunette even though they aren't just of the fences:

Roger, I sent you a couple of emails on the Adolph Hiawatha gun. Characters were taken from illustrations by Harrison Fisher from The Song of Hiawatha by Longfellow. Wedding, life, and death shown on the unusual piece.

Canvasback. Thank you for the pictures.
That gun is a beauty. Does it get used ?

El Garro, as I said in the original posting of that gun, those ones aren't mine. I only have one Ideal at the moment, shown in my original post. I like that Art Nouveau gun and if I owned it, I would use it as I use all my guns. However, at this stage of the game, I won't buy a Lunette. I live and hunt in Canada. There are many, many days that gloves are required. Thus, no Lunettes.

I wondered if it maybe belonged to someone you knew. I see what you mean about it being a no glove gun, still, it's one of the more unusual yet beautiful actions that I've ever seen.
Thanks again.

http://s209.photobucket.com/user/bedunbar/library/German%20Shotgun

Man,
I wish I had one now...some one slap up a close up of one those ribbandy /reedy top quality fences from an old vld Francotte say a 30 or 45 grade on up ..for me, would ya'?..yummm
franc

For my money, when the Germans got them right, their fences are the sexiest, particularly like in the gun above where the deep cut carves into the fences and then sweeps out to form the sideclip.

These fences are elegant but get lost in what may be one of the few engraving patterns that could make Tony Galazan blush:


A little subtler (and $90k cheaper):

James,

It is difficult to explain without a dissertation on ornamental design and engraving techniques. In brief, the engraver's work is of two parts. Designing the ornamental scrollwork and executing the design. Many engravers are better at one aspect than the other but the engraver in question was well versed in both. Many collectors focus on scenes and figures but most of us engravers judge by the scroll or other ornament such as oak leaf or acanthus. This is because, in many cases, the scenes and figures are often copied from established images and it is just a mater of technical skill to translate those images into engraving. The ornamental work is where the engraver can exercise his creativity (within the constraints of the client's budget). In the case of the Hiawatha/Adolph gun, the flow and development of the floral scrollwork shows an advanced understanding of ornamental design and how it is adapted to the multitude of contours of a gun's surfaces. The execution of the design using chisels, burins, and punches is equally skilled.

I'm afraid that all my verbiage above still does not answer your question. To do so I would need to create a PowerPoint with lines, circles, and arrows with annotation to point out all of the fine points and contrast them with images of other engraved guns of lesser skill and artistry. If we ever meet at a gun show, I may be able to give you some pointers. Until I can post images here without using Photobucket or something similar, I can only use words for explanation.

Regards,
Roger

Purdey 12 circa 1869

I think someone has ripped someone off with that Purdey. I would bet its more like 1869 than 1969.

Roger, that was exactly the kind of answer I hoped for. You may know too much, be too skilled, to remember how so little can be of value, but what you have said, however briefly, helps me a lot. Thank you.

James

Yes 300846 it was a typographical error on my part but a rip off I would not be too sure of that. What would you sooner have a truly craftsman made nitro proof one hundred plus year old Purdey with a history of people who have used it from King Edward V11, cabinet ministers, with one owner who bet some three million pounds on his Epsom Derby horse to win! And it did!!!
To a semi machined Purdey “Barking Iron” made in the 1960s. I know which one I would prefer to own, THIS ONE!!!!!!

No contest for me- of course I would have them both but the 1869 would be first !