I have a German Best Gun 16ga. double that my father had custom made in 1950 Berlin. He was USAF and stationed there for the airlift. I posted pictures and questions here in 2002 and received some good info. Howevedr, I have still not determined who the engraver was. My father told of seeing many pictures of guns done by this man and his family for royality dating way back so I feel his work is well known to someone. At the time this gun was made the Russians had pretty much shutdown the quality gun making trade. After delivering this gun to my father the man return to the Russian side and was to return later with a second set of barrels for the gun. He was never heard from again by my father. I suspect he has left some kind of mark hidden in the engraving that would ID his work to the trained eye and keep the Russian authorities from seeing it. Does anyone have a idea how a engraver might hide his mark? Thanks
Bill:
I believe few, if any, German engravers signed their work. I would 1st consult Ford, who too is a resident of Alabama. Where do you reside? Then there's Suhl resident expert engraver Hendrik Frühauf. Correlation of images is about the only ID method.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Thanks for this info. I'm located in Tuscaloosa,AL. I know slightly less than nothing about engraving so I do not know the names you have provided.
Bill,
I'm afraid you won't be able to ID the engraver unless someone recognizes his work.Most work was not signed unless requested or a special job by a well known engraver. There are a couple engravers that frequent this site, one of them might be able to help. His location and the time frame will help them. War Eagle.
Mike(22 miles from Auburn)
War Eagle Mike, and thanks. I from Auburn (mothers buried there) and married to a Tuscaloosa native. Can you say seriously divided house!
I'm trying to find this Ford that ellenbr mentions.
Hi bill
I worked in Germany a couple of times over the years and once visited the Waffenmuseum (Weapons Museum) at Suhl, Thuringia, Germany. They may be able to help you and if they can't they may know a man who can.
Address:
Waffenmuseum Suhl
Friedrich-König-Straße 19
D-98527 Suhl
Phone: 011 49 3681 72 06 98
Fax: 011 49 3681 72 13 08
E-mail: info@waffenmuseumsuhl.de
You did find him. "Der Ami" is Mike Ford.
LOL!!
OK, now that I've "found" Mike I have to ask... Mike, can I send you some pictures or even bring the gun down for you to examine?
I scanned in 4 pictures of some of the engraving to attach to this thread. However, I can not find the "file manager" on the full reply page that allows this according to FAQ's. Can someone point me to it. Thanks..
Forward them to me Bill & I'll paste them on the thread.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Bill,
Raimey will post them,or you can bring it down if you want. I have to admit that I know next to nothing about the engraving; in spite of the fact that I lived in Germany and knew several engravers personally.The advantage of posting them is that the engravers on the forum can see them and may recognize the work.
Mike
I sent the file to your email add. Thanks
That would be Raimey's email.
Very good Bill, just copy the IMG Code at the bottom of the links portion and paste it. Lovely upper and lower scear A&D breech-loader.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Using the link to the album anyone wishing to view will have the tools to zoom or whatever.. It's a public album.
Bill D,
This is not regular "run of the mill" pattern engraving. One of the engravers may actually recognize the work.
Mike
Mike, my father talked about seeing pictures of works the engraver and family had done for royality, especially for those hunting in India. I've had some discussions with collectors of german guns and they are the ones who called it a "best gun". Given that it was proofed 950 and my father telling me that the engraver could no longer get gold for inlay's, like he wanted, I think it is a unusal gun for the time period. For sure not the usual guild gun.
I'd say "best work" is a proper grade, if the rest of the gun is worty of the engraving, and I'd bet heavily it is, too. We can only imagine what it might have been had gold been available. Ah, yes, what might have been.
Best of luck in ID'ing the genius that did it.
DDA
I really wish the engraver had made it back from the Russian side with the 26" barrels. The 32" full's are a bit much for southern quail. I have used it on Pheasant up north and quail in the western desert of NM. We're a family who believes in using our firearms.
Here's the ivory inlay on the stock
Beautiful! That looks like a capercaillie carved behind the inlay.
SRH
Thanks. It's a wonderful gun to shoot. The balance is incredible. When you bring it to shoulder it's as if it is floating there.
Quite an excellent piece. You might also try the German Gun Collecters Association to see if anyone in that group can identify...a long shot worth trying.
FWIW- the proof house was E. German, Suhl and the gun carries both 1st proof blackpowder (from 1950) and the Nitro proof mark (smokeless powder proof) used since 1945
One other question. There is a proof mark that I have not identified. It looks like a Serif font "C" or possibly a "G" with a "W" inside the Serif font character and a cross on top of the Serif font character. Does anyone know what that mark might be?
Bill:
Post an image & let's have a gander.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I'll try, but my camera may not be able to focus on it. If not I'll attempt to draw it (that should be good for a few laughs)
Worked better than I expected.
Just a guess on my part, but maybe a choked-bored barrel mark since it's on both barrels?
Witten Guss-Stahl Werk/Constanz Louis Berger trademark.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Wow. that was quick. Thanks so much. That one has had me stomped for years.
Have that penned on the back of my hand. I believe some variant survived till 1954.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
http://item.mobileweb.ebay.de/viewitem?itemId=300516811681Note mark in lower righthand corner.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
On another note. I was born in Berlin sept. '49 so the gun was proofed exactly one year later. (950) I probably look more worn than it does... <grin>
BTW--Keen eye you have to spot that mark in the L/RH corner
Am I correct that the words "EXCELSIOR NITTEN" is really "EXCELSIOR WITTEN" and is a high quality steel used in barrel making at the time?
Yes, Guß-Stahl Werk Witten had the trademark Excelsior for one of its steel recipes. Not sure just how many post WWII German sporting weapons wore the Witten Excelsior tube steel. Rumour has it that Carl Ludwig Berger conjured up a steel recipe in his basement early on, skipping at least one step in the overall process for the time and either it was named Excelsior or it lead to the Excelsior recipe.
1853/54 Berger & Co.
1873 Gründung der Gussstahl- und Waffenfabrik Witten vormals Berger & Co.
1881 (Nov.) Gründung der Firma "Gussstahl-Werk Witten" nach mehreren ergebnislosen Sanierungsversuchen der Gussstahl- und Waffenfabrik Witten (Liquidation Sept. 1881); Einstellung der Gewehrfertigung; Produktion von Schmiedestücken, Stahlgußteilen, Blechen und seit 1890 auch Geschossen
1899 Kauf der Germaniahütte bei Grevenbrück von der Firma Gabriel, Bergenthal & Co., Warstein
1907/08 Errichtung eines neuen Siemens-Martin-Stahlwerkes
1914-1918 Rüstungsproduktion
1917 Erwerb der Anlagen und Grundstücke der Wittener Glashütten-AG
1922 Gebr. Stumm GmbH erwirbt die Aktienmehrheit (bis 1926)
1923 Übernahme der 1849 errichteten Firma Gustav Brinkmann & Co., Witten
Juli 1923 - Feb. 1924 Betrieb infolge der Ruhrbesetzung stillgelegt
1926/28 Einbringung in die Vereinigte Stahlwerke AG
1930 Einbringung in die neu gegründete Ruhrstahl AG, einer Tochter der Vereinigten Stahlwerke. Zur Ruhrstahl AG gehörten ferner: Henrichshütte Hattingen der Henschel & Sohn AG, Kassel; Werke Oberkassel und Gelsenkirchen der Rheinisch-Westfälische Stahl- und Walzwerke AG, Gelsenkirchen; Annener Gussstahlwerk, Witten-Annen; Werk Brackwede der Vereinigte Press- u. Hammerwerke Dahlhausen-Bielefeld AG.
Wittener Gussstahl- und Waffenfabrik(Edelstahlwerk) vorm. Berger & Co.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=138693&page=2Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, Thank you so very much for taking the time to help me with this. I think I have all the questions answered that I have had over the years, about this gun, with the exception of ID'ing the engraver. If you're down Tuscaloosa way get in touch with me. I at least owe you dinner. Thanks again.
Bill,
I am one of the engravers mentioned who frequents this site. Until the recent past, few German engravers signed their work unless it was being done for export and a signature was requested. The German gunmakers and dealers only wanted their own name on the gun and the engravers were considered just another tradesman. There are still gunmakers in Germany and Austria who do not want the engraver to sign the work.
The pictures of your gun aren't the best for identification but from what I can see the engraving is very well done and of a high order, especially the relief sculpted gamescene (jagdszenen). The scrollwork is known here commonly as "German scroll" but is called "druck Englisch" by Suhl trained engravers.
When it comes to the identification of German engravers by looking at the work, it is very difficult because in the pre-WWII period the apprenticeship and training was so strict and ridgid that, to a large degree, the work of one master looked like that of another. Also most figures and scenes were done from well established traditional patterns.
The only person that I know who can identify the work of various German engravers is Hendrik Frühauf who lives in Breitenbach, Germany. Not only is Hendrik one of the finest engravers in Europe, he has exceptional knowledge and records of deceased German engravers. Hendrik does occasionally visit the GGCA web forum but I don't think he visits this one.
My advice is to take the best focused and detailed pictures of all engraved parts of the gun and e-mail them to Hendrik at this address: hf@gebrueder-fruehauf.de and let us know what you learn.
Regards,
Roger
Bill, I'll take you up on the breaking of bread at some point as I'd like to see the longarm in hand. Let me see if I can get Hendrik Fruehauf's attention with an email. But to my untrained eye it somewhat resembles Richard Werner who was born in Berlin in 1863 and expired in Suhl in 1940. So then I would look at just who he might have trained, which would be August Heym, August Röll and his son Paul Werner. For 1950, I still would think that the effort was sourced from some of the old talent; therefore, I would not rule out Emil Völker or his student Emil Willig. Emil Völker exhibited much of his talent on the wares of Franz Jäger. Not sure when exactly either retired but Emil had a son Claus Willig who was born in 1939, so I'm not sure he had perfected his talent by 1950. At one time he gave his email in Schweinfurt as Claus.Willig@t-online.de
I would say that more than like a brute force correlation effort may be the only choice for ID:
http://waffenmuseumsuhl.de/index.php?opt...6&Itemid=32Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Rodger and Raimey,
I have some professional quality prints of the gun that I would be more than happy to send to Mr. Fruehaul should he be willing to look at them. I would need a address though. Also, My intro letter/request would be in english if that does not cause a problem. I can not thank you both and everyone here who has responded enough for your help.
Sincerely,
Bill
Bill,
Roger is,as he said, one of the engravers I mentiomed at page 2,and his friend is the other. I believe Claus Willig is still living, I regret never having met him, in spite of visiting Recknagel in Schwienfurt many times.I believe, however,your search should be concentrated in and around Berlin.Also I believe that if the engraver is identified, it will be by the figures.Like Roger said, the training led to many similarities,but the differences in artistic talent shows up clearly in the figures.
Mike
Ford, oh the missed opportunities. Did you also pass on high tea with the Queen of England?
I would like to think that there are some initials on the reverse side of the sideplates. Also, Jim Kelley just might recognize the tap, tap, tap as he might have been in the vicinity during the time of proofing.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Hello William,
thanks for your message. This is a<really nice shotgun.
The engraving an d the stock carving its really good.
The stock carving is one of the best , what I ever see.
Sorry I don’t the name of the engravers, but I know hes work.
I think its not a engraver from Suhl, hes was from Zella -Mehlis- a another city with gun historyin the near from Suhl.
The Zella-Mehlis engravers has own style.
But we cant find information about this .
In the time from the communists we lost a lot of informations….
Sorry that I cant help you.
Greetings from Germany
hendrikFrühauf
Bill,
Here is Hendrik's address:
Kiesweg 13 • Breitenbach
D-98553 St. Kilian
I would send him an e-mail first explaining your questions. You can write to him in English.
As to Claus Willig, he is still living and doing superb work. I spoke with him last at the IWA show in Nuremberg in 2011 but I got a Christmas greeting from him last December.
Roger
I must have been writing at the same time as Bill was posting above.
Thanks for getting that address for me Rodger. I was afraid I would run into the "lost information" problem. It's not the first time that has happened. I'm not really sure where I'll try next, but I plan to continue the search. Maybe a trip to Germany.
Thanks again
Roger,
Do you happen to know if Rolf Peter is still living/working? He often came to Walter Grass's shop and his work,especially figures,was beyond reproach.
Mike
For now I have searched high and low and have not found what I was searching for on the Witten crucible steel with the quality mark Excelsior, Tiegelstahl - Qualitätsmarke Excelsior(Wittener Exzelsiorstahl). Seems Excelsiorläufe were touted as having been tested for military and sporting applications and were found superior to other crucible steel of the time. Its origins may have been much earlier but its merits were acknowledged circa 1902. Still not sure when or if the trademark was filed and am still searching for the sporting weapon with the earliest set of Witten Excelsior tubes. I'm guessing post 1893?
But most fitting for H.A. Lindner to choose such a quality steel for his sporting weapons to wear.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Roger,
Do you happen to know if Rolf Peter is still living/working? He often came to Walter Grass's shop and his work,especially figures,was beyond reproach.
Mike
Mike,
Unfortunately, I don't have any information on Rolf Peter.
Roger
I don't think I've posted this prior but this looks to be a doc from when Witten was in receivership or during liquidation. I wonder who picked up the pieces?
Gußstahl und Witten Fabrik - vormals Berger & Co. 1885 doc
to Gußstahl - Werk Witten, Witten a. d. Ruhr
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Raimey, a little off subject, but is it correct that Witten Escelsior, as well as Krupp special, refused to sell shotgun barrels in single tubes, but always sold them fitted together and finished, except for chamber and blueing? I assume that means a small gunmaker might have a set of barrels around for quite awhile before using it. Which might answer a question I've often wondered about, why the engraver we are discussing here had to return to the Russian sector and then there was to be a delay of a unknown period of time for his return with the shorter set of barrels.
Thanks
Had a D M Lefever crossbolt gun [Optimus] that had Krupp Special tubes. I doubt they were fitted and finished by anyone but Lefever .
You are probably right Daryl. It's something I seem to remember reading at some point. I think it was in a article in "American Rifleman" but can not swear to it. Raimey's post just brought it to mind so I thought I would ask.
Bill:
There was a huge fight over tariffs on rough bored tubes and sporting weapons(Schoverling, Daly & Gales interest) in the late 1800s and early 1900s, pre-WWI, centered on tubes themselves. Makers here fought to keep the tariff as low as possible on sight tubes, "gun barrels rough-bored" - The Hunter Arms Co., the Baker Gun & Forging Co., Parker Bros. Gun Co., Hopkins & Allen Arms Co., A. H. Fox Gun Co., Lefever Arms Co., H. & D. Folsom Arms Co., Ithaca Gun Co., N. R. Davis & Sons, and Harrington & Richardson Arms Co. & others I'm sure.
I believe references can be found in Nov. 30, 1895 Sporting Life
"All gun barrels, whether imported direct from the makers in Belgium, or through an importer in this country(U.S. of A.) to the gun manufacturer, are received in rough tubes, which very much resemble a couple of gas pipes, but being somewhat larger at one end than at the other. These barrels or "tubes" as they are called, are merely tied together in pairs, with small wire and 40 to 50 pairs are packed in a box."
I have a sneaking suspicion Krupp & Sauer teamed up and had the bulk of the Krupp lot that was used by American makers rolled in/near Liege. One of the makers had an exclusive Krupp right. I've read an account or 2 that Krupp tubes upon arrival in the U.S. of A. had the logo of a soldier on them. One exception would have been the Krupp 3 Ringe Special Weapons Grade steel which I'm sure like Whitworth & others had a certificate that accompanied it.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
It took me quite awhile to find where I had read about the barrel steel, but FWIW the link follows. The page # is 25 and the title is "More about Gun Barrel Steel" by Fred Adolph
http://books.google.com/books?id=EpcwAQA...eel&f=false
I'd take most of what he pens with a large grain of iodized salt. Anyway I believe the phrase from an article on Ithaca's importation of tubes read something like the following:
"the Krupp Essen fluid steel barrels with their stamped trademark showing little soldier holding a gun"
From what I can glean, the certificate that accompanied the Whitworth & Sauer Spezial Weapons Grade Steel was a document that guaranteed that at any point if a failure occurred, the manufacture was bound to replace them.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
I usually stick to large blocks of salt, which is why I asked the experts in here. <grin>
Bill:
Maybe I shouldn't be so harsh on brother Adolph as he does provide some nuggets but I believe that his adverts for his wares are quite deceiving on the actual amount of effort he contributed, but then again that was typical of almost all firearms merchants. His article from 1915 and in particular the reason for the tubes to be delivered in tandem, is quite possibly accurate along with his percentages. Anticorro, Antinite, Krupp Special Weapons Grade, Witten & Excelsior are some of the upper rung tube steel types and I'm sure we could add Whitworth and a couple of the Liege steel types.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
Harsh is just fine. I know so little compared to most here. I'm always reading and researching this thing and every now and then a tidbit sticks and comes into play at a later time. I just appreciate that you and others are so willing to help. Thanks again!
I thought I had a Ruhrstahl posted here?
In 1965 after Gußstahlwerke Witten got its name back it changed to Edelstahlwerke Witten
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
