In art, the unsigned work is just sofa art, can the same be said with the starving artist of the gun trade?

Your observation is wrong, but were it accurate, the answer to your question is no.

I have seen a number of totally unnamed German "guild" guns of excellent style and workmanship, many better, in fact, than factory high grade Sauers and/or Merkels. They seem to be being appreciated for what they are now more than in the past, with their pricing reflecting that. There are those unlearned dealers (or maybe unscrupulous) around who actually try to capitalize on the marketability of the "German Guild" name by claiming lower end named guns by relatively unknown gunsmiths as "guild" guns, when in fact they are not. Some of the German guild guns are of very fine quality indeed. I seem to remember one in particular owned by Doug Mann that is an exceptional piece.

This is no observation, it is the way it is!
It is the difference of a fine gun auction house, and a starving artist sales at the Holiday Inn.

I've never saw a very high quality un-marked gun or guild gun. I do think beauty is in the eye of the beholder, being able to spot quality comes with time...in the end one mans treasure is another mans trash.

Lowell, I actively buy art and have for a long time. I also consider a fine shotgun art of the highest form. I will offer that there are indeed some fine art pieces which are unsigned. In fact, in Rembrant's era, oil painter seldom signed their pieces. You are correct that a painting which is unattributed is not very valuable. But, it is certainly more than "sofa art." And, you can't shoot a painting. Jake

There is no guild or no-name guns in nature. Every gun been made by people. Every letter(s) besides proof marks means something. I remember there was exellent SLE 24G with name of one Belgium trade house name on it, but when we checked it by trade house s/n the gun turned to be made by Lebeau-Courally especially for this T-H.

Some of the most gifted American custom rifle makers never signed their work. Their work which is never signed is highly prized (expensive) as the work of makers who did the same level of work but signed theirs. The only difference is, the novice (such as yourself) does not recognize these for what they are.

The level of workmanship and artistic merit will determine the value of both rifles and shotguns regardless of the time period or country it was made in. If you are unable to recognize either it is best to stay with “Named” makers.

LG:

Yours is an uneducated analogy ....... A great many famous artists left their work unsigned. The work sells for millions and is treasured by museums and collectors. The work is recognized by it's quality and style and even when it is only attributed to the artist can sell for amounts that exceed the value of the Holiday Inn where you saw the sofa paintings. Although the value of craft is influenced by the intangibles added by marketing, brand, etc.. In the end, quality, rarity, functionality and beauty reward the knowledgeable buyer. Unfortunately a lot of paintings are made for the Holiday Inn trade ....... luckily this is not true in the gun trade.

Bouvier

Michael, it must be cozy for you to sit around and think you've found the prizes that most have pasted over.
...but so you say!
...and not easy to prove eh!
You can add titles, and fairytales to your guns/rifles - bet the dogs don't mind hearing them one more time.
When you start out with a blank page, the sky is the limit.

I usually try not to respond to you L, because I don't care to be baited. I am going to assume this time you are ignorant and iritating as opposed to merely iritating. I will readily admit some names are well respected and those makers generate a premium. However, in the world of pre-war continental guns, I am comfortable letting the weapon speak for itself, and then worry about whether or not it has a maker's, or is often the case on the continent, a seller's name. I have an unattributed double rifle drilling which is twice the weapon of the Sauer residing next to it in the gun safe. I would price them that way as well should I ever sell them. An unattributed Belgian clunker is just that. An unattributed Prussian masterpiece will speak for itself. I commend both art and weapons to you as subjects worthy of study.

Must bug you to no end then, and something to be anxious over.
You and I both know, you'd be happier if that "twice the weapon," had a name, history and so on.
It'd bug me too!

lol...I think Lowell feels guild'd. It's lonely in the Beezley club.

These exclusive clubs are the best j0ey.

Looks like you made it to the 'tWo eYe' club.

LG - I would disagree with your premise and direct you to the American Longrifle, long considered one of the best reflections of early American folk art. Many are unsigned, but each may be associated by the style of carving, architecture, and furniture with various regional "schools". From there some rifles may be identified with an individual with known and signed examples. The signed ones go for big bucks, but the unsigned ones aren't too shabby either as attention grabbers. Like everything, some were better than others. Know what makes a firearm great and the poor ones stand out like sore thumbs.

The keen educated eye, is the gun dealers' best friend!
Soon after, we'll watch for the topic, "What's this beauty worth."

Didn't you mean the keen un-educated eYe is the gun dealers' best friend.

No j0e, I've meant what I've said.
Its that slick gun buyer who can pick-out that gem in the cut-out section.
Most of these guns are in the range of a grand or less.
Someone show me a photo of their 10k no-namer!
...and I'll show you a guy hooked on sleep aids, and something for his tummy!

Most of those guys are gun dealers.

Could be, and can hear his rap now!
"Just look at those innards, they stand on their own, no matter if the craftsman has been lost in the maze of time."
"Why, its just as good as errrrrrrrrrr a Henry Atkin - yep it is"!
Well then, gimme two of 'em, says our slick buyer!

As someone who makes his living as a painter, the only paintings I don't sign are the ones I'm not happy with. I will generally destroy a painting I'm not happy with, although my standards are higher now than when I started out. If I am truly proud of my creation, you can be sure I will sign it. It's human nature. If someone goes to the effort of making a truly high quality gun, I see no reason why it would be unattributed, unless it was a guild policy not to do so, or the maker wasn't as enamored of it as we might be.

Similarly, I would doubt the paintings Rembrandt left unsigned were ones he thought that highly of either. Given that, a napkin with his signature on it would sell for outrageous $ now, simply because of his name.

While in the shop of the esteemed mR. Xed chsles a couple of months ago, I came across a plain but well made and wondeful handling little no-name Belgian boxlock ejector.
Thinking that at last, I had found a good gun that fit that I could possibly afford, I learned to my horror, that I was not the only one to know it was a good gun.
I couldn't have paid more than half of the best offer he'd had on it and there it remained. There's a lesson in that Lowell, from a man who has had more than a few Best Guns pass over his workbench.

"And there it remained."
Not sold, but kept by Mr. "T", adder?
So anyhow!
I somehow get a little suspicious when the keen eyes find all these no-name wonders. Why its almost like the rest of us are babes in the back of the turnip truck.
The real cut to the chase is, that these guns are priced where most can take a chance, if they're into such things.
No harm, nor foul if they're out a grand or less.
Its the real deal, if they're out 10K for the almost as good as gun.

Maybe he'll post some pictures I'd love to see it.

Lowell, he kept it and said it was his "Loaner gun".
He said that he was offered $4000 for it.
Obviously, he wasn't trying to unload it.

Everyone needs a good loaner, but I don't know if that means much.
When my Dan'l Fraser ran out of cartridges(one in the rifle, and four in my pocket is all I had that day), a gent who I was shooting crows with, offered-up his back-up SKS.
I passed on that idea!

Per LG's original hypothesis, no, absolutely not. But the name, or lack there of, does impact market price. When working on the influence of brand name value in the Brit/Continental gun trades, I identified five factors that seem to strongly influence brand value: social acceptance/patronage, total production, % of high original quality production, firm longivity, and firm creativity. Since all makers, with the possible exception of Boss, made/sold a range of guns of differing original quality under their brand, it is necessary to identify the original quality grade of the gun, along with the current condition, to determine the market value.

"Did Mortimer Snerd make good guns?" is a typical question indicative of over reliance on the brand name. So, if there is no brand name how do you value the gun? Unknowns/no-namers fit to Brand Value level five (BV5). That means that original quality and current condition being equal, they are worth 1/8 of a BV1 (A pristine Purdey best SLE is about $40,000 and a pristine best SLE with no name is worth about $5,000). That said, one still has to develop the skill and knowledge to identify OQ grades and CC levels. So, IMO, there are gems out there for the knowledgable and/or the lucky.

How knowledgable and lucky can you be if you buy that pristine beats the hell outta me gem that is only worth 1/8 of one of the world's greatest guns.
You'd think the knowledgable/lucky should beat those odds!

LG - I don't believe that current used market price alone is an accurate reflection of Original Quality grade. Brand name has an 8 fold influence on price and Original Quality grade and Current Condition each has a 20 fold influence. Therefore, the price envelope from pristine best SLE by a BV1 maker to a wall hanger colonial/farmer grade BLNE with no name on it is 3200X. I don't "disagree" with market prices - it just is what it is. So, high quality can be had at relativly modest price - if you look for it independently of the name on the gun.

The burden of proof that goes along with these guns, seems to be to high for all the work in finding 'em. Not every gun in one's cabinet is a go to gun for the field - some are just to have - this is where the doubt sets in.

I still say you have it backwards...the keen un-educated eye is the gun dealers best friend.
The sharp dealer can convince the un-educated eye of those beautiful inards...and then tell the them "what the beauty is worth".

Hj - I don't disagree with you on :sharp" dealer's sales pitch. However, there are non-dealer guys out there who can easily form a valid opinion of the OQ of a gun, name or not. Not all big name guns are gems and not all no-namers are lumps of coal.

In the time of the German village gunmaker, everyone who could afford a gun (everyone wanted a gun) went to the village maker. Everyone knew who made everyone elses' gun - the village maker. It would, therefore, have been rude for the maker to have put his name on it. From the current USA viewpoint, that may not compute, but there have been other view points on guns than curent USA.

I realize the Germans had to have built a 'few' nice SxS shotguns....
I got my first Mauser 7x57 when I was 13 years old, a long time ago. Allot of guns have passed before my eyes since then.
When I think German guns I think about rifles and drillings not SxS's.

I'm having trouble seeing how a German village gunmaker putting his name on a gun would 'compute' to being rude, I'm all ears.

Are those German village makers the same guys that put British names on their clunker shotguns ?

I guess they didn't think it 'rude' to try and fool the world.

HJ - The German village makers built a lot of very nice guns in many different patterns, as did the German factory makers. I'm not aware of any German built clunkers, especially with Brit names on them. Belgian, yes. German, no.

As I said, the concept of the maker putting his name on the object is deeply ingrained in our USA view point. For the German village (think extended tribe), this is somewhat akin to saying to others, "You are too stupid to know where guns come from." Of course they knew the gun came from the village maker! I doubt that your mama signed every loaf of bread, cake and pie she made. She didn't need to because you knew where they came from.

Lord Lowell -
When the "Greatest Generation" cleaned out the dank back rooms in the pockmarked gingerbread Bavarian towns, the cream of the 'Guildies' came home in duffles, not oak & leather. Looking for "J.D. Bock nach Wien" and his ilk sharing the rib inscriptions can only be located by reviewing the "Mighty Eighth's" target rosters. Most of the tidy little shops collapsed into the craters of the 500-pounders as Adolf did his firedance. What care we of this legacy? Is out time not much better spent ferreting out the Kornbrath-engraved DHEs (how many did he do?) or fawning over the chemical analysis of the ink that Blessed Wilbur signed the letter with when he sloughed Nikki's A-1 Special to a local to finance the Meriden tinkerers for another year. In as sense, all 'Guildies", for sure. KBM

j0e, its the gun guy who thinks he knows it all - he's easy prey for the dealer! They play him with an all-knowning pat on his back, and a big boy howdy.
The semi-knowledgable gun guy will ask all the questions.
We all know one or two self-professed gun pros.