I decided to write this article on Webley & Scott 700 because over the years the companies efforts have some how been overlooked in one way or another. And more importantly it was in its day the only British shotgun manufacturer that the average shooting man could afford to purchase a new gun from that was truly built here in England. Yes we do still make high end shotguns in England but they are only for the wealthy and well beyond the purchase capabilities of the average working family man. I will agree with any person that says the 700 is not eye catching when it comes to engraving or the wood. All I can say to that is “you don’t shoot the engraving or it’s Wood” though you shoot the gun and as a whole it does that extremely reliably time after time.

The Webley & Scott 700 legacy

Is it me??? Or do we British seem to be extremely complacent when one of our long established manufactures ceases to trade and parts of the company are sold off to the highest bidder. Webley & Scott was one of the most prolific gunmakers Britain has ever seen being the only maker in reality to warrant the use of six figure gun serial numbers, after all it had been in business since William Davis founded his business at the Weaman Street Birmingham in 1790. Though now it is only one of many world renowned English companies that include Rolls Royce and Bentley cars, Marconi, GEC, and Wilkinson Sword being only a few names that over the last four decades have unfortunately been broken up this way. So before things become changed adjusted forgotten caused by the passage of time.



Webley & Scott 700 action clearly showing the absence of a cross pin

I would like to say why in my personal opinion Webley & Scott 700 series side by side boxlock shotguns, once described has having “Plain Jane looks” does deserve a much closer look. Even though its manufacture ceased here in 1979 after some 26000 to 28000 where built with the Lion’s share of this output still alive and shooting today. This averages out to around 800 to a 1000 guns manufactured a year and for a company that produced arms on a very large scale this is an exceedingly low production number indeed. And as usual we British do not seem to appreciate what assets these guns really are, probably because we can’t or don’t want to look past the name Webley & Scott that prolific manufacturer of military pistols, air weapons, Humane Killers, and harpoon guns to name but a few of its products. Rather than seeing what actually went in to the manufacture of these particular guns, which in reality was accomplished mostly by craftsmen and as far away from today’s slick high volume close tolerance CNC and Laser produced sporting guns of today as you could possibly get, and I do wish those words “Oh it’s only a Webley” would slip out of use especially when used in connection with the 700 series guns.


Trade label used until 1958

Webley & Scott started to manufacture the model 700 around 1947 at a time when Britain was starting to recover after the Second World War with the initial guns being made as 12 and 16 bore Boxlocks. Because of dealer pressure especially from the US 20 and 28 bores where introduced in the 1960’s though all the guns made before the introduction of the 701 & 702s, where made as grade 3 the 701 & 702 models where introduced in the early 1950’s having higher quality wood and a little more elaborate engraving.
In the beginning the Webley 700 was designed and built to meet a growing home market demand for a sound well made no frills workhorse that in the previous century would have been described as a keepers gun, referring to the fact that a game keepers gun was a heavily used work tool out in all weathers treated fairly harshly and would still keep working with the minimum level of servicing if it had any at all, and in that sense I feel Webley did manage to get the design and manufacturing right whether by intention or just old fashioned good luck.




Action cocking leavers and ejector claws

The gun is based on the famous Anson & Deeley boxlock system with automatic safety, and Southgate cartridge ejector system. Both systems are considered exceedingly rugged and reliable though Webley did add a number of their own modifications with two very noticeable deviations that can be seen at a glance. The cocking leavers have extensions that activate the ejector kicker after the appropriate barrel has been fired, and the cross pin which is integral with the action casting and therefore not removable. Nearly all the 700s manufactured where of the double trigger design though there where some single trigger versions built. Another not so obvious modification is that the top leaver is fitted into a part called a screw grip that can be seen surrounding the leaver boss and screw. This also moves when the lever is operated and is used to support the spindle that operates the action bolt when it locks and unlocks the barrels, all powered by a V spring. The strikers are not disk set but are integral with each of the hammers and in its turn each hammer is driven by its own V spring.



Opening leaver and ‘Screw grip’

The gun’s design does follow the lines of a classic British boxlock game gun with an oiled straight hand stock whose dimensions are fairly standard with drops of 1½ inches at the comb 2¼ inch at the heel, with a cast off or on around 3/16 inch with its length of pull around 14½ inches. Also there is a less common stock variant, a well proportioned half pistol grip sometimes described as semi pistol grip. All the 700s where fitted with a splinter forend which contains the cartridge ejector mechanism, and the Anson push rod forend release mechanism which incidentally contains the only coil spring in the guns construction. The wood is finished with what some would say rather coarse flat top English chequering, though it does provide an excellent area of grip for cold wet hands. The stock is secured to the action by a screw travelling vertically from the trigger plate to the rear of the action top strap with further anchoring assistance given by the trigger guard retaining screws. Thankfully the action is not secured with a bolt travelling the full length of the stock which does tend to make the hand section so wide, it some how removes that pleasing line of a well proportioned and slim gun stock. Sadly this now brings me to the Walnut used which is extremely plain indeed, to be brutally frank I have seen finer figured wood used in fruit packing boxes, though in webley’s defence can I say this gun was conceived and manufactured as an affordable double gun which it certainly was at the time! From a 1969 Parker-Hale gun catalogue the retail prices for the 700 series where 12 and 16ga £114 with the 20ga slightly more expensive at £128.
This brings me to the strongly made well blued barrels which are of the standard chopper lump design, so they do not have those mono block joint lines that I do believe prevent barrels having that smooth unbroken visual appearance unless welded. Initially barrel lengths available where to be 28 and 26 inch though this stipulation did not last to long for today you will find barrels of every length from 25 to 30 inches, though the majority of barrels do seem to have the smooth style concave game top rib, though I have seen Churchill type top ribs fitted to an occasional gun. Initially the 12 bore barrels had 2 ½ inch chambers but pressure again from the American distributers their size was increased to 2 ¾ inch to accommodate the heavier loads more popular in the US. Barrel chokes are fixed and originally supplied as Left ¾ and Right ¼ but then a change of heart and choking started to be bored to individual requirements when the gun was initially ordered. The weight of the ever popular 12 bore was less than 7 pounds typically 6 ½ though this is very much dependent on barrel length.
Now there are some negative aspects to the gun though these are not great in number. The gun is not assisted opening so if you fire both barrels on opening the gun your efforts will be used for re resetting the hammers, and on closing the ejectors, therefore some extra effort is required.



Early 2 ½ inch Chambered 700 Birmingham Proof Marks

The cross pin being an integral part of the action casting is non removable so makes repair a little more complicated with replacement not an option when the joint eventually loosens to the point where the barrels are off the action face. The only way to rectify the problem is to work on the barrel side of the joint though with the introduction of TIG welding to the gunsmiths armoury this repair has become very much less of a problem, though I must say my own two well used 700 examples are still on the face and close up like well fitting bank vault doors after some fifty years of regular service.


The more usual 2 ¾ inch chambered 700 Birmingham Proof Marks

There are no off the shelf spares available so all replacement’s have to be made and then fitted, this is only to be expected because each gun was initially built by individual craftsmen, and made entirely of parts produced at the Webley & Scott factory and not bought in from the four corners of the planet. So a competent gunsmith should be able to affect the repairs necessary to keep the gun in a sound working condition.
The stock on the earlier of my two has been refinished owing to the fact that the finish applied by Webley to the very early guns I presume was just Linseed Oil and precious little else, so over the intervening fifty years it became darker and darker to the point where the stock took on a definite black appearance. Though as the guns became more popular the Webley finish and wood did improve somewhat as you can see the semi pistol grip version has a little more colour in the wood due to the use of that ever popular ‘red oil’ in finishing. So when I had the black looking stock refinished no improvement was made to its colour as I felt it should look the same as it did when it first left the factory.
The forend wood is fitted to the Iron by a small machine screw which also holds the forend metal nose piece, with a single large wood screw in the centre that if this becomes loose it can cause the wood of the forend to split its full length. This is commonly overcome by removing this screw altogether and fitting a metal diamond let in to the bottom face of the forend wood and using a machine screw to secure the wood to the Iron, and in doing so this does give the forend a more traditional appearance.



Forend showing ejector and cocking leaver points
The barrels are definitely not suitable for steel shot but that said a lot of other maker’s guns are not suitable for steel either. While on the subject of other makers Webley’s Plain Jane can be found sporting such illustrious maker’s names as Holland & Holland, Westley Richards, William Evans, though displaying a more lavishly engraved action coupled with up market walnut. And not only that I have lost count of the various dealers names I seen engraved on these guns over the years, it was at one time possible to purchase a completed proofed action and barrels in the white. I have seen three guns carrying their owner’s names which where purchased in the white from Webley & Scott then finished to their owner’s specification by other gun trade craftsmen; I am sure my own semi pistol grip 1½ with the polished action started out this way. Though the most memorable of all the names on a 700 I have seen was “A.N. Other” some owner with a mischievous sense of humour for sure.
Now some food for thought! The records show that there was one double .410 made in 1967 but knowing Webley records there may be more! Now that would be a find and a half if it did happen to travel your way, you could be the luckiest .410 owner on the planet.
How about a leap of faith! At today’s prices it is possible to buy two second user identical specification 700 12 bores in good condition for an extremely fair price if you are prepared to shop around. Then may be spend a little more to re-instate the colour hardening and a barrel re-blue also not forgetting to have the guns engraved respectively 1 and 2 to finish your project. And what you would have for your outlay would be a composed pair at a price far below what you would realistically have to pay today for a pair of English guns, and these are as English as Earl Grey Tea! Fish and Chips! And Charles Dickens! On the other hand you could just leave them as they are and plan each gun’s restoration over the coming years secure in the knowledge that the value of your purchase will increase.
If you can beg steel or borrow as the saying goes one of these “Plain Jane’s” just to see what this not so pricey English gun really feels like to use, you never know you just might suit each other if an English made gun is really what you want of course.



My two “Plain Jane’s” still working well after some 60 plus years

I do want to make it very clear it is the original 700 series side by side built entirely at the Webley & Scott Factory Birmingham England with production ceasing in 1979, and not the side by side we see on sale today under the Webley & Scott name manufactured in Turkey! The real 700 series are a finite resource with the prices creeping inexorably higher year on year though good examples are still available here in England at a reasonable price. Though in common with all older guns each should be judged on its merits paying very close attention to its over all condition, but those lucky people who already own one I am sure they would be very reluctant to part with it. That sentiment also goes for me and my two examples though they are not a composed pair, they are now with me for the long haul in fact it will be the death us do part thing!


Semi pistol grip 700 “one and a half” with a polished action

This “one and a half” with the polished action was put together around 1952 dating it by the serial number on the second barrel set which is two years after the guns initial build date, the extra barrel fitting work I am sure was undertaken by T.W.C. & Co which is engraved on the barrel lump, which makes me think they may have also retailed the gun. With having two barrel sets and 2¾ inch chambers plus a choice of chokes this is a useful gun for all seasons here in England, and to be expected of course there is a trade off regarding the guns balance, which is brought to an equitable compromise by the fitting of a Lead weight under the heal plate. The choking for the 29 inch barrel set is ¼ left and improved cylinder right and for the 27 ½ inch barrel set ¾ left and ½ right. The more traditional style 700 in the picture with the English straight hand stock was built in 1949 having 2½ inch chambers 28inch barrels choked left ¾ right ¼ and was probably a gun from one of the very first batches offered for sale by Webley & Scott. Its balance and overall fit is exceedingly good and being a little less weighty than its companion at 6½ pounds very useful in the field for fast birds when using a 1oz English No 6 shot load, it is also light enough to be carried all day without taking too much of a toll on your stamina. Those amongst you with Eagle eyes will have noticed the small differences in the engraving layout between the guns. Engraving style differed between individual engravers output on the day, though there is not a lot of engraving on each gun any way. I do hope after reading this you do come across one of these “plain Jane’s” in a retailers gun rack, and if you do please remember to give this now mature English Lady a second glance you never know it may turn in to love at the first shot.

Damascus

Very nice and well done tribute Damascus.

Excellent, very well done. Bravo.

My favorite "go to" gun is a 700 with 26" barrels, straight grip, and double triggers. Dating to the early 50's it weighs in at 6 lbs 1 oz and is a real delight to carry all day. Plain, yes, but I don't have to worry about every scratch or rain drop. It's a real workhorse that has never let me down.

Couple of issues, barrels are not chopper lump but dovetail lump. The action body is not a casting but a forging. Other than that I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments! Unfortunately by the late 70s the 700 cost 3X the price of a comparable AyA Yeoman.

Damascus, thank you for your effort and point of view. I have a 26" 12 bore from the '50s on my wall,,,,,,,it will be one of the last to go.

Damascus,

Very well done & interesting post. I have a 700 & a 701(both 12 bores). Excellent guns for the money & very good guns on their own w/o price consideration.

A couple of comments: They don't all have plain wood. My 700 has a very nice looking example a of properly laid out 1/4 sawn English grip stock with fiddleback figure on both sides & the 701 has very nice wood also as would be expected. I do agree that many 700's do have solid but unattractive wood with the 702's & 701's having progressively better wood. Both of my guns were made for export so possibly the importer played a role in wood selection.

Also, re. ribs. In addition to the concave smooth game type rib & the Churchill style rib, a raised level file cut pigeon style rib was offered. My 26" barreled 700 has this style of rib & I have seen others.

Thanks,great info. Bobby

Hugh, I wouldn't call the AyA Yeoman 'comparable' to the 700. The Webley was far superior in every way. The AyA Model 4 was based very much on the 700 but still not up to the Webley standard.

Interesting article. If you ever go to the Birmingham Proof House museum they have a full set of the castings for the 700 to show the manufacturing process. I have a 28" 700 12 bore that sees a lot of use on wood pigeon. Lagopus.....

Webley's had there problems in later years .The company changed hands several times ,lack of investment,rising costs, output was falling and prices increased. As a result guns produced in the 70's were not as good as they could have been . That said guns made for America in 20 and 28 bores [720 & 728] were some of the best finished guns they had made for some time .Over all the old 700 was good value for money and many have stood the test of time with honour . Nice to see there are those of you who share that opinion .
Personally I have soft spot for them and last year traveling to Birmingham for the funeral of an old colleague and ex Webley worker ,I drove past the Park lane factory which apart form the sign had not changed since the last time I drove out of the gates in 1977.

Good guns for a good price and very much underappreciated. Great post!

Very nice piece. Prices for 12's here in the States are quite reasonable as well, as Brit guns go. One I probably should not have let go was a 720, which is actually a 702 in 20ga made for the American market. Lovely gun, although I wish it had had 28" vs 26" barrels.

In addition to the comment Hugh made about the barrels, I don't believe the 700's are screw grip actions either. I believe the screw grip requires a 3rd fastener--rib extension of some sort--which the 700 does not have.

I was very lucky a few year back to get a 1964, NIB M700 that actually has some figure to the wood. I haven't shot it yet because a couple years back I got a nice 1955 gun in as new condition, from a member here, one with the POW grip. That one's also a 30" gun and weighs in at about 6-9 but is well balanced. I shoot it very well.

Great write up damascus, thanks for taking the time.

I have what I believe is a 701 as it has good figure in the stock w/ drop points.The barrels are,uncut,27"s w/a tight Ic & mod.The barrel marks are NB which puts it at 1962/serial #1323XX= 1961.The rib is marked "Carlton Model" Russell Hillsdon,Chichester.It is a 2 3/4",3 1/4 ton gun w/ejectors & auto safety,straight grip.The wt is 6lb 10 oz.This is the 3 rd 700 series gun I have owned and all have given me good service.I would like more information on the "Carlton Model" reference.I'm unable to post pictures.

I'm not sure what model my W&S is but it looks to me like a 700 with upgraded engraving and wood. Maybe Dustin remembers.

1923 Proprietary Grade 1 hammerless "screw grip". The nicest W&S boxlock I've ever seen or owned. I miss that gun Bob. :-(

It has a nice home I'm taking good care of it for you Dustin.

That one's way nicer than a 700--or even a 701, which was the highest grade of that series. Significantly more engraving.

Pictures uploaded for Doublefan.

Thanks Builder! Perhaps they wanted to go out with a bang but this one seems to have a better grade of wood. Wonderfull shotguns and use mine for skeet and grouse hunting here in N. Wisconsin. 26 inch barrels( Which I love and slowly working on Builder to come over to the dark side!LOL) 6lbs. 1 oz. Skeet 1 and Skeet 2. Thanks for the GREAT thread! Bob

My 6 lb 1 oz 700 doing what it was made for. Along the Snake River in Idaho. No place for sissy guns!

Could also be a 702. They had drop points. How did the Brits ever manage to come up with that numbering sequence: 700=basic gun; 702=next grade up; 701=highest grade?

The 701 has almost full coverage of very decent scroll engraving, "Safe" marked in gold + the "Spaniels Ears" where the forend wood meets the FE iron & the top lever filed up like the Proprietary Grade I shown on this thread does.

Spaniel's Ears? I've often wondered what that extra effort was called on a forend. Thank you for that insight.

Thanks for the informative post, Damascus. The TWC & Co who fitted your extra barrels would probably have been Tom Chambers of TW Chambers & Co. In the early 50's he had premises in the same building as Bonehills and did work for them, Fords etc etc, as well as on his own account.

I must learn how to post photos. I bought one of the 728s from Bill Jaques in 1980. It was the first gun I had ever purchased by mail. He said it had the nicest wood on it of any he had seen. It has an incredible piece of wood that I wish I could share. The only draw back is the 25" barrels but I killed 100s of doves before I read that longer barrels were better. Since acquired a Ruger Red label and a Parker repo with 28" barrels. I need to go back to shooting the Webley and try to forget what I have read.

Greetings,

Excellent thread and history! I've been looking for some info on these side by sides for a while now and have been coming up kind of short. I've tried contacting Webley & Scott in the UK, however it seems that the current company doesn't keep the the original records from when the factory shut down in the late 70s.

I belive I own a model 700 (not 100% sure) and I'm looking to possibly date the year it was manufactured. The serial number is 145871. Any info would be very much appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

Spoe

Hi Spoe.
Your gun looks like a 700 and with a serial number starting 145XXX my list of numbers puts the date of manufacture as 1976.

Damascus

If you look on the barrel flats you will see a date stamp .It will consist of a circle wtih two letters and a number .The letters are the date code the number is the veiwers id .

According to the Scott book by Crawford and Whatley: "Approximately 85,000 double guns, of which the Model 700 series accounted for one third, were produced by Webley & Scott from 1897 to 1979." That's close to 30,000 700 series guns. A particularly impressive total when you consider that they were all post-WWII production, when the British gun trade was in much worse shape than it had been prior to the war.

Not sure, but I don't believe the 85,000 figure includes guns made for other firms. They must have made a few thousand for Army & Navy alone.

Gunman, would you please explain the coding?

Thank you!

Your gun is a 700 . As to proof dates .Prior to 1975 the date stamp was crossed pikes with the code letters AB=1950 to ZB=1974 .1975 to 1984 a circle with letters AB=1975 to KB=1984 .Webleys were numbered at jointing stage and would have been proofed within a couple of weeks of this . The barreled action may have stood for a while prior to finishing or the finished gun been held in the warehouse befor sale to a shop and subsequent customer as a new gun . It is therefore possible that a gun with a eg. 1975 proof date may not have actually been sold until 1978 .

Please see my PM

I understood that the sequence was 700, 701, 702 with an increase in the quality of finish and engraving at each step up.

However I may be wrong.

Regards,

Redgrouse.

Hi Redgrouse

That was the theory 700 was the basic and as the number increased the better quality the wood and engraving. But as in life there are exceptions because I have seem some wonderful wood on 700s and others with far more engraving than the normal.

hello all,
whilst this is a welcome and interesting thread there are factual inaccuracies in the opening post re the spec of the 700 series.( these errors have been mentioned by others but have not been picked up on or corrected).
the 700,701 nor 702 have neither chopper lump barrels nor a screw grip action.
cheers mrwmartin

redgrouse.. i realise the confusion and difficulties re 700 series spec but all the literature and catalogues i have re webley has the 701 as the top spec(and price) of the series.
cheers mrwmartin

Hi all.

I think it is time for me to put this “screw grip” thing to bed. Firstly I said that: Another not so obvious modification is that the top leaver is fitted into a part called a screw grip that can be seen surrounding the leaver boss and screw. This also moves when the lever is operated and is used to support the spindle that operates the action bolt when it locks and unlocks the barrels, all powered by a V spring. It does not say or even suggest it is a screw grip action does it, it is a description of the part surrounding the leaver and if W&S wanted to call it that who am I to argue. The barrels mistake I accept because we are not all perfect are we.But please read what I write and not what you think I have written.
And thank you all for all your contributions to my posting so far because I am so taken back by how the guns are appreciated in your country.
Damascus

hello damascus,
apologies if you are offended by my comments i am trying to be helpful.however, the webley 700 does not have a screwgrip.you are describing the webley horseshoe top LEVER.
i am a great fan of webleys and am actualy trying to source a good 700 at the moment.
best wishes
mrwmartin

Sequence of grades 700[basic] 702[middle] 701[best] .
There were also the 720 and 728 these were a 702 grade gun in 20 and 28 bore for the American market . Different customers ordered gun with variants to the basic grade such as 700 with 702 wood , scolaped or scroll back actions ,rounded bodys or differing engraving styles as with barrel lengths and rib type .For instance a 702 with full pistol grip semi beavertail forend and 30" barrels with raised flat rib and blacked action that went to New Zealand .
May I also put to bed the argument about the " screw grip " . Webley's referred to it as a grip nut and although it no longer served a functional purpose was still fitted . It was considered an unnecessary cost to re design and re tool to do away with it altogether.

Gunman,

Thank you for your clarification on both the screw grip nut & the grading system.

The grading system has been discussed on this forum before & people still seem to confuse the grades. I often see 702 guns advertised for sale as 701 guns. The real 701 doesn't show up here for sale very often & I doubt many were sold because of price. A real shame as they are nice looking & well made guns of good materials.

FYI from the 1972 Gun Digest (the last year the 701 was listed in GD) retail pricing in US $ was: 700 @ $375, 702 @ $550 & 701 @ $750.

Per the Scott book, by 1979 prices (in pounds) had increased to:
700--919; 702--1619; 701--2359.

More to the point, a 1970s Model 700 cost as much as a new Mini!

A 700 was my first gun. I still have it. Excellent guns still.

In regard to the earlier post about the Army & Navy connection my A & N .16 bore has "W&S steel" stamped on the left tube where it turns into the flat.The A&N records show it was sold to a Mr.R.J.G.B. Howard for 21 lbs in 1904.Any know what the pound was in 1904.

In 1904 the exchange rate was $4.87 to £1.00

A 1904 dollar has inflated to $25.64 in 2012 dollars.

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview/id/739443.html

Thanks mate, for the fine article about my favourite bird gun! While I used to own a number of fine sidelock & box lock guns, I sold all of them except one - my beloved Webley & Scott 700 (built in 1968). It weighs 6-1/2 lbs. and according to Dale Tate (Purdeys) it fits me wonderfully. I shoot it better than any gun I've owned, and it is a perfect delight to carry in the mountains here in Utah where I now live. October last, I shot my first brace of ruffed grouse - a right & left double over my Llewellin setter's point. Paul Hodgins (Holland's) set-up shop in Utah, and he keeps my 700 in perfect working order. He had to replace a few pins, and his friend, W&S engraver Ron Collings (who lives in California) engraved them just like the originals. Paul repaired a crack in the forend too, otherwise annual maintenance is minimal and my gun purrs on both game and clays. My Webley and I are in it 'till death do us part!

Arvey McFarland
Salt Lake City via Crianlarich, Perthshire

I was surprised that my effort on Webley & Scott is still of some interest even though it was posted early this year. Now I am the first to admit that my efforts with a camera do leave a lot to be desired so I did not post all the pictures for the post because I felt that they where not all they should be. So to bring things together a little better I am posting the not so good missing pictures that should make some of the descriptions a little clearer.

The one of a kind 1967 Webley Scott is on Gun Broker now it is at 12000.00 reserve not met
Item 616101504
Location Tucker, GA 30084

Thanks for reviving this thread which is one of the finest threads to appear on this forum. Gil

Thank you for a very interesting thread.

2 soot balls

That gun has been on there for months. Asking price has been $45,000.00 which I suspect is the reserve.

Gunbrokers new format just sucks, just can't get a photo to enlarge to where it's of any use...

View image, then hit Ctr+ is about best you can do with it now. Resolution is poor.

Since the thread has been revived, this looks like a good place to ask: was the machined into the action hinge pin used in the 700 series also used in W&S guns made before WWII? Gil

Damascus,
Have you ever seen a 700 with disc set strikers? I ask because I have handled several model 500s that have that feature, and have seen two 700s that broke integral striker/tumblers at the height of pheasant season.
It is a bit of an involved repair.
My Dad's Beretta O/U broke a striker in the early 1970s, not integral with the tumbler, it was a five minute repair at the 'smiths, and a disc set striker my child could replace, with a bit of instruction.
I have always wondered why they moved away from disc set design, it seems so user friendly.


Best,
Ted

To my certain knowledge all the 700 series guns had a solid pin . This was a legacy from the prior 400/500/600 series . No 700 had disc set strikers and I do not think any post WW2 guns had in an attempt to cut costs simplify manufacture .

Ted gunman is correct and of course he was there at the factory.
From an engineering standpoint a single small hole in the breach face is far cheaper to produce than a larger threaded one in the cost of tooling alone, not to mention its matching other half. Also the 700 was designed made and sold to meet a price in its intended market so the added cost of disk set strikers would not be considered I am sure.
As for repair of a broken striker I have seen a couple of repairs on hammers. Both repairs consisted of removing the striker remnants drilling a hole in the hammer face, fitting a replacement striker having a collar which contacted the hammer face to improve mounting stability. As the striker is positioned off centre of hammer centre line positioning is critical, on both repairs it looked like the strikers where held in place with silver solder rather than brazing.

Very nice article. However, one photo refers to a "screw grip". I don't believe the Model 700 is a screw grip gun, unless maybe very early ones were made that way and the design later modified. A true screw grip (like the Models 400 and 500) requires a 3rd fastener in the form of a top rib extension that fits into a slot in the face of the standing breech. When you look into that slot, you can see the threads on the screw which the rib extension engages. My Model 400 Grade 1 is an example.
It also has disc set strikers.

700's still retained the "grip nut" but it had no real function so was obsolete but the cost of altering the design and re tooling was considered not to be worth it . Striker holes on 700's were drilled by the inside work fitter , these were marked with center punches in chamber plugs and drilled in a hand held jig on a treadle lathe .

AAAgh!!! Not again!!

L Brown. I suggest you do read the posting and the replies.
The name for the part in question was taken from a Webley & Scott parts list from the 1970s yes! They did supply some parts and castings, given to me by a local Gunsmith.
Now if you read the description of how the action opens and closes it is obviously not the description of a genuine screw grip action.
Gunman has kindly given the correct factory name for the said top leaver surround in one of his replies for which I am grateful.

Oh!!!! Please can we put this to bed because I am starting to feel that firstly I wish I had not put pen to paper as the say secondly I have the feeling this screw grip thing, which was not my naming of the part is going to follow me around every time this posting rears its head like the chains of Marley's ghost.

OT apologies. Mention of small numbers A&N made by W&S: cansay/speculate on other makers of A&N guns, please? My modest 1913 58-thou range is a well-crafted gun.

Damascus and Gunman,
Do not fret, the various names of parts are quite small details, this time around. Thank you very much for the photos, article, descriptions, and commentary, it is most welcomed here, where, they were sold, but, not built.
There really isn't anyone to cover this information, the way you have, on this side of the pond. Thanks again.
My question per the integral striker/tumblers was partly based on the fact that earlier Webley models did have disc set strikers, and I would expect the tooling and jigs would have been well sorted out by the time of the appearance of the 700, and shouldn't have added to the cost as much as starting from scratch. The striker/tumbler isn't a part that fails often, but, that fact was poor comfort for two hunter friends of mine who lost the use of their 700s for the rest of the season, and, the repair is not a trivial one, as noted.
I own a Spanish gun fitted with the disc set strikers, and, owing to the scarcity of good, qualified, double gun 'smiths in my part of the world, consider them an excellent option for a serious field gun.

Best,
Ted

Damascus, sorry I didn't wade through all the posts. From "The History of W. & C. Scott Gunmakers, by Crawford and Whatley (p.69): "Both Model 400 and 500 guns were fitted with the Webley Screw Grip, a type of rib extension patented by T.W. Webley in 1882." Most of us with some familiarity with British doubles are familiar with the screw grip. Unfortunately, it likely WILL haunt you. If someone referred to a Model 700 as a screw grip gun in Double Gun Journal, poor Dan Cote would find himself buried under a pile of letters and emails. And I know how you feel. Narrowly escaped that fate myself when I did an article for Shooting Sportsman about proof, chamber length, pressure, etc. I used the standard formula for converting a pressure measurement in bars to psi. Unfortunately, the proofmaster informed us, even though the British were by then marking proof pressure in bars, they were still working off old lead crusher pressure readings rather than piezoelectronic transducers. I think it was all an evil British plot to confuse your cousins across the Pond! Fortunately, we corrected the numbers and provided an explanation before the story ran.

KY Jon I just found it yreserday and found Damascus article was very enlightened a extreamly informative Webly & Scott information. He didmentiom this gun so I just wanted to bring it to his and DGJ attention. I think the reserve is in the high 20000.00 range

Hello All,

I found this thread during a search on the Webley and Scott Model 500. I made that search in order to find out a bit more about a gun that I have just bought online. I have yet to receive the gun which I have purchased as a “house gun” for home.

The gun was advertised as a pre-war (I am assuming WW II) Webley and Scott side by side with 30” barrels, 2 3/4 inch chambers and choked full and full. It is nitro proofed to 1 1/4oz.

It also appears to have the Webley Screw Grip with the lever and trigger guard blued.

The serial number (all matching numbers) is 121009.

Am I correct in thinking this gun might be a Model 500?

The gun has recently been test fired and certified in safe working condition by an Adelaide gunsmith. It is described by him as closing firm with no looseness. I intend to use no more that 28 gram (1 1/4oz = 35 grams) loads on snakes and rabbits around the house as well as shooting the occasional clay socially with friends. Does this sound like a sympathetic retirement for such a gun?

I wanted an original Webley and Scott for the sake of tradition and as a keepsake that is of more interest than a modern clay basher.

Can anyone give me a ore in depth understanding of what I have purchased?

Kind regards,

Rohan Williams.

[img:left]https://www.dropbox.com/s/7fcfx1329haarb1/IMG_0308%20%281%29.JPG?dl=0[/img]
[img:left]https://www.dropbox.com/s/hw4lps3x7t3j2bu/IMG_0309%20%281%29.JPG?dl=0[/img]
[img:left]https://www.dropbox.com/s/gpo6gpdy96xv3a2/IMG_0312.JPG?dl=0[/img]

From my list of gun serial numbers the run from 120000 began in 1950 and from your photograph the gun looks like a Webley & Scot 700 series with a semi pistol grip. more close up pictures could be of more help.

Damascus,

As usual, another interesting and well written article, or post, on British guns. I have been reading your posts since the days you were a member of The Internet Gun club. I miss that site.

Do you still own that hammer gun that James Mason carried in "The Shooting Party"?

Thank you - again,

Michael

Rohan, your gun is definitely the model 700, made in 1950. The model 500 is very seldom seen, few were made. It utilized the Webley screw grip third fastener and the back of the action was scalloped. It also has the medium grade of engraving, which was rather elaborate and had much fancier wood with fine checkering. And they were made before the war. I own the only one I have ever seen. It is often confused with the Model 400, which was basically the same but with a straight back action. Your gun is very good and will last several lifetimes given proper care.

1 1/4 oz. for snakes? I understand y'all got some big rabbits down under but man ...... you can kill a rattler as big as they grow with a little 1/2 oz. .410 load, most of them with a .22 magnum shot cartridge.

Welcome to the board, Rohan. My sympathies on the big snakes y'all got down theah.

SRH

Thank you so much for your replies; Damascus, Joe, and Stan. I really appreciate the input from those in the know. I’m glad that it is indeed a 700. I have only read and heard good things about that model. It’s particularly nice to have an early one in good working condition.

Stan, The only reason we use heavy loads on snakes down here is that the stakes are pretty high if you don’t kill with the first two shots!!

No, I was thinking that a 28 gram load would be the biggest I would put through the gun just in an effort to preserve it as best I can while I am the custodian. Those loads would be mostly used on clays and maybe the odd fox. We don’t have the need to reach for high birds or the like down here.

Thanks again and I’m really glad that I found this forum. I will keep it close and follow the conversations as I’m sure to pick up some great tips.

Thought I’d clear up a little confusion about the Model 400 and Model 500. Here is the Model 400, also known as the Proprietary Model. It was made from 1900 to 1940 and was offered in all three grades. This example is the plainest grade offered. It featured the famous Webley Screw Grip third bite and the action had a flat back with rebates in back of action on each side of top tang.



And here is an example of the Model 500, Built as a light game gun in 12 and 16 gauge, it too was known as the Proprietary Model. It was only offered in Grade 2 and was made from 1925 to 1946. Had all the features of the Model 400 but featured a scalloped back on the sides of the action. It also does not have the rebates in the action on each side of the top strap as is on the 400. Crawford, in his book, “The History of W & C Scott Gunmakers”, says very few of this model were made. This one was marketed by Army & Navy.

Halifax this one? Well I have had the gun for some fifty plus years now, so it will be a death do us part thing and a problem for my sons.

Damascus,

That is a beautiful looking gun (and a new or refurbished case too). I hope you take it out and shoot it on occasion. The checkering looks sharp. Did you do some stock work on The old Purdey?

Personally, I love hammer guns and I have owned several English specimens over the years. In fact I just took my old H & H, circa 1876, out to my club to pattern it. I am taking it partridge shooting this coming season - a first. I was surprised at how good and consistent the patterns were with a gun with virtually no choke constrictions.

I must have watched that film three times over the years. Wonderful film with an excellent screen play and casting. As I recall, that was James Mason's last film.

I'll PM you, if you don't mind.

Michael

Great thread, very informative. Thanks for sharing Damascus.

I came across a Webley & Scott catalogue dated to 1953 which shows and describes the three grades of the model 700. See attached.


Model 701

Model 702

Model 700

A few pictures of the Webley & Scott 700 Series, Grade II (702), 12 bore, 2 3/4 inch, 28 inch barrels, 6 lbs. 4 ounces.






________
TC

Here's a 'Charles Dawson' 12 bore BLE, proofed in 1962. I've learned that Charles was better known as Ken Dawson, and he worked as a stocker and finisher at 10/11 St Mary's Row in Birmingham.

I think the gun was built on a Webley action, and engraved by Walter Howe.

If anyone can confirm this or has observations or comments, I'd be grateful.




https://i.imgur.com/IonhlLT.jpeg

Fantastic thread about this historic gun house! I'm a happy owner of a 20 ga W&C Scott&Son, circa 1898. A shotgun made expressly for Luis Vives & Cía, Eduardo Schilling father-in-law. With 26' ejection barrels is a wonderfull gun for walking hunting with my dogs. One of my prefer guns!

I don't know the model. Has the original stock and another longer made for me.

More pictures

It is good to bring this subject to life again. The Model 700 seems to get much respect. From reading the previous pages I think the Model 700 in 3" 20 gauge configuration must be relatively rare.

* Webley & Scott 702 photos moved to the catalogue posting above.

I have a Webley and Scott, 410 gauge side by side ejector model. It's a lovely little gun with 28 inch barrels, choked ful and full, 75mm chambers. It also comes in a tiny motor case, I think that it was made in the 1920's, but not 100% sure. There is also a strange serial number on the action and barrels which I can't figure out.!