Other than nostalgia what is it that makes Sweet Sixteens, "sweet"?

I didn't know until I lucked into an 0 frame 1889 hammer Parker. Forget the square-load and queen nonsense, it comes up by itself, pure magic. Nothing else I have comes even close. I suppose weight and balance.

Sweet 16 will be lighter than an 'standard' A5 16 ga. I suppose that makes them sweet. Came out in the early 50's.

Sweet 16 came out in 1936, see the Browning web site....Browning.com....

http://www.browning.com/results.asp?bg=x&category=X&find=Sweet+16&msearch=Search

http://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?ID=202

See 1936 on the second link..........

Suggest you call Browning if you want to find out the actual facts......

I believe "Sweet 16" was an advertising slogan capitalizing on the common saying "Sweet 16 and never been kissed"...Browning ran with it to make their A-5 16 different from the competition, naming their A-5 16 "SWEET 16".....and it worked, sales took off.......but Browning will give you the facts if you call them.......be polite....

Browning Customer Service
Morgan, Utah
1-800-333-3288

Doug, Thanks and I stand corrected. I thought it was introduced much later for some reason. I have a standard 16 of Remington production (WWII era gun) and it's pretty sweet to me.

Best,
jmc

It's made on a 20 gauge receiver vrs. a 12 gauge receiver.

Carries like a twenty and kills like a twelve; or kicks like a twelve and kills like a twenty. I forget which way it goes...Geo

As Doug says, it was a great advertising slogan by Browning. It was very popular with quail hunters down heah' in Mr. Bob's heyday.

As for the 16, as a gauge, it has a place, but IMO it is limited. Before flaming me let me explain what I mean. I have a very "sweet" 16, a 32" L.C. Smith, that I use for late season doves. Now, I admit that a 32" 16 ga. is very specialized. I use it for high flying doves, and nothing else.

I believe that a shooter who has multiple (gauge) guns should apply them as best as possible. I begin dove season with a .410 S x S, and also use it for early release (August) quail. After the first week or two of dove season the birds wise up and start flying higher, and are more evasive. They learn quickly. I then switch to a 20 ga. for doves, with 7/8 oz. loads. Both the .410 and the 20 are gracious plenty for their quarry at the time. Late in the season, when the big migratory doves move into the peanut and corn fields I may use the 16 with 1 oz. loads and full chokes. Works really great. I am a serious duck hunter, and believe they deserve to be killed with all expediency and surety. Therefore, I use only a 12 for them. If I knew the only duck there would be teal, I would feel fine using a 16 or even a 20, but I don't have the luxury of knowing that. So, I use a 12 ga. 3" load of steel 2s or 3s, or bismuth or tungsten 4s.

All this COULD be accomplished with a 16, I guess. But I am convinced there would be many more duck cripples. Steel is marginal enough at best, especially when you pass 30 yds., even with the heaviest 3" payloads. I just can't feel comfortable using a lighter load, intentionally, even over decoys, which makes up most of my duck hunting. The one other application I can see where a 16 would be perfectly fit, beside for teal, is shooting woodies in a small beaver pond. A quick handling, open choked, 16 would do that job just splendidly.

This is all just my opinion, after many years of using them. I would never chastise a man for choosing to use a 16 for big ducks, I just probably wouldn't understand it.

SRH

As a grouse hunter, an old soul and a future curmudgeon I have more 16's than any other gauge. Twelve vs twenty vs twelve...whatever. To me there has always been something special about a sixteen, perhaps it's just the mystique but I love the way a well balanced sixteen carries, shoots and kills.

Really stoked to finally have a "Sweet Sixteen." Just one of those guns I have always wanted to own and enjoy.

+1 Stan.

There's a time and a place for everything. I wouldn't want to go after woodcock with my 12, nor after ducks with my 16 or 20.

All of which, of course, is an excuse good reason to buy more guns and different guns.

My web footed birds I hunt with a 12 and 20, for grouse, woodcock and doves it's a 16 or 28. That way they all stay happy/

This is perception, so I may be all wet here, but... the 12 gauge is the yardstick I use to measure lethality. Most birds I shoot at with the 12 expire fairly quickly and are "brought to bag". With the 20s and 28s I've owned and used, I noticed what I believe to be a definite loss of lethality. Birds that would likely have died if I'd been using a 12, end up being lost and likely wounded with little chance of surviving. The 16 seems to hit a truely "sweet" spot, balancing very good lethality and a much better weight and balance than most 12s can deliver.

A very personal opinion, but for me a splinter-forearm side-by side feels more natural in the left hand if it's a 16 than either 12 or 20. 12 is just a bit too bulky for comfortable grip, while 20 fees just a bit too whimpy. A person with a different hand size or using different hold might think differently or not notice it at all.

I agree with that, Lloyd. I have noticed that loss of lethality on the dove field with the .410. I swat them down with it, but they aren't "dishragged", as we say. Many, many more of them are still alive. A good retriever is very important there. If I were losing any of them as cripples I would quit using it, but I've got a jam up retriever right now!



He loves it as much as any Boykin or Lab that ever drew a breath. Proabably went 98% for me the past season. He's so good a buddy tried to buy him off me 'bout a month ago. Gonna lose him soon, tho'. He'll start shooting a little next season, but I've got a chocolate Lab pup on the way.

SRH

Since the "Sweet Sixteen' was introduced in 1936 and the first 20 gauge A-5 was introduced in 1958, HOW can the "Sweet Sixteen" be built on a 20 gauge A-5 receiver....?......

Production of the A-5 began at F.N. in 1902, with the first gun shipped to the U.S.A. on September 17, 1903. Twelve gauge guns were usually offered in the U.S.A. until 1925, but production of the 16 gauge A-5 began in 1909.....and the name change "Sweet Sixteen" was introduced in 1936.....

http://www.browning.com/customerservice/qna/detail.asp?ID=202

So, is the Sweet 16 built on a 20ga A-5 frame or not?. My Grand dad's pre-1936 Belgian A-5 16 feels about like any actual Sweet 16 I've compared it to...Geo

Just called Browning and ask the difference between a Sweet Sixteen and a standard sixteen. The answer: engraving, finish and in some cases better wood. That's it.

AMEN......

Geo. Newbern take note, no it is NOT built on a 20 gauge frame since the 20 gauge frame was not around until 1958 and is smaller.........


Browning 16 gauge A-5 made in 1929, before the Sweet Sixteen moniker.....same gun, different engraving and cosmetics....

Balony.

Compare the two side by side.

The 20 is built on the 16 ga. frame then.

There are two frame sizes, big and small.

A 'sweet 16' is on the small frame, the standard 16 is on the large one.

Thus the weight difference.

All 'sweets' are 2 3/4" guns also.

I just put a sweet and a 20 ga. side by side and checked with a measure tape. Both FN. 16 from 1963, 20 from 1976 (last year).

The receivers are identical.

I don't have a standard 16 to compare, but my 12's are longer and wider, and slightly taller.

Dam... I forgot how nice this 16 is... it's one with a 28" vent rib. Now I gotta find a reason to go shoot it...

Just a guess -- maybe Browning's answer is correct for the later production guns made in Japan? Would be no surprise to learn they dropped a version to reduce the cost of setting up production in Japan.

Jay

For ShotgunJones and anyone else interested.......

I just spoke with Glen Jensen, Browning Historian, Browning Technical Assistance, Arnold, Missouri....

The 12 gauge and the 16 gauge standard and Sweet 16 are the same frame size castings at F.N......the 20 gauge frame size is smaller and stand alone in dimension.......

The internal milling and machining will differ, depending on Mag 12 or Standard, Mag 20 or Standard....the barrel dimensions will differ as will wood, effecting weight obviously, but the frame exterior dimensions are as noted above, as per Browning Technical Department....

Glen Jensen, Browning Technical Historian, Drawings and Diagrams - 1-800-322-4626
Browning Technical Service Department
3005 Arnold-Tenbrook Road
Arnold, Missouri 63010

He's wrong.

Sj,

My S16 is a 1960 gun with a 28", VR barrel, choked Mod. and I can not wait to get it in my hands.

It's interesting that there is apparently so much dispute over what makes a Sweet Sixteen different from the standard 16. I guess my question wasn't such a bad one to ask.

J

It was a great question!

The VR barrel was only on about 40% of the guns.

They also came in matted top and plain. Not sure I've seen a solid rib, but they could be out there.

You will enjoy it. The wood is a light English usually on that vintage.

I had this one Briley choked since the 'full' was a bit much. It had the wood redone by Garvin's, and the wood looks like new. The blue is about 95%... It gets a few outings a year.

Function with mine is 100% with Fiocchi dove loads.

Hope you enjoy your new toy.

Did they all have the lightening channels milled into the inside of the reciever around the loading gate and gold triggers?

I've owned quite a few, 12, 12 mag, 20 mag, 16, Sweet 16...........and the only two that were different as memory serves (sold most of them) were the 12 mag, which was notably heavy (new with factory mag Pachmyer) and the 20 mag which was notably very light in comparison to the others......All F.N. guns..........

Glen Jensen at Browning appeared to be an older gent and very nice, therefore I would guess his information is correct ....?.....There is so much conflict in Browning data, dates of manufacture and everything else, "never say never"......

Midwest Gun Works is also very knowledgeable about Brownings and is a stocking parts dealer for the older obsolete Browning parts....I will ask a person I know there what his take is on the A-5 frame castings......

Sj,

My S16 is a 1960 gun with a 28", VR barrel, choked Mod. and I can not wait to get it in my hands.

It's interesting that there is apparently so much dispute over what makes a Sweet Sixteen different from the standard 16. I guess my question wasn't such a bad one to ask.

J

Midwest Gun Works is a stocking Browning Dealer, sells new Browning O.E. factory parts for most of their older models.....and new factory stocks for most models........I figured they would know about frame sizes, since they sell the new factory stocks....

Rich or Travis @ Midwest Gun Works - 636-475-7300, Pevely, Missouri....

F.N. made guns:

Rich says, the Mag 12 and the Standard 12 have the same frame...

The 16's, all of them from the very early ones clear to the end of production in 1976 have the same frame size which is smaller than the 12 frame , the Sweet 16, the Standard 16 older and newer, ...all have the same frame and will accept the same stock.......

Basically the same information Browning gave JG during his phone call.........

The 20's have a lighter frame, slightly smaller and the standard 20 requires a different stock than the Mag 20 and the 16 stocks will not fit on any 20......

Jay, I second your opinion. Love my 16 sxs for carry weight vs. killing power ratio.

OK, I got both guns out of the safe(s) again.

My original assertion was that the Sweet 16 is built on a 20 gauge receiver. If the 16 predates the 20, then it must be the other way around.

The following measurements tend to support the assertion that the Sweet 16 and 20 ga. A-5's share the IDENTICAL receiver (at least before the gauge specific machining).

Guns in question 76Z-88xxx (1976 20ga.) and 5S-36xxx (S-16, 1965). I originally claimed 1963... sorry, it's from 65.

My advisors are Mr. Starrett and Mr. Stanley.

Mr. Stanley says both receivers measure 6 3/8" in length from the back of the mythical 'hump' to the front.

Mr. Starrett says:

Height top to bottom just in back of the closure button - 2 9/16".

Width same place - 1 9/32". Width across the rounded part above the bolt - 1 7/16".

Height just in front of the trigger including trigger plate - 2 3/4".

These measurements are indentical on both guns.

Both of my advisors claim the tang length is also identical, although the distance between the tops of the tangs varies very, very, slightly probably making stock interchange very 'iffy'. Stock interchange on A-5's in general is known to be 'iffy'. There was some hand fitting (imagine!) on these.

So... my advisors have a different opinion on this than some other advisors.

Will someone kindly measure a standard 16?

As Nimitz radioed Halsey "The world wonders".

Can't comment on the frame size, but I have owned one each Browning Standardweight 16 and two each Sweet 16's. Before I get to them, I'll go to Browning advertising copy, as included in the 1940 Shooter's Bible. That publication separates Standard 16's from Sweet 16's. Refers to the Sweet 16 as being a "special lightweight automatic shotgun", about 6 3/4#. One weight saving measure is a narrower raised rib on both solid and VR guns. Standard 16 listed at 7 1/4#. And from the introduction of the 16 until 1940, chamber length on both types was 2 9/16". Thus, if you want an A-5 16 and don't want to shoot short shells, beware of the early ones.

Now as to weight, on the guns I've owned, taken on the same digital postal scale: Standardweight 16, 28" barrel, solid rib. Weight: 7/12. Sweet 16, 26" barrel, vent rib. Weight: 7/0. Sweet 16, 28" plain barrel. Weight: 6/14.

I cannot comment on frame size, since I never owned a Standard and a Sweet at the same time. But per the above, I can certainly comment on weight. Whatever weight reduction features the Sweet 16 has, I'd say they will result in about half a pound less weight (per the Browning material from the 1940 Shooters Bible), assuming a gun with the same length barrel, same type rib, factory stock. (All of mine had unaltered factory wood.) Note that of the 2 28" inch guns, the plain barrel Sweet has nearly a pound in weight advantage over the Standard. Add in a few ounces for the solid rib on the Standard and you probably have just about that half pound difference in favor of the Sweet.

Browning Sweet 16's are serious quail killing machines, for sure! If we had gobs of quail like in the old days, I'd still be hunting with one. The Light 20 is a 'sweet' gun too IMHO.

Has anyone seen a short chambered Sweet Sixteen?

Yes, but they're not all that common. Browning only made about 23,000 16ga A-5's, total, from 1936-40. And because they didn't differentiate between Standards and Sweets by serial number until 1953, no way to know how many of those were Sweet 16's. They made over 100,000 16's from 1946-53 (again, no breakdown Standard vs Sweet during that period), and another 110,000 Sweet 16's from 1953-76. So your odds of finding a short-chambered Sweetie vs 2 3/4" aren't very good. If we assume (always risky), based on the fact that roughly equal numbers of Standards and Sweets were produced from 53-57, that the same ratio held for the rest of the time the guns were made, that would mean there were about 15X more 2 3/4" Sweets produced vs 2 9/16".

HI Everyone,
I have not posted in quite a while. I agree with much of what Stan said on page 1. That said I do have a few disagreements. First off my favorite guage is a properly sized and weighted 16 ga, almost always a continental offering. I most often hunt Ruffed Grouse and released pheasant. When carrying all day long often on my hands and knees, a gun much over 6 lbs is just too much, I need to be quick after 3,4 or more hours in the field. If I am using one of my 12's that weigh 7.5 to 9.5lbs I just will not be as effective. That said I cant argue with a nice light 12 (6.5lb area I have a beautiful grade 4 Ithica 1913 that weighs 6lb 4oz with 28" barrels. To me it is less the guage and more the largest guage while retaining proper weight and balance. I don't see a reason to use a 410 which may work well on early season dove or quail it still is less effective then a similar weighted 28,20,16 or 12 so why use it?
I have a couple of very nice 20's but rarely use them because the 16's have more payload and weigh about the same.
Ofcourse I am assuming you are equally effective accuracy wise with all the guages. Now when I hunt late season wild pheasant anything less then a modern 12 that can take high pressure number 4's or 5's is is not enough so I deal with the weight. The walking is quite a bit easier then grouse hunting physically.
I do not hunt ducks but I believe I would feel the same, either a 12 or even 10 guage, in particular if I am not walking very much.
Enjoy what ever is the right guage or gun for you. I love my 16's both o/u's and sxs's but do also take out my 12's and even 10's.

Jeff G.

From a pal who has an A-5 book. Sorry, I don't have the title or author. Info on chamber length is good...


Could find no specific mention re. 16ga on same receiver as
20ga. however on pg 110: "Part of the forward edge of the receiver is milled away to accommodate the 16ga cartridge
stop in fig, 110-1. The 16ga Standard, Sweet Sixteen and 20ga Light Weight used this system throughout production."

Other info re. chamber sizing on 16ga., in section on Standard
Weight 16ga.: This gun was developed as a lighter option to the 12ga. Auto-5. FN used the 2 9/16 inch (65mm) chamber on all 16ga. Auto-5's until May 1940.

Page 151 same section: "Records are unclear on chamber size for 16ga, Auto-5's sold to Allied soldiers following liberation of Belgium in 1944. Also unknown was the chamber size of this model that FN sold to markets other than the US. August 8, 1958 FN sales materials for the Auto-5 indicate the following: The 16ga. barrels were until recently chambered for 2 9/16 inch cartridges. The conclusion from this statement is that FN supplied some markets with 2 9/16 inch chambered Standard Weight 16 and Sweet Sixteen Auto-5's until the late 1950's".

"Beginning January 1957, Browning imports of the Sweet Sixteen were chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells. The receivers
for the Standard 16 and the Sweet Sixteen, chambered for 2 3/4 inch, are both marked with an "X" preceding the serial number. The barrels are marked for 2 3/4 inch shells and the
"16-70" chamber size indicator is stamped on the left side of the barrel near the barrel extension".

Also sending an order form from Wet Dog Publications for a Browning Auto-5 Shotgun book. It's a pretty inclusive work
that I'm sure you'll enjoy. Have made copies of those pages covering 16ga. both Standard Weight and Sweet Sixteen and will post them to you via snail mail.

Thanks, SJ. I appreciate your efforts.

Re the quote about 2 3/4" chambers post-1957 . . . as a former owner of one each Standard 16 and Sweet 16 made before 1957, I can verify that they handled American factory 2 3/4" shells without the least problem. That would not be true if they'd been chambered for 2 9/16" shells, because it's not only a question of the chamber, but also of ejection, etc. And if none of the 16's made prior to Jan 57 were 2 3/4", that would mean WAY more short chambered 16's, both Sweet and Standard, floating around than 2 3/4" guns. About 300,000 of them, not including the pre-war guns. By the late 50's and 60's--which was long before the current interest in short-chambered guns--I'm not sure where anyone in this country would have gone to buy short 16ga shells for those guns, and that's what they would require.

I have no doubt that FN continued to make short 16ga A-5's long after the war. 16's, many of them still short-chambered if not made specifically for the American market, were still quite popular in postwar Europe.