I need help identifying a Prussian Daly 12ga SXS. I was told it was built about 1890s by Sauer & Sons, with Krupp barrels. You can contact me at craighaven@gmail.com
Thanks,
Craig

A slight oversight as I missed this thread for a time.















According to Jeff's list 108xx would date to circa 1904. This also pairs well with all of S,D&G's Sauer adverts at the time. I have wondered if Lindner & Sauer had crossed sourcing lines for effort. There may be boxlocks with upper & lower scears earlier than 106xxx, but the block of S,D&G imports may have begun in that block.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I noticed in Mr. Cate's text that Sauers 108271 & 108460 were from September 1903 per the Suhl Museum. So maybe it experienced proof in 1903.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

It's a nice looking Sauer built Daly, but it's post 1900, not a pre 1898. Looks like one that was previously listed on the IMA site.

From GGCA's site I noticed it is in the 106xxx range which Jeff Stephen's list gives 1903.


1905/1906 Sauer Gun Advert - Sole U.S. Agents - Schoverling, Daly & Gales

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Chief- It was from IMA, but is a 12 ga not a 16.
Craig

I've been corresponding with Craig offline. I agree with Raimey's dating of the gun as 1903. The rest of the markings are consistent with that date.

This is a very interesting Daly. The Daly model 80 was made and marked by Sauer is is advertised in the 1902 SD&G Daly catalog. That said, the model 80 was a pretty basic gun - flat back action, no sideslips, etc.

SD&G noted in the model 80 description that the gun was being made by the same manufacturer who made their drillings (i.e., Sauer) due to the "excessive demand" for their other models. Despite this gun being a being a non-ejector, Craig's gun is definitely a cut above the model 80. I am not sure of the model as I have not noted this gun in the period SD&G catalogs I own. While not wildly different in styling from a Lindner sourced Daly of the same period, there are notable differences. The cocking indicators on the side of the action being the item that first jumps out to me.

Ken

Taking the following U.S. of A. patent #305264 where William Anson sought protection for the upper & lower scear innovation,
http://www.google.com/patents/US305264?p...son&f=false (GB - August 26th, 1882 - 4089), and with the U.S. of A. being what 20 years, Germany what 15 years and the U.K. 14? -

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post260064

It seems that Sauer waited some 20 years before settling on a boxlock design in 1902/1903.

Sauer's side cocking indicator is found under DRGM/Gebrauchsmuster Nr. 130,243(signalwellen für kipplaufgewehre /Spannanzeiger) and was filed on 24th January 1900, with subsequent registration on 14th March 1900. Protection under the D.R.G.M. was only valid for 3 years with an additional 3 years at a cost of 60 Marks. I'll have to look to see if Sauer upped the ante but April 1903(1.14.1903) would have seen the protection pass and this example doesn't wear the D.R.G.M. 130243 around the indicator, or does it? Edward K. Tryon Jr. & Company of Philadelphia seems to have peddled some of the earlier Sauer boxlocks in the 103xxx range. Edward K. Tryon, Jr. expired in 1904 and the company name changed to Edward K. Tryon Company so Sauer 103221 had to have experienced proof prior to 1904 and it doesn't wear the D.R.G.M. 130243. So that would box it in between 1903 & 1904.

So the subject scattergun could well be in the 1st upper/lower scear boxlock shipment to S,D&G. No touchmarks on the standing breech are there?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Looks tremendously like my nephew's 10 ga. Prussian Sauer. I cannot clearly see the marks...does it have the proofmark of the little soldier? Steve

You probably mean Hercules with his club. There is one on the end of the through lug on the bottom of the barrels.

In addition to the different cocking indicators it is also missing the Lindner escutchens on the forend and I can't see any Diamond Grade markings on the rib which this gun would seem to have sufficient engraving to be considered. The machine made cross hatching on the rib is very different as well.

No, I mean the little Prussian soldier with a hat like Napoleon's army, and a rifle across his chest...I have seen them, and my nephew's gun has them.

I received and email from J.Cates who said it is a model 40 built about 1911 -1912. I guess I should buy his book!

Craig

It always puzzles me why Mr. Cate's dating very often differs from the list published in DGJ by Jeff Stephens. I have seen nothing published by Mr. Cates indicating he has superior information and that his list is correct. I would like to see his "corrected" date list in total and the reasons for the differing dates. It certainly would be of major benefit to Sauer collectors. I do not have his book, is it published there? If so, I also should buy his book.

I am starting to wonder,Lefever would go back and pull a gun to be upgraded or used as a "special", I wonder if Daly-Sauer did the same and if there is any special marking? The ser# series says 1903-4 how do you get to 1911-12. Just wondering!

Craig

I'll have to take a second look at the 1912 SD&G catalog. While SD&G was a big seller of Sauer-made (and marked) guns, the Daly models offered in the catalog do not look like this gun. This is clearly a Sauer made gun badged with the Daly name; I just haven't seen this Daly model ever advertised. When I get back to the house, I'd like to see how closely the Sauer model 40 pictured in the 1912 catalog matches this gun.

Ken

- I also based my serial number data on Jeff's article (DGJ volume 15, issue 2.)

Chief(LK), your post seems a bit terse or brusque. As I see it, there are 2 columns for Mr. Cate's response. One being completely wrong and the other that he holds a page from the coveted Sauer ledger with Sauer 106xxx on it, or something equivalent. If he doesn't hold the page, probability is not in favor of a 1910/1911 serialization as the peripheral or bounds data does not support it in the least. If one holds with sequential serialization, it being a form of a lump of steel or whatever was issued a serial number with the rest of the block in 1903/1904. It is possible that the subject Charles Daly - Sauer was completed in 1910/1911 but as Ken notes it doesn't seem to fit a specific modell and the thought process would be that it was in the initial shipment of upper/lower scear boxlocks. On page 95 Mr. Cate notes an Edward K. Tryon, Jr. & Company Sauer boxlock(same basic setup but not a scalloped frame and a house/inspection number of 260) with serial number 103221 and and also a 1910/1911 date but in his serial number list on page 284 he gives Nr. 103,221, Modell 11, as being made in 1903, which is closer to the truth since Edward K. Tryon, Jr. expired in 1904, if I have my history correct. Jeff Stephen's list and Mr. Cate's serial number list in rear of the book support one another in most cases and I think the difference to be between a serial number issued date & a completed date much like a patent that has a submission date and issued date.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I intended nothing terse or brusque, simply noted the differences in the two datings by Mr. Stephens and Mr. Cates and wondered about the differences. Mr. Cates seemed to be "correcting" Mr. Stephens in his email to the original poster. If Mr. Stephens is indeed incorrect, I would like to alter my copy of his listings to read correctly, if possible. I have spoken with each of them in the past, as I have mentioned to you in our conversations. It would be a good thing for the collecting "group" as a whole if Mr. Cates has correcting information he has obtained from his visit to the Sauer building that could be made public. It is not a good and proper thing to have two conflicting date lists circulating, IMO. If they can be reconciled, it would benefit all. That's my only point.

Chief, thanks for the clarification. And I agree 100% that any differences need to be brought front and center so that the end product is greatly enhanced. I have read in a cross-examination from the mid 1930s that the records of Schoverling, Daly & Gales did exist and a fella admitted to having them but I can't recall the fellas name for now but I will search for it. So I would suppose that their records are out there somewhere.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

One question, what is the tube length?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Only had a tape measure, but a hair over 28 inches about 28 1/8.

Craig

What about 28 1/3"? That would be an integer 72cm. Is safe on the safety? A cross check would be Sauer 106191 which is a V,L&D and in the notes at G&H. There was a large block of 103xxx & 106xxx production that went to V,L&D. It is noted as having a house /inspection number of 269A. Maybe G&H has the date range. Interesting that 107073 has the D.R.G.M. 130243 around the cocking indicators.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Thanks to Mr. Beach's capital efforts, we now know that 106191 was in inventory at V,L&D by Summer of 1903, or arrived sometime in the 1st half of the year. He notes that there were several in the 106xxx serial number range that were in inventory in 1903. This is ground truth for the 106xxx manufacture block being in 1903 but there is the slight possibility that one was set back and completed later.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Yes, safe is on the safety, there is only engraving around the cocking ,indicators, and barrels could be 28 1/3. Is the 228U on the barrels the build number#?

Craig

Correction, the " safe "is block cut into the top tang, and the barrels measure 71.3 cm.

Craig

The integer value for the tubeset length would have been 28". Not sure on the house number, inspection number, etc. S,D&G had a very large presence at the Sportsman Expo held at the Madision Square Garden and I believe it began 1895. At the 3rd annual event in 1897 S,D&G had a display case of 50 upper rung sporting weapons, which when summed was the most expensive display at the event. T.W. Stake was in charge of the display. By the 6th annual event in 1904, George R. Schneider had replaced T.W. Stake and George R. Schneider also represented S,D&G at many sporting events. He may have also competed? Anyway, it is possible that your recently acquired Daly Sauer gun could have been in the display case as some point. Without the S,D&G records it would be tough to prove.

Interesting below in a 1901 Schoverling, Daly & Gales advert that E.K. Tryon, Jr. & Company is an outlet for the Daly 3 Barrel Gun. I would hazard a guess that S,D&G owned some interest.


1901 Charles Daly Gun advert

I have wondered what the date of an advert when S,D&G referred to the Daly Gun as well as a Sauer scattergun?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

One of the items that is very interesting in the period SD&G catalogs is how prominently the Sauer guns are presented. SD&G retailed a whole litany of very nice doubles. The 1909 catalog includes a wide range of Parker, LC Smith, AH Fox, Ithaca, and Lefever doubles for sale (among other lesser brands). But the Sauer guns are presented more prominently. The Sauer guns are advertised right behind the Daly guns in the catalogs and the photos/drawings of the Sauer guns are much larger than the other makes.

In the advertising superlatives, SD&G makes a big deal out of the Sauers being the finest "machine made gun in the world." The Dalys are presented as "entirely hand made guns." I always got a chuckle out of this as the highest grade Sauers are absolutely beautiful guns with impeccable fit and finish. In 1909, the ornately engraved Sauer model 60 retailed for $600, or $100 more than the Daly model 500 Regent Diamond quality gun. I was would guess the high-grade Sauers had at least a little bit of individual handwork in them (toungue firmly in cheek.)

In terms of the Craig's Daly, I don't think it is a rebadged model 40, or at least not a circa-1910 Sauer model 40. The 1909 SD&G catalog lists the Sauer model 40 as having both ejectors and game scene engraving. It does appear that Craig's gun has those. That said, earlier Sauer model 40s may not have had these features either (?). Let me taker a look at me 1902 and 1903 SD&G catalogs.

Ken

S,D&G had their fingers in almost all the sporting weapon pies and I would be inclined to believe that firearms merchants in the U.S. of A. that have Sauer wares with their names atop placed their orders thru S,D&G. Ewd. K. Tryon, Jr., D.S. Spaulding, Louis D. Jordan, J.A. Pretchtel, Addison Stillwell/H.N. Scott/Henry Vogt all probably have a connection to S,D&G. Louis Jordan is of special interest as he is noted in 1897 as a Chicago gunmaker that has relatives at the Fr. Krupp facility and is the exclusive agent for Krupp steel tubes. He was born in 1870 and expired Nov. 24, 1932 in New Haven, Conn. from complications from pneumonia. He was some organizer of the Maxim Munitions Corp. Don't know where he apprenticed, but by he received a Bronze Medal at the 1893 World's Fair(Columbian) and possibly other awards for his wears noted as "handmade guns of highest excellence". Thru his relatives and with the aid of an uncle who was an officer of the court or something court related, he was able to import Krupp tubes or tubesets, blue and unfigured, comparable to Crown or Whitworth in appearance at the time. The method of joining is described as a dovetail effort and I wonder if it is similar to Sauer's patent. At first I think he mounted some effort to fit new Krupp tubesets to old frames for customers but the end result was hard on the eyes. In 1896 he received an order of 24 sporting weapons from Europe, 3 being drillings(one ordered by Dr. C.E. Fuller of Chicago) & 8 others having ejectors. The lot was reduced to 1/2 dozen by February 1897.

I think many of these examples to be just that and Craig's could have easily have been in the lot.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Louis Jordan, Gunmaker at 71 & 73 East Randolph Street - 1894 advert noting Medal at 1893 Columbian Expo.

It sure looks to have upper and lower scears, so I wonder if image is the sporting weapon he won the medal with it and where he sourced it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey's post may have given some readers the impression that the 1893 World's Fair was held in "Columbia". It was, in fact, held in Chicago, and commemorated the 400th anniversary of Columbus' celebrated entry into the New World. A railroad car full of guns where displayed, hardly any of them documented by serial number, except the Parkers. There is much documentation of the companys that displayed, however, as well as pictures of the displays.

I appreciate you keeping us on task 8bore. It appears I left a n off & I'll correct that. Colombia doesn't have a "u". Were any of the Parkers in the 1893 Chicago World's Columbian Exposition fitted by Louis D. Jordan with new tubesets?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

By 1898 he was at 86 & 88 State Street, Chicago & appears to be known for his triple barreled sporting weapons. At some point he was head of sporting weapons construction at the Marlin Arms Company(Remember Charles Daly was president of Marlin Arms) as well as being a superintendent at the Westinghouse Arms Plant.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, I don't know the answer to the question about Parkers with Louis D. Jordan barrels. I only know that my Columbian Exposition B Grade Parker ten is wearing its original Damascus barrels, although a bit shorter than when it left the Parker factory. Bill Murphy

Don't know where Kensal Rise might be but I think he has a Parker with a set of Louis D. Jordan pattern welded tubes.

It was J.L. Galef(85 Chambers Street - may have started out at 258 Broadway) who in the mid to late 1930s stated that he owned Schoverling, Daly & Gales at some point and had the records. It was also brought out that S,D&G sold more sporting weapons to individuals than any other sporting weapons concern.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Has anyone ever seen the inlaid Sauer medal in a Daly before? Or in a Sauer & Sohns?

Craig

I wouldn't say the Wildmann with a club/staff is rare on the fore lug. Greifeldt & other's either put their trademark on either the fore or aft lug. Not sure on the Sauer Dalys though.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Craig,

FWIW, I have not seen the Hercules with a club figure on the lug of a Daly before. The lower grade Daly model 80s did not have the figure on the lug. As Raimey mentions, I have seen it before on other makes.

Ken

I have found pictures of a couple of model 40's, but both without the cocking indicators, also all the cocking indicators I have seen made by Sauer are protrusions or pin type, either on the side or top. This Sauer/Daly, has a raised blade and turns.

Craig

It seems there were several examples with the trademark on the fore lug:


[/quote]
Geno's post of a Modell 18
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181626&page=5

[/quote]
RGS022

[/quote]
CJ's

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=181626&page=6

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rs

I could easily be mistaken, but I find myself hard pressed to believe it is a Modell 40 as it looks to be a Modell 14. Sauer 117715 is somewhat similar, with a Greener safety, xxxU stamp on the tube, has the DRGM around the cocking indicator as well as firearms merchant D.S. Spaulding(Cadena 23, Mexico, D.F.) atop the rib. Also I am curious where S,D&G drew the line for referring to a scattergun as a Daly or a Sauer. It seems that if a scattergun had Sauer on it, it was referred to as a Sauer gun. By the early 1900s(possibly earlier) S,D&G donated either a Daly or a Sauer gun for the trophy at a shooting match. In 1906 for example up till April 14th, all the eager contestants were shooting for a Daly then the prize was a Sauer gun. I believe it was September 8th for the final match for the Sauer. I'm sure the prize would not have been the $1k U.S. of A. Sauer available at the time or the top Daly, but on certain events a similar Sauer to Craig's just might have been the prize. By 1908 Daly liked to see articles/adverts similar to the following:



For the time, I don't know what the entry fee might have been for such events but about the same time the entry fee for a schoolboy for a similar event, probably a T.W. Stake scattergun as the prize, was $0.20.

How long is the water table and what does the knuckle resemble?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I forgot to note that it may have been that the American firearms merchants which were a S,D&G retail outlet had a nice Daly gun with their name atop in their showcase or I guess it may have been their personal sporting weapon. In Mr. Cate's text on page 95 he shows the Edw. K. Tyron, Jr. & Co. Philadephia with Sauer serial number 103221 with the side frame blade indicators. Edw. K. Tyron, Jr. & Company experienced a name change in 1904 so if the name is correct it was made prior to 1904. Mr. Cate refers to it as a Modell 11 and not an American model.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

What was the difference between the model 14 and model 18? The 18 you posted certainly is identical to the action, but with more engraving and inlays. It is the first pictures of the same cocking indicators also. This is real progress!
Craig

11(non-scalloped frame), 14, 17(ejectors), 18(Meisterwerk with all you can think of, chopperlump, etc., wadded up in one unit). Don't know about progress but more confusion prior to a consensus. I'm sure the desired info is on this site somewhere, it is just a matter of finding it.

Top rib is unique. What is the buttplate?


Subject Sauer

Geno's post of an Modell 18 - #151xxx

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Butt plate is horn with horizontal grooves. Just finished reading the crowns and caveman post of 2010, most interesting! On
the barrel flats there is a 13/1 mark on each side, what does that mean?

Craig

That is a vulgar fraction and notes a diameter. Most of the time a 12 bore will be stamped 13 or 13/1 but I've seen a few that were stamped 11. In 1904/1905 there were articles that stated that S,D&G was sole Sauer agents and that the frames were 1" longer than typical. That's why I was curious as to the frame length.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I will measure it for you when the frame gets back, the little initial plate in the toe of the butt stock was missing, so it is being replaced.I did measure the distance from barrel hook to face, and that is 43mm, face to end of flats is 58mm. I will also try and get some better pics on the barrel markings.

Craig

Craig:
I think the 58mm answers the question. Thanks to the grand efforts of Hans Pfingsten & John Mann compiled in DGJ Winter 2005 at page 177 notes that typical German doubles from the period measured 48mm while the Daly/Lindner/Sauer boxlock variants were 56mm and their sidelock cousins measured 62mm.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For "machine-made", pre circa 1925 Sauer long guns are very indivdualistic. In over 30 years looking, I've never seen two exactly alike (even "pairs"). That's a huge statement for a company that had made approximatley 100,000 of them by the turn of the century.

I typically see the cocking indicators seen on Craig's gun photos on Euro-market guns; Americans apparently didnt like or need them(they let more water into the action?).

One thing no one has mentioned; the "shoulders" on the boss coming rearward from the top frame on either side of the toplever pivot. They end abruptly on Sauers whereas Dalys are "typically" (German-gun weasel-word!) filed smooth down to the tang.

It takes years looking at these guns to get a "feel" for them- beyond what the catalogs may or may not say. Jeff Stephens (despite his conviction that it is a "staff" not a club :-) has a that feel.

Never say never with German guns..........

Best,

C.

Additional images










Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Raimey, thanks again for posting the additional pics. I think I need to take some photography classes!

Best,
Craig

Have ordered Jim Cates book, hopefully the wait will not be long, wish we still had Geno and John Mann to help dig through data! They are missed!

Best
Craig

Any one know what the three stamps on the barrels next to the ser.# stand for? There is also the same stamp on the lower rib in the same area. Looks like an " h " ??

Can you snap an image thru a glass? Typically the mark on the lower rib is a lowercase Gothic/script g. The other marks may be Cavemen. I'm not sure that Wildmann/Hercules needed a staff and most images show a staff of sorts that has one end larger than the other & it is contoured like a club. Folklore has it Hercules killed a viper in the cradle, worked over a wild boar or 2 and may have slain some of his enemies with that jawbone of a jackass like Samson. I don't think he preferred a staff.

I'm curious if some have considered the U xxx an Untersuchungsstempel or inspection type number.

On the Sauer, I guess the principle of Ockham's Razor might be best and it is what it is upon face value.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ockhams's Razor, long time since I have heard that! I will try and get some better pics. Mean time I will go get a trappist beer!

Best,
Craig

Well, it does not match any known Daly! It has more features and engraving than a model 40. It has more features and engraving than a model 14.The barrels have the inlaid Sauer medal and a different pattern on the rib. The finishes are near 100%, it does not appear to have been fired. I finally measured the chambers and they are
2 1/2 inch. Ser # says probably 1903 manufacture.
A very interesting Charles Daly! Thanks to all who are sending me data!
Best
Craig

Received my copy of Jim Cates book on Sauer & Sohns, excellent work, and very good reference! Highly recommended!

Best,
Craig

Some additional images along with the Sauer Modell XII being a new acquisition. And I expect images of a Sauer Modell XIV pretty soon. Craig if you would post the dims or I can root them out.


Charles Daly-Sauer & Sauer Modell XII






Sauer Modell XII top & Daly-Sauer lower


Sauer Modell XII top & Daly-Sauer lower




Daly Sauer and Sauer Modell XII


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

MM on lower rib










Interesting stamp of H over a O on the water table of this Modell XIV with 3 Ringe Krupp tube steel.

Happy New year to you Fellas & my wish is that you spend as much time in the bush as you can stand.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse