To what extent are so-called heavy loads likely to damage an older American classic SxS ?

I regularly shoot 1-1/8 ounce 12 gauge loads in my older American SxS's, for both pheasant and quail. Others that I hunt with often use 1-1/4 ounce and some Golden Pheasant 1-3/8 ounce loads.

Setting aside the question of whether the additional weight of shot is necessary; are these heavy loads damaging to the shotguns? Especially to L.C. Smiths and Lefevers with their sidelock/sideplate inletting. Are these heavy loads more likely to cause cracks in the buttstocks or wrists?

I'm supposing that since the pressure is within SAAMI limits, metal damage is probably not a significant issue?

Opinions ???

Jerry

Jerry:

1. IMO, what you mention are heavy loads, "not so called"...and yes, very likely to damage older side by sides with 85 + year old wood.

2. I don't know what kind of quail you are shooting down there, but I have never used anything over 7/8 ounce of lead for quail....any more is a waste IMO....

3. The additional weight of shot (ejecta) is "what" creates most of the recoil and thus damage to 85+ year old wood especially in side lock guns which have weaker stock heads because of all the inletting.

4. Old 85+ year old guns have NO IDEA what SAAMI is, since it was not around when they were made. I would suggest RST or Poly Wad Vintagers or similar loadings for "off the shelf ammo" based on what bird you are after.

Use your own disgression, but common sense dictates much lighter loads for the old ladies, if you want long term problem free use of those guns.

Just my opinion....

I've seen few Lefevers that don't have at least a small crack at the head, usually at the lower tang. While the actions are built like tanks, 100 yr old wood is 100 yr old wood, no matter who shaped it. If there is a legitimate need to shoot more than 1 oz loads, I would make sure the action is glass bedded at a minimum.

Parker



Smith





NID



Fox ready for staple repair courtesy of cc/dt

On the other hand Turn-of-the-century Pigeon shooters were using 1 1/4 oz. 3 1/2 dram loads routinely

http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1897/VOL_28_NO_22/SL2822019.pdf
Dr. Hinkins of Chicago, has an L. C. Smith gun that was formerly used by Rolla Heikes. This gun was fired 60,000 times while in the possession of Mr. Heikes and has had over 15,000 shots fired from it since that time by Dr. Hinkins. This goes to show what the
L. C. Smith gun will stand, as it is still tight and strong us a new gun.

The standard 12g load found on L.C. Smith hang tags 1887-about 1920 was 1 1/4 oz. 3 dram

And will never shoot loose!

All the reasons I have given up on old SxS's. I love to shoot and hunt my guns and will load lite stuff for clays, but don't want to have to worry about punky wood, thin barrels, etc. if I decide to hunt a gun and shoot some Super X.

Drew, you missed the whole point/topic........your second post relates to NEW WOOD, NEW GUNS FROM YESTERYEAR.......we are talking about 100 year old guns, 100 year old wood etc.....IN 2012....very big difference.........we all know what they shot back at the turn of the century when the guns WERE NEW.........

If you want to shoot 1 1/4 oz, 3 1/2 DE in your original LC stocked gun today, knock yourself out.......best of luck.......post a picture for us after 2,000 rounds will ya.......

"Drew, you missed the whole point/topic"

Uh Doug...you missed the and apparently the pics



I've had the head of the stock of my Smith big country pheasant gun glasbedded and shoot B&P MB Classic 1 1/8 oz. at 1330 fps without concern.

jerry: hit aint the metal you gotta worry about...hits da wood!

figure wood drys out and shrinks over time. plus, soakin hit wid gon awl jes makes hit weaker.

so when you shoots your 50 year old gun, wid hits 50 plus year old wood, hit's eventually gonna crack, regardless of the load. the heavier the load, the sooner hits gonna crack... got it?

now for the good news. in recent years, science has created some absolutely wonderful epoxy glues...so when she does crack, jes glue er up with some clamps an keep on shootin! if its a really valuable piece, dont shoot it with heavy loads and bring it to a pro once a year for evaluation.

It's the wood is right, and it's the wood because over that long a time it shrinks and often splits whether you shoot the gun or not. Once it splits it's more likely to fail, especially with heavy loads. A lot of vertical cracks in stock heads can not be closed and glued without relieving some wood around the receiver. I've seen that a number of times. You close and glue a crack up and the stock will not go back on the gun.

I should have stated that my older American SxS's have been "restored" and updated with epoxy bedding in buttstocks/heads. Even so, I deem it wise to avoid any 12 ga. loads heavier than 1-1/8 oz.

Some friends use heavier loads.

JERRY

Jerry,

No need to give up your heavier shot loads. I use the 1 1/4 oz 12 gauge loads listed under RST's Premium Grade as Pheasant loads. They pattern like all get out from my "made in 1894" Remington 1894 D grade damascus SxS. Listed as low pressure just like their other offerings.
http://www.rstshells.com/rst_classic_shotshells_shotshells.htm

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Yeah, but they're 2 3/4", which I believe had been the standard chamber length in old American guns, like your Remington, but not so on old British guns.

My Westley Richards had its chambers lengthened to 2 3/4", probably to help it sell over here, but I still only use 2 1/2" loads out of deference to its 1890 British beginnings.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. I have had the stocks of LCs and one Fox split while shooting nothing heavier than 1 ounce loads at moderate (1200 fps) velocities so I have taken to glass bedding the stock heads and insuring that the action screws are all tight on all of my vintage guns as a precaution against splitting. Since glass bedding my actions I have not had a stock show any signs of cracking even when occasionally shooting moderately heavy ounce and one eighth loads in my 16 gauge Fox, Lefever, Parker and LC. I have given up shooting 12 gauge but do dabble in 10 gauge doubles that are more than 125 years old but keep the velocities in the 1100 fps range and don't exceed one and a quarter ounce loads. As far as chamber pressures go I stay at of below 9,500 psi in my steel barreled guns and at or below 7500 psi in my damascus barreled guns.

That would be true with British guns, but I was directing my answer to Jerry's original question which was.... "To what extent are so-called heavy loads likely to damage an older American classic SxS?"

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If I'm not mistaken Remington 1894/1900s had 2 5/8" chamber for 12 ga. My 1902 1900 does.

Drew posted pics of cracks in some American classics...here is a 1937 Sterly I tracked all the way back to the rear tang.

The PRE-SAVAGE, prior to 1930 manufactured, "Fox Built" Sterly's had a factory corrugated nail placed horizontally in that 'crack likely' ROTARY BOLT area just for that reason.....I guess Savage dropped that to save some cost....i.e. the result is as you have pictured.....

The Fox built guns, pre 1930, will usually "hair line" crack near the side panels where the receiver fits very tight and firm against the old wood.....if heavy loads are used consistently ......glass bedding of course helps........

oops, completely missed that, Model2128ga. My apologies.

PA24; odd you should mention the corrugated nail. Just finished this about an hour ago; heavy wire, legs included, imbedded in Acraglass with legs that go all the way through the wood.

Great....I always titanium or steel pin my stock repairs side to side and glass them, especially the L.C.'s and other side lock stocks....but also the Fox products etc.....makes a permanent repair that will out live any of us for sure......this stock had three hairline cracks on the right side.....

Beautiful finish. Is it a Fox? My inletting cutouts are a little different shape.

These pins and glass are for prevention. Also painted the wood with super glue which turns the wood much darker.

2holer:

Yes, that gun above is a Fox Sterlingworth...1923.....12 ga....your inletting cutouts are different probably because your gun is a Savage built gun from 1937 if I read what you posted correctly.....Savage made many changes after they bought out Fox.....

Here's an LC that I stripped, pinned, glassed and refinished....I usually put three horizontal pins in each stock, one front, middle and rear....makes for a very firm combo.......1914 12 ga. Trap Grade. I cover the pinning holes with sawdust when the epoxy is still soft...then sand, stain etc. after curing.....

Outstanding work. You should be pleased with yourself!!!

I'm struggling with a stock I was going to peg but that staple looks very interesting. That might be just the thing to solve one of my problems.

Beautiful Elsie. Did you recut the checkering? What kind of stain to get the red tint?

*2holer:

No, I did not have the L.C. checkering recut on the one pictured above or the one pictured below ....the stain I use for all my stocks is MinWax #225 Red Mahogany.....it allows me to adjust the color up or down depending on the gun I am working on....I like that flexibility..........

On the old Sterlingworth stock above (customer's gun), I did have the checkering recut as requested.....

*Pooch:

Thank you...


Here's a Field Grade L.C., same process....

Nice. That CC on the sideplate is rather unique in the pattern.

How would you go 'down' on the stain; rub it with min. spts.?

Great work. I use the Minwax dark walnut quite a bit and also like their "gunstock" color. That red mahogany color looks great too.

Here's a '22 16 I refinished using one part Birchwood Casey Rusty walnut and two parts BC Walnut. It is water based.



I assume the Minwax is oil based stain. If you get it too dark do you rub it with min. spts. to lighten?

*2holer:

Your stock work looks very nice...!...

I had sent you a PM, but I guess you didn't see it...?.....With MinWax it is very easy to lighten the stained wood if you wish, or to darken with more stain if desired....I use acetone to lighten as needed.....Yes MinWax is an oil based stain....

I've been using MinWax for many years and like the finish and colors it produces.

*Mark, thanks, I have also used the 'Dark Walnut' stain that you mentioned above, especially on some older rifles which had that color.....after curing, I steel wool with 0000 and then add the final satin or gloss clear coat finish, whichever the customer or I want, depending on who's gun it is......of course the final carnuba waxing is intensive depending on the desired final finish....

Here's a few I did with different color variations as required.....As with all stains the color changes with the light conditions......i.e. indoor light vs. outdoor natural light, photo light and so on.........

Winchester 38-55...MinWax Red Mahogany....

Early Fox A Grade MinWax Red Mahogany.....

Top gun is a 16 Ga. L.C. with MinWax Dark Walnut....
Bottom gun is a 16 ga Sterly with MinWax Red Mahogany....

L.C. Smith 16 bore hammer gun with MinWax Red Mahogany....

Same 16 hammer gun, different light....

Thank you

And not for the 1st time... A late 1940's Husqvarna M51.



Pete

Should you expect anything less from low grade wood ill fitted on cheaply made low grade guns shot with heavy loads ?

j0e, would the above description apply to this gun? Mike