good morning all, I am new to this forum and would like to ask aquestion which may help me in the near future. I plan on ordering a new H&H double Royal in late March/early April. I have supplied all the requirements I CAN THINK OF to Patrick at Holland, which I have listed below. As a forum can any of you out there think of anything I have missed which is a necessary spec ? Below is current specs

Royal Double Rifle in .375 RIMMED H&H

hand detachable locks

24" barrels

exhibition walnut BUT only as far as wood is still structuraly sound for purpose

iron sights, 50 yds and 100yds but also rear aperture that folds down into rib

Hollands proprietary scope mount

steel grip cap and skeleton butt plate, case hardened as per locks . also inner piece of lock case hardened (forgot the name, think it's bridle), the rest gold plated)

beavertail foregrip, stock to my measurements

sling swivels

fine rose and scroll engraved around edge of locks, for about 1 cm, leaving a plain piece of case hardened steel in the middle, H&H name in banner or other style to be decided, side clips

regulated for above cartridge loaded with Woodleigh 300 grain solids to shoot together, 1" high at 100 yds

checkering around entire hand grip and foreend at 24 LPI, palm swell in pistol grip

motor case to be made in hippo hide by Roland Lane

scope to be decided

anything I have missed, thanks in advance, Mike Bailey

Mike,

I think you would be a lot happier with a leather covered pad than a skeleton butt plate for two reasons. 1) Recoil and 2) less likely to get damaged than the bare stock on a trip to Africa. Scope should be on detachable mounts. You will also want a metal travel case for the airline gorillas to deal with. JMO from a few trips to Africa.

Jim

Thanks Jim,the metal case is already on the list, I usually wear a PACE recoil pad so that softens the recoil a lot and I like "all butt skeleton plates" as recoil pads always look scruffy to me. Scope will be on the H&H detachable mount and will be a 1.5-5 X 24 of a make to be determined though I am leaning towards a Leupld VXIII since I cant tell the optical difference between that and a Schmidt and Bender at 3 times the price !

Mike,

Why did you select .375 flanged? Why not one of the larger nitros; .470, .500, etc? Is this to be a plains game gun?

Phil

I plan to shoot a buffalo with it Phil but other than that it will be an "all around gun" used here in Spain on wild boar, maybe in Australia on a water buff. I am not a big individual, 155lbs ish, I tried a .470 Nitro and while it isn't uncomfortable it span me around about 45 degrees. No way could I get off a quick second shot with one and the 11.5lbs weight is a lot to lug around all day. I chose flanged because I have yet to read of any experienced hunter who had not had problems with belted ammo in double rifles, rgds, Mike

Mike I can't see spending that kind of money on a double rifle and then squabbling over a few bucks for a scope.

Mike,

I agree that there is a jump in recoil from .375 to .416, and another jump from .416 to .470... After I shoot the larger bores, the .375 seems to be mild. Kreighof has a .416/500, that I assume is flanged and based on the .500NE. It seems that smaller bore doubles, with the exception of unique examples, bring a diminished price, upon resale.

Phil

Ref price of scope i have never read of anything but praise for Leupold. I bought a Leica 1.75-5 X 40 ages ago, lovely scope, it is now on a Volquartsen .22 I have but I found out a few years later that Leica had never actually made rifle scopes, Leupold had made them for Leica under license. You are right, it would be utterly daft to stick a cheap scope on a fine double but I cannot see the difference in quality between the two though I will check this in 2 years time when the rifle is ready, rgds, Mike

sorry, ref resale value, agree .470 Nitro fetch a premium but for the last 5 years or so I have been looking to buy assets I can enjoy and use but that don't collapse in value. After I have been 6 feet under for a few months if the kids aren't keen on shooting they can auction the contents of the gun safe and stick some money down on a place of their own. A shroud has no pockets

I'd at least consider the 9.3x74R. I don't know a lot about it, but sounds like a great cartridge.

I might also go with a bit less fancy wood - exhibition grade looks nice but somehow inappropriate to me. I think that probably makes me the odd duck in this flock though.

Last, I think the suggestion and rational behind the leather recoil pad vs skeleton plate was a great point. I'd worry more about gun damage than recoil, but think the suggestion was spot on.

Oh! One more thing. I also would ask about one of those ever so sweet pop up tang sight that fold down flush into the tang when not in use. It would be so nice for longish shots should they be necessary. And if they could do it, and even if they can't, I'd avoid the scope thing like a plague. But that's just me.

Brent

Most of what I see is strictly personal preference I suppose.

.375 Flanged Magnum sounds like a good choice for your needs. I'd recommend that you specify regulation with current Kynoch rather than Romey. Holland uses both. I had a really nasty experience with the Romey in a double, and have heard of others. I'll never trust it again.

26" barrels on a double rifle are already really short. Nothing is gained in handling by going shorter, and velocity is lost.

One standing for 50 and one folding for 100 for a .375 Magnum strikes me as odd. I use 100 and 200 on doubles chambered for cartridges that don't shoot as flat and really like that combination. I've never found a need for a 50 yard leaf. 100 and 200 is ideal for a .375.

I vastly prefer the claw to Holland's proprietary mount. I know, it ain't Holland, but if you're going to hunt with it.....you're already departing from tradition with the palm swell anyway.

You'll probably get away with the beavertail on a .375, but why take the chance on something you're going to use on dangerous game? A failed solder joint on the fore-end loop leaves you with a club, and that's more common with beavertails on DRs. On a double rifle, if a beavertail is protecting your fingers from the hot barrels, you're not holding it correctly anyway.

Congratulations on your new rifle. I'm sure you're excited. Patrick seems like a nice guy. I'll bet HE'S happy.

I though the African hunting laws prevented the use of any caliber under .400 for dangerous game(buffalo?). IMO: The 470 Nitro is the best bet from an investment perspective.
Jim

Mike, I would go with a leather covered recoil pad, and I didn't see anything in your list about triggers: single or double.

Enjoy the gun!

Triggers! How could I have missed that? I would opt for double triggers, if only I were the person doing the ordering (and owning)...

This will be quite a gun indeed. I envy you a bunch...


Brent

PS. I'd go with side clips myself.

Good discussion.

I like the 9.3x74R for an all-round medium bore too. It is actually legal for dangerous game in most countries based on ballistic performance. You do need to check beforehand on this. Read Kevin Robertson's "The Perfect Shot", he loads his 375s down to 9.3 velocity and has great things to say about it. It actully has better sectional density than the .375 and with solids, is even adequite for elephant (no way a stopper, however). What are the advantages? Lots of good ammo available, a very good cartridge for Africa, and elsewhere and a joy to shoot. Double triggers go without saying.

I would have full coverage engraving if you can afford it. The American-style "negative space, less is more" coverage falls short in the marketplace and aesthically, IMHO. On the other hand, it's your gun; have fun.

C. K.

Kofoed,

You mention that there are a number of loads for .375. Did you mean .375 H&H or .375 flanged?

Phil

Dear 400 Nitro, can you explain to me the problem of a semi beavertail fore end ? That has me a little worried. Ref the iron sights I am planning one folding leaf that is 2" high at 100 yds and a rear ghost ring aperture that can fold down that is spot on at 50 yds. I have seen a 1950's Purdey .400/.360 (I think that was the calibre) that had one of these and it was spot on. Many thanks for all the input, rgds,Mike Bailey

Mike,

The weight of the beavertail forend is a lot more than the splinter. If the forend lug or the locking mechanisim is under enginered(engineered for a splinter), the forend is likely to part company with the barrels. Stories attesting to these events are posted about twice a year. I would opt for the splinter. You're never going to shoot the gun to the point that you'd require a beavertail. We hope. BTW if the forend fails extraction and ejection would be a problem. Not to mention the problem of the gun coming apart upon opening.

Someome else pointed out double triggers, and I agree. But, I've not read anything about ejectors vs. extractors. The ideal gun would have both with a selector switch. Alas, not many are designed this way. If I had to choose, I'd choose ejectors. They should be faster for reloads. They're more complex. But, if they fail, they should become extractors.

Phil

Mike,

What a great dilemna, how to order your H&H DR. For a rear sight I would consider a standing at 100yds. and a folding at 200yds. Add a foresight with a flip-up high vis bead. The addition of the foresight (aka. jungle sight) gives great visibility at short yardage and because of the different profile can be regulated to 50yds. if you wish.

Now, considering that I am spending your money, I would make sure that the gun had disc-set strikers and articulated front trigger (may be standard on a Royal?). I'd add an extended top tang, the most elegant of all DR appointments and a shadow cheek piece. Lastly I would have turn screws and reloading tools added to the case. The last is really useless but would make it somewhat unique should you ever decide to part with it. See, I told you I was spending your money not mine.

A new gun is going to collapse in value. You're better off buying a used one and then having it restocked and fitted to you.

The only way your kids are going to make money on the guns is if they hold on to it for 50 years. Even then, they would be better off with a nice index fund.

You're H&H is going to come back from Africa as a $75,000 (US) rife - at the most. And it won't be as nice as an older one, either.

Here's one that you can get a much better deal on:

http://www.rbsiii.com/collection/rifles/H&H_375flanged/H&H_375flanged.htm



OWD

That's a left-handed rifle. Look at the triggers and guard bow beading.

Great eye Mr. Hughes! I sure missed that and was thinking this might be a great deal...not for this avowed right hander!

Jim

If that's a lefty's gun, why is the checkering on the left side of the top lever and not the right?

Pretty nice gun either way, but what is Number 1 like I wonder?

Brent

Doesn't it say cheek piece about the nineth line down?
If it was a lefty wouldn't you see the cheek piece on the stock?

Hey! I'm a lefty, thats why I got interested in doubles in the first place! I can't find a price on the used H&H on the site. What is the price?

I think it's a right handed gun. You can see the cheek piece lifting off on the left side of the stock in this picture:

Mike:

What Phil said. I'll add that the way a beavertail is usually used only exacerbates the weight issue.

The fore-end is not a handle. A double rifle should be fired with the leading hand grasping the barrels, not the fore-end, with the fingers wrapped around the topside enough to ensure that the barrels do not kick out of the hand. The extra girth of a beavertail makes the correct grip more difficult. When the beavertail is grasped in the usual manner that protects the fingers from hot steel, the result is that the leading hand is pulling down on the fore-end at the same time that the barrels jerk skyward in the recoil arc. The extra stress that this, plus the extra weight, puts on the lug makes failure more likely.

I'm not suggesting that this failure is common, but it does happen. If it happens with a 12 bore game gun, who cares? With a double rifle that will be used on dangerous game, you want failsafe reliability and try to eliminate the things that can fail at the worst time and in the worst place. You might be fine at .375 recoil levels, but I wouldn't set it up that way. While it's true that quite a number of current makers offer beavertails on large caliber double rifles, keep in mind that they do so because that's what the comsumers want, not because it's a good idea.

My .400/.360 Purdey has one standing leaf for 100, and two folding for 200 and 300. I've always found this perfect. I shoot smaller groups blindfolded than I do with a ghost ring, so I can't help you there.

The recommendation for the 9.3X74R is usually a good one. The difference between it and the .375 Flanged Magnum isn't much, and ammunition and components are a lot easier to find. However, the .375 is a slightly lower pressure round than the 9.3, and being a Holland caliber, it will have substantially better resale than the same rifle in 9.3.

The Holland posted in the link has reversed triggers, a rolled left edge guard, and was originally stocked with cast on. It is an original left handed gun. Yeah, the top lever operates in the usual direction. Lots of lefties are accustomed to using right handed doubles, are used to the usual right-swinging top lever, and don't want it reversed.

Actually no, it isn't there. I've seen numerous additional photos of this particular gun, and there is no cheek piece. It's an original left handed gun.

The lever always works the same direction. Can't ever tell about cast from pix. Semi-beavertail are just fine for double rifles, maybe prefered, it's the extra pressure from the hand-hold that has been a problem with - mostly - shotguns restocked from splinter to beavertail. Beavertail increases control which is a definately a good factor for a rifle. I'm quite sure Holland has grown beyond the consideration of loop strength with their doubles. The trigger guard tells me this rifle was built for a lefty.
I'd order a semi-beavertail, if I was ordering, but I'd look for a great used gun first. And this is a very nice one!

many thanks to all of you who have supplied information here. Looks like I will go with a splinter fore-end. afew of you have suggested I go seconh hand and I realise that makes more sense economically but there are lots of small things I want done my way e.g. engraving etc etc. I have already asked for an extended top tang and a lower tang down to the pistol grip. One gentleman mentioned disc set strikers. Can someone enlighten me as to what there are exactly and how they will be an improvement on what the Royal comes as standard with. I won't need turnscrews I think as I am going with pinless locks. Also why go for an articulated front trigger ? many thanks again to all for the info, rgds, Mike Bailey

"The lever always works the same direction."

Not true. I've seen a couple English sidelocks with the lever reversed.

Also, there was a guy here a few weeks ago who had a Scott with a reversed lever.

OWD

The pictures of the (vy nice!) 1925 Holland DR show disk set strikers very well in the sixth photo from the top. Having this set up makes it much simpler to replace a damaged/broken firing pin.

I find it interesting on the southpaw 1925 rifle that, while it has the reversed triggers and left rolled guard, the only clue to its original orientation in the Holland spec sheet is the cast measurements - all cast-on. I would have thought they'd have noted "left hand" specifically. And the cheek piece has disappeared...

Articulated front trigger [allows trigger to fold forward] takes out most of the pinch your finger might receive when firing the rear trigger, as the front trigger can slam back into your finger during the heavy recoil.

400 - I'll take your word for it, but it sure looks like something is going on over on the left-hand side.

One would think that if it was a lefty that would be mentioned up front and center. Odd.

I take that back - I copied it into a photo editor and played with it. There is some weird shadow and the background cloth is folded odd. May not be anything at all.

Beautiful gun.

Brent

Mike:

Royal double rifles come standard with the Baker extended top tang. Except for the old Scott built stuff, I've never seen a Holland sidelock DR that didn't have it. Same for disc set strikers. I imagine that they currently come standard with the articulated trigger, although you don't need it. Hold the gun properly and your trigger finger won't get smacked when firing the left. In 20 years of DR shooting, I've never had that happen, and I've never owned one with an articulated trigger.

I had an 1880's Scott SLNE with a backwards lever. Triggers also appeared oriented for a lefty, although it was not cast that way (but stock may have been replaced), nor did it fire left barrel first. Pushing the lever to the L, rather than pulling it to the R, was not a hard thing to get used to.

This isn't true. Doubles custom built for southpaws with left swinging top levers aren't all that unusual. A while back I handled a nice pair of Dumoulin DRs, .470 and .375, built for a left handed shooter. A good friend, who is a southpaw, wanted them, but couldn't get past the left-swinging top levers.



I wasn't relying on photos. The gun is stocked with cast-on.



None of this is true. Steven, rumour has it that you're a pretty sharp shotgun guy, but you have a lot to learn about double rifles.

I'd have to say .400 Nitro that from some of the pictures and comments I've seen and heard, he ( SDH ) does some pretty fine rifle work as well. Anyway I have emailed Hollands ref your semi beavertail comments and am waiting to see what Patrick comes back with. I tested a .375 at their rifle range with a semi beaver and much preferred it to the .470 I also tried with a splinter. By the way neither guns had articulated triggers and I fired 4 rounds from the .470 and about 15 from the .375. The only time I did get stung was once when I left my thumb on the safety on the .375. rgds, Mike Bailey

Conventional rifles and double rifles are very distant relatives.

The lug issue with beavertails in shotguns is usually encountered in high volume shooting and seems to be a function of cycles. With heavy double rifles, the problem is raw recoil. Spend some time looking at double rifles in the repair shops. I've seen enough sheared lugs with beavertail fore-ends to not want such on one of mine.

I have to agree with 400NE. When firing a double rifle the leading hand should encompass the forend and grasp the barrels. The trick is not to obscure the rib and sights. Its not like shooting off a standing or seated rest. However, a rest is useful for regulation. But even with the rest the regulator will grasp the barrels and rest his arm. The final elevation on the sights needs to be accomplished while standing and grasping the barrels. Its kinda like the difference between a sling and no sling on a bolt rifle.

Phil

Here is another used gun option:

http://213.219.62.57/asp/fullCatalogue.asp?salelot=1007++++1203+&refno=++++5898&saletype=

For whatever it's worth. The overwhelming majority of our new rifles are ordered with detachable locks in .470 or .500 calibres with an occasional .375 H&H or .577. These rifles are ordered by serious hunters and taken against dangerous game regularly.

Jim Kilday
Westley Richards USA

Mike,
There is some very good information in this thread.

Since we are spending your progeny's inheritance why not order a second set of barrels. A set in the 400 NE class say .470,regulated at 50 meters and a 9.3's or .375 Holland regulated at 100 m. Practice with the 9.3 -.375 ........and just enough with the .470 to see where they are shooting.
If a scope is a -necessity- on the .375 Holland : a S & B Zenith 1.1–4 x 24 and claw mounts.

Trust me you will not feel the recoil when the Buff is in your sights and you squeeze the trigger on the .400 NE.

To the best of my knowledge, everywhere in Africa where caliber minimums are enforced the, .375 H&H is the legal minimum.

Wish I had those enviable decisions to ponder.
Good luck with your endeavor.

Good Shooting
T.C.

Many thanks again to everyone who gave me feedback. I did contact Holland ref. the Beavertail fore-end and was told that if it was properly fitted at the beginning and the wood was sound the problem mentioned does not and cannot occur on one of their doubles. However I will be going with a splinter for the simple reason they want about $3900 extra for the beavertail, It wasn't that much more comfortable !!! best regards, Mike Bailey

well the deposit went today, now I have a long wait ! thanks again for the advice, rgds, Mike Bailey

Why skimp over $3900