Caveat Emptor, Re Russ Gould of Canby , Oregon, operating as Network Retailing LLC, doublegunhq, bigfivehq, etc.

I have intended to post this for a long time but these events occurred during our deer season, then we had a death in our immediate family, then Christmas, and other problems. Today I see where Mr. Gould has posted a warning on the Doublegunbbs concerning someone that he feels treated him unfairly. This reminds me that I am overdue in warning others as to how I was treated in a transaction with Russ Gould.
In late October of last year, Mr. Gould had advertised on his website, a used Americase, 2 takedown gun case, with Orvis label, which he described as “excellent condition apart from one rub mark in one barrel compartment”. On October 27, I contacted him by telephone, and agreed to purchase the case at the advertised price of $295 plus $29 shipping costs. On Monday, November 6, Mr. Gould sent me an e-mail which read “I have your payment Ron. Will attend to this first Mon”. However, Russ Gould did NOT ship the case to me on Monday as he promised. Instead, without consulting me, he used the case which was now legally, morally, and ethically, mine, as a shipping container in which to ship two Westley Richards guns to a customer in California. He probably figured that I would not find this out, except that on Friday, Nov 10, I asked him to confirm that the case had been shipped and to supply a UPS tracking number in case I needed to trace the shipment. His response was “The situation is a little complicated. I shipped a pair of WR 16 ga guns to a customer in CA in that case with a forwarding label addressed to you. He got the guns yesterday so your case should be on its way to you today”. In fact, that case did not leave CA until Monday, exactly a week after Mr. Gould was to have shipped it to me.
When the case finally arrived here, it had been wrapped only in a single layer of brown Kraft paper which was torn to shreds. It had been dropped at least twice, on two of its corners which were battered and full of concrete particles. The rub mark was a half inch square in which the felt lining was completely gone, exposing bare aluminum. There were six other tears in the felt lining, ranging from minor up to two which were ¾” three-cornered tears. There were no keys for the two keyed locks. At some time, the combination lock had been jimmied and it was now not possible to reset the combination. I sent Mr. Gould an e-mail detailing these problems, advising him that I would need to have the case relined, and asking if he would help defray my costs. His only offer was: “Please take a $25 credit toward any future purchase for the inconvenience”. I would have immediately returned the case for a full refund, but I had paid a $97 customs and brokerage fee which was non-refundable. To say that I was extremely pi$$ed off is an understatement and I let Russ Gould know that in no uncertain terms.
Here is some of Russ’s correspondence with me:
1) “I feel that the condition of the case is commensurate with the price. I can’t spend much time on a $300 item. I manage around 2000 items and I spend a lot more time detailing the high dollar stuff than I do on used accessories.
2) “I stand by my description of the case as being in excellent condition. And no, I don’t believe your exaggerated criticism of the case, I think you are just mad as a snake because of the delivery delay and are trying to get something for nothing. I offered you more than TWICE the amount you paid for shipping to settle that”. So, first of all I am a liar. Then I’m looking for something for nothing. Then, the $25 which he offered is more than TWICE the $29 which I paid for shipping. Strange math that Russ uses.
3) “You got a good deal at half the price of a new case”. This is an Americase model 3011. The price of a new one, on their website today, is $421.12. Again, interesting math that Russ uses, where $295 is half of $421!!
4) “I suggest you take the $25 and get on with life”
5) When I told Mr. Gould that I intended to post this caveat, he told me “And be careful what you say, you may be hearing from my brother who is a lawyer in Toronto if you cross the line.” I guess that Mr. Gould does not understand that even in today’s litigious society, one cannot be sued for speaking the truth.



I telephoned Americase in Texas. They are SUPER people to deal with. They were helpful, polite, and certainly are service-oriented. I highly recommend them. They sold me two new keys, a new combination lock, and enough green felt to reline the case two or three times. I have since gutted and relined the case myself, so I learned two things from this:
A) How to line a case. B) Have no further dealings with Russell Gould.
P.S.: Anything shown above in quotation marks is a direct, verbatim quote, not a paraphrase. I have saved all correspondence in this case as proof of what transpired.

Some people must think that others won't heed your advice. Thanks for the heads up , I won't forget. Ken

Ron, Thanks for the heads up. I will be sure to add him to my list of Used Car Salesmen.

LOL....the gall he must have to use a case he has already sold to ship a gun to someone else. I'm glad I didn't buy my house from him or there might still be some other people living in it.

Here's a clue, Russ - the law, and general morality, does not differentiate between a $300 sale and a $3,000,000 sale. If an item does not sell for enough to make it worth your while to behave like a big boy, don't sell it.

As for your troubles with that guy in Kentucky, I felt sorry for you until now, but here's what I would like you to do. Print the saying below, blow it up until it completely covers your forehead, then go have it tattoo'd, well, on your forehead.

"What goes around comes around"

Ron, you're in the clear on this one re defamation, libel etc but persons are sued successfully all the time for telling the truth. There are some things you can't say in certain circumstances about other persons, however true.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again - I've never met such a bunch of bed-wetting ninnies as the gun crowd when it comes to getting their feelings hurt. What kind of wuss threatens to sue someone? What ever happened to the good old public ass-kicking or even a shoot-off?

I'll bet your average baseball fan, NASCAR fan, or concert flautist would have more backbone.

Somehow the thought of some argyle-sock, sweater vest wearing, nose-hair growing, pipe-smoking old ninny suing someone for slander makes me want to hand in all my guns and never admit I ever owned a gun.


Dirty Harry has two bullets left. He's faced with three people - Hitler, Hillary Clinton and a slander-suit happy old ninny.

Who does he shoot? The ninny, twice.

Ron Vella, I'm sorry to read your post regarding Russ Gould. You've made your case very well. If there is anything further to the matter, I hope Doublegun HQ will respond. I have respected your posts on this forum since I've been keeping up with it, but Doublegun HQ has also been of value in his posts. You and he both are respected members of this forum. Perhaps if you were to post the expense you incurred with Americase in getting things staightened out maybe Russ would be willing to make that expense good. Just a thought...Geo

You mean like this. guy who is not going to take it.

Here is a picture of the case I sold to Mr. Vella.

http://networkretailing.com/jsarrietapr1.jpg

Yes, it's true when I shipped the case, I shipped it via a customer in CA who bought the pair of WR guns from me. This was not very good judgment on my part but I needed a way to get that pair of guns to CA and I didn't have another double case. This did cause a delay, longer than I thought it would, but in any event our terms of sale state the item will be shipped within 10 days of the order being received and I believe we complied with this. In any case, I did apologize to Mr. Vella for that and offered him a store credit for the delay as a goodwill gesture.

From the above description, you would think I shipped Mr. Vella a piece of junk. The picture suggests otherwise. I still believe my description of the case was accurate and my customer in CA concurred with me when I forwarded him Mr. Vella's original emails to me noting multiple tears in the lining etc. I thought perhaps the case had been damaged en route but that was not the case. The guns were cushioned in bubble wrap when I shipped them in this case to CA. So it's highly unlikely that any damage occurred en route.

There was a patch of felt that was worn through in one of the compartments from a receiver rubbing against the felt. That was clearly stated in my description. There may have been some very small imperfections in the felt elsewhere but neither I nor my customer in CA noted any such tears. It was a very nice case when it left here.

Since there was such a large discrepancy between Mr. Vella's description of the case and my and my customer's recollection of it, I admit I didn't believe him, and I still don't. He never sent me a picture of the damage to the interior of the case. I challenge him to post one here. He never informed me of the shipping damage to the exterior of the case, this is the first information I have had regarding that. And if it were damaged in transit, it was insured and I would have been willing to submit a claim to UPS for the exterior damage. (Why would I not be, I paid the insurance.) I could not have claimed interior damage (and UPS would surely not have paid for it); in any case I don't see how there could have been any interior damage in transit as the guns were bubble wrapped from here to CA and then the case was empty from CA to Canada.

I offered to refund Mr. Vella"s money but he refused. Anything we sell can be returned for any reason or no reason, for a refund, except brand new items which can only be returned if we ship the wrong item. (He also refused my offer of a store credit..perhaps a clue to his temperament).

Regarding the combination, it's possible it was jammed. I got it set to 0000 and that's the way I shipped it. I opened and closed it several times but I never reset it. However, given the rather large credibility issue here, and the fact that he brought the combination lock up in his second or third tirade, I frankly put this down to the customer being mad at me for the delay.

So, I sincerely believe that what we have here is a combination of a guy who is a. a perfectionist; b. who has a very hot temperament; and c. who is vindictive.

The tone of Mr. Vella's emails to me was uniformly condescending and vitriolic. I believe I kept a civil tone in all me replies to him, regardless.

Perhaps my customer in CA will read this and add his two cents worth. I don't want to disclose his name without his consent.

Oh My!!! I have bought several excellent guns from Russ. I found him extremely easy to deal with, and very accurate in his discription of the guns and accessories. I shot one of the double rifles today and it was ever more accurate that his sale comments stated.

I have found him extremely fair, easy to deal with, and extremely informative. I stand behind him.
Captain John Alfred Svensson

Just offer to refund Mr. Vella's money and you will be way ahead. You are behind many multiples of the $300 or so we're talking about here now. As it stands now, I wouldn't purchase anything from you. I don't know you or him from Adam but like many, I generally think that if there is smoke......there is fire. Any good business man knows exactly what I'm talking about here...........refund!......its the only right answer.

Aloha,

Bob

I have read this post with great interest as it shows how far we have come from the old days of "the customer is always right." Here the customer who purchased this case was right. The seller was wrong (and to his credit admits this).

The seller admittedly should not have used the recently sold case to ship a gun. However, to admit this wrong and apologize, the seller has only done half the right thing.

Using the case he sold to one customer to ship another's gun was more than bad judgment (but not quite theft because there was no intent to permanently deprive the customer of the item). Once that case left the seller to another customer's hands, the seller no longer controlled the condition, repacking of the case for shipment or the timing of the shipment to the rightful owner. The seller assumed the risk that the case would be damaged in transit or improperly shipped by the "middle man." The middle man will likely swear the case was just like the seller said it was as well as swear that he packed it and shipped it properly...it is in both the seller's and the middle man's best interest to do so (self serving statements).

The seller here chooses to believe the middle man over the customer of the case as if he (the seller) was the person entitled to judge by virtue of the fact that he now has the customer's money.

The seller to admit to making a mistake, apologize and to only offer a refund or paltry ($25) store credit wasn't nearly enough here. A reputable merchant would have not only apologized and admitted the mistake, but would have believed the customer and offered the customer a full refund of not only the purchase price but also all of the customer's out of pocket expenses (shipping charges and customs he paid).

Everyone makes mistakes and I am not suggesting that members of the forum were wrong to do business with this seller, or would be wrong to do business with him in the future. This was probably just a freak situation where the seller made a bad decision and like many of us, we are at our worst when we have done someone wrong. To err is human.

The seller here should call the buyer and the two of them should talk (honorable man to honorable man) and the seller needs to be forgiven and the buyer needs to forgive (for everything)---and if the seller would simply ask the buyer "what can I do to make this right with you" and do as the customer asked, I would expect we would all be witness to a happy resolution.

If the seller doesn't do this and soon, I suspect we will see this discussion degrade.

You know, normally I bend over backwards to satisfy a customer. I had a case a few years back where I am convinced the customer dropped a gun while shaking it out of the box. He returned it because it had a chipped toe, the piece was in the box. It wasn't chipped when I (personally) packed it, in bubble wrap. I swallowed that. I had another where I shipped a guy a brand new set of Valmet 412 bbls. Normally I insist on fitting these, it's included in the price, but this guy wanted his in a BIG hurry as he was going hunting the next weekend and I was in Africa at the time so out they went. THREE WEEKS LATER he tells me the forend won't stay on the gun. I took them back and replaced them with a brand new pair. The forend lug had been filed down to a nub. On these bbls, if you file in the wrong places that's what you get. I think this guy, in a big hurry to go hunting, tried to fit these bbls himself. Needless to say, the bbls are ruined. But I ate that and he got a brand new set of SIC bbls that I fitted to his receiver.

It's not in my interest to misrepresent items as I get hit for 3% on credit card payments both ways when the item comes back. Even if someone pays by check, it's a pain to deal with refunds. In this case, he did pay by MO but my bank still hit me up for a charge since it was drawn on a Canadian institution. So I am careful about my descriptions and I typically get less than 5 returns a year. I got two last year, I think. I had a Parker 16 ga that had a weak toplever spring. I took it back, refunded the guy his money, replaced the spring, and sold it the next week to a guy who loves it. The other one, ironically, was the pair of WR 16 ga guns. They were a tad loose with the forends off, and I had Keith attend to that. That customer bought another gun from me instead.

But this gentleman's claims were so astounding and his tone was so offensive from the getgo that I just couldn't take him seriously. It's as if I shipped someone a sidelock and they told me that it was a boxlock. Read the posts again Bob and look at the picture. He got a very nice high quality case for $295. It wasn't good enough for him though. I offered to refund his money. He declined. I offered him a store credit anyway, letting him keep the case, just to pacify him. He told me to shove that too. And every email contained a new list of things that were wrong with it. Even now, six months later, he is still adding to the pile. And you know what, for all his allegations, he NEVER sent me a picture of any of the multitude of defects. Not one.

Here's what I think. He wanted this case to be perfect. Probably wanted to put his perfect pair of shotguns in it. He's a gunsmith so no doubt his guns are very nice. But it had a worn spot in one compartment, he knew that when he bought it because the description said as much. So he thought if he threw a big enough tantrum, I would pay to reline his case and viola, he would have a new case for the price of a used one. The fact that it arrived in Eastern Canada having shipping from the Pacific NW (yes, admittedly via San Francisco, two days from here by UPS) two weeks after his check arrived just gave him more ammo to fire at me. Why he is still firing is a mystery to me. That battle is over.

Are you saying I should refund his money and let him keep the case? I am sorry, no business does that. In cases where I have truly screwed up, I will refund the shipping as well even though our terms of sale say we refund the price of the item in the event of a return. But this wasn't one of those.

Every two years or so, I come across someone I call "the customer from hell". These CFH folks know the price of everything and the value of nothing. They are mad at the world and they are mad at themselves. If a transaction doesn't go according to their personal fantasy, they start a war, and if they don't get their own way, they get madder than hell. I don't let them bully me. Frankly, those are the kind of folks I would rather never see again so I don't fall for their tantrums and that's usually that. Not Mr. Vella though, he's going to take this $295 case to his grave with him. And it will be an early one if he keeps stacking this stuff up in his brain.

The CFH prior to Mr. Vella had me buy a Weatherby Orion III for him, as well as a Daly semi-auto. This was about 5 years ago. I ordered them specifically for him, from Bill Hicks. Got him a great deal. He had me cut the factory seals on the box of the Orion to take a picture of the wood before I shipped it. He got the guns, looked at them at his dealer's premises, took them home, then a couple of days later called me and told me that the Orion was a used gun and that he wanted to return it. He said the gun was still at his FFL. When I called his transfer FFL, he said the customer looked at the wood and didn't think it was nice enough. But he took the guns home anyway. Needless to say, I let this guy fume and fizzle but I didn't take the gun back.

We stand behind what we sell. On used items, if you don't like it, return it for any reason or no reason and you get your money back. On new items, make sure you want what you order because we don't take those back unless we shipped you the wrong item (and this has never happened. New guns are like cars...once you unpack them and handle them, they aren't new any longer. If new items are defective, they go to the manufacturer. But if you decide to keep the item, then we are done at that point.

doublgunhq,
Regardless of how much he paid for the case it was his the moment you received the money and not to be used for shipping another customers goods. You were wrong morally if not legally to use it in said fashion.

To dghq you do not know the condition he received it in. All that you know is how it left your place. Photos of it in the condition it arrived in would kill all of the "I'm right you're wrong" stuff. Then the seller would know that the customer is right and that the damage was caused after his shipment of the case. Or that the seller is correct and it didn't arrive with the damage as stated. Not that its worth anything but, IMO the seller is still responsible for this shipment damage. If he packaged it correctly on his end and shipped it directly to the customer it most likely would have arrived in good shape.

Russ,

You screwed the pooch, by the numbers and you know it. Deny it all that you want, it just makes it worse for your reputation and you can not deny that you made a mistake. So by not refunding all the money, including duties, and shipping your reputation is justly damaged. Did you expect him to pay near a hundred dollars to look at the case? It got there as damaged goods because you did not pack it properly and send it directly to him.

The packaging was so bad that no claim against the shipper could be made. This is a shippers mistake that sounds like was mostly the fault of the first reciever but you are responsible for his actions. You sent the case to him so he is you problem if he did not take care of the package. If you had packaged the case only in paper as described then it is still your error. A heavy case like that need several layers of cardboard to protect it in shipping.

It is not the buyers fault that the item was diverted to another person and then arrived damaged. You had an obligation to ship it directly to him and make sure it arrived undamaged by packing it properly. You did neither, did you? You did not want to loose any money because of your mistake but your loss now will be many times greater because you have damaged your own reputation.

It is not the buyers fault for posting the facts here. And the basic facts are not really in dispute. You can try to split hairs about weither all the faults are that bad, but the major fault is yours for not getting a paid in full item to the buyer in as described shape. You did not commit fraud, like you are posting about the KY seller you got screwed by, but you also did not deliver the goods and then did not deal with it like a man and bite the bullet.

I would not know you if I saw you and suspect that as a rule you are a decent person and seller but I will not be very interested in any guns that you have for sale. This transaction does not speak well for your actions. And your postings here will do nothing to correct the situation.

"Regardless of how much he paid for the case it was his the moment you received the money and not to be used for shipping another customers goods. You were wrong morally if not legally to use it in said fashion."

Actually, I think if you were to ask a lawyer, he would say that title passes when the inspection period lapses, or sooner if the customer says he is keeping it. And I had ten days to ship the item from the date of sale. It shipped to Canada on day 7. But I agree, it wasn't very smart of me to ship the case via CA, and I won't pull that stunt again. However, that's not the major issue here. The issue is Mr. Vella stated that the interior of the case was all torn up. It wasn't when it left here, it wasn't when it got to CA, and it wasn't when it left CA. And the case was empty between CA and Canada. (And Mr Harrell, if he had sent pictures, even ONE, to substantiate his claim, I would have taken care of it on the spot..but for all the time he has invested in this smear campaign, he has never taken the time to do that).

"And the basic facts are not really in dispute." Yes they are. Very much so.

Maybe in your mind, but not to many of the readers on the bbs. You screwed up and should let it die. The more you post here, claiming that you are right, the less inclined others will be to give you the benefit of the doubt. Let it die a natural death and this subject will be on page 4 in two days. Keep posting and it will remain near the top for a week and you will suffer in the long run.

You screwed up and are just unwilling to let it alone and nothing you post will change the fact that your shipping it to CA was a mistake, a major mistake. You may have not even seen the other internal issues but when the case arrived in less than expected shape due to poor packaging you lost all the high ground in this issue. It was shipped poorly packaged and went a route that even you would not try again. Right? Now if the CA person failed to repackage it properly you are still at fault as he was acting as your agent. And if you failed to package it properly yourself, knowing that it was going to be shipped twice after being opened once in route it is still your fault.

I find no reason to doubt the locks or keys also. A new buyer would not be expected to replace the locking system. Maybe your CA buyer damaged them. Maybe you did not notice them being damaged. But do not expect us to belive the buyer replaced them unless there were bad. That is not a logical action and the buyer seems logical in his posting.

You should have eaten the shipping both ways and the duties. It is not the buyers fault that it got there damaged. It is not his fault that you needed a case. Sometimes when you are in bussiness you have to loose a few dollars because of things that you do or mistakes you make.

Gentlemen, I have no intention of getting into a "Pi$$ing match" over this. I will say a few things. AT NO TIME did Mr. Gould offer a refund other than the $25 credit which I mentioned. My description of the damages to the case is 100% accurate and was witnessed by several people here. I did not expect "PERFECTION" as he suggests. Oh, and by the way, I still have the invoice in my files, from Americase, for the keys, lock, and felt, for fifty some odd US dollars. Would any reasonable person go to that trouble and expense to justify a lie?. Also, every single word that was exchanged between Mr. Gould and me is saved in "sent items" on my computer. "The truth shall set ye free!". And it's been 3 months, not 6 months as Mr. Gould states above. I gave my valid reasons for the delay and the fact that his posting about someone else's poor treatment of him, reminded me of my tardiness in this matter. If this were a "smear campaign", I would have been at it from the get go!

Personnally, I don't care what the purchaser said to the seller but for the seller to sell the case, accept the money and then use that case to send guns to someone else and then expect the case to be properly packed and sent on its way is rediculous and I don't care what the seller thinks is correct legally. I would have been pi$$ed off too and the 'customer from hell'. I only deal with reputable individuals and in this case (pun intended), its open and shut. -Dick

Who's right, who's wrong - who cares!
This stuff should be nixed here, and taken-up between the two.
I'd say tho, that hq's remark about people from midwest was enough to put me over.
A duel with feather dusters is in order men!

Russ - You know nothing of what the CA buyer did. You're responsible for what he did, so you've decided to trust all he says and attribute this problem to a CFH. If Ron had sent you photos of the interior tears, it would be no surprise to hear you accuse him of inflicting additional damage himself to milk you for the cost of relining to repair the "worn spot".

I care who's right and who's wrong. If it doesn't matter who's right anymore, please mail me your checkbook and credit cards along with your birth certificate and let's have some fun.

The bottom line is Russ lost all recourse when he used the case to ship someone else's guns. By giving up custody of the case to an unauthorized third party, and by deriving use from the case, he left himself wide open.

How would Russ feel if instead of delivering his new Corvette to him, his dealer told him, "Oh, I let some other guy drive it around for a week. Sit tight and he'll drop it off at your house
when he's done with it."?

How would Russ feel if he came out of the bathroom in the Honeymoon Suite of the Flamingo on his wedding night and learned his new bride had been reassigned to another room 'cause other old boy was coming down with erectile dysfunction - but there was a note that said she'd be back in the morning?

This is Grade School 101 stuff.

So GregSY, what do you think you'll learn here hmmmm?
This stuff has been going on for years at the different shooting boards.
Nothin' happens, but more bitchin', and more moanin'!
Tell me of the great lesson you'll take from this.

Lowell if you don't want to read it stay out of it.

Mike, there has been long time feuds, and bad blood over things like this. It is better left to them only.
Say, didn't you have a stand-in at one time - or am I thinking of someone else?

Lowell I don't know. What do you mean by stand-in?

Keep dancing around the issue, Gould. No way I'd look to you for any purchase.

Mike, I've seen this many times - here-there-and everywhere.
It is better not taking this public!
Oh sure, I've bitched about phone calls to Galazan's - but just in general.
These personal things are better done off-line.
Let them handled it, in their own way.
I don't take sides in he said, she said stuff.
PS, I only buy in driving distance, either to look, or take back if there is a problem.
Me knocking on the door, with the item in hand, is much more a private thing - the way it should be done!

Lowell I agree that it should be settled in private. And "we" responders will not convice whomever is in the wrong that they are in the wrong. Righteousness is on the side of the beholder so to speak. I use these things to try and make my naughty and nice list of people, to or not to, purchase from. Mistakes could be made from what is posted. Who really knows which is correct?

There isn't much to be said about this except one thing:
It's up over 590 views. There's an opinion developing that is gonna be expensive.

Actually it is an Orvis Americase model 3011. We all know that "Orvis" label is expensive. I do not know how much Orvis would sell it for, but I wouldn't doubt that it would be a lot more than the same case from Americase.

It sounds like Americase took care of you, but FWIW I'm bet Orvis would have for free (Thats one reason people might pay more for the Orvis label. It is good to hear about good customer service.

perhaps others should take lessons.

Mr. Gould has referred to me as ""a combination of a guy who is a . a perfectionist; b. who has a very hot temperament; c. who is vindictive". He says "The tone of Mr. Vella's emails was uniformly condescending and vitriolic". I have posted here my last two emails to this man. You may judge for yourself if his description of me is fair. And what I say below still stands, I am NOT looking for a refund or anything else from Mr. Gould. My only intent was to give fair warning to others. Strange how Mr. Gould felt compelled to post a caveat here about someone else, yet now is aggrieved that I should do the same about him.




----- Original Message -----
From: Ron VELLA
To: Russell Gould
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 2:57 PM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381

Mr Gould,
Your response is exactly what I anticipated. You have basically said that I am a liar, when I itemize the problems with this case. A few points:

1) A man with ANY integrity at all, would examine an item closely enough to see all of these defects before advertising it as "excellent condition".XXXXXXXXX, of course, had no interest in the condition of this case when he was the proud new owner of a WR pair!
2) You can add to the list of defects which I sent you, the fact that at some point, somebody jimmied the combination lock and the combination cannot be changed.
3) This is an Americase, model 3011, list price on a new one, on their website, is #421.12, so $295 is a looong way from half price.
4) I've already ordered new keys, a new combination lock, and 3 yards of green baize from Americase with which to have the case relined. I'll eat the cost and chalk it up to a learning experience.
5) You need not worry about me taking advantage of your generous offer of a $25 discount on my next purchase. It would be a frosty Friday in hell before I had any further dealings with you.
6) I have been a member for years of the Doublegun BBS, the Shooting Sportsman BBS, NitroExpress.com, HuntAmerica.com, COPT, and more recently Accurate Reloading. I promise you that once I have properly composed a notice, I intend to post a "Caveat Emptor" on all of these sites re Russell Gould and Network Retailing LLC.

Ronald C. Vella.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron VELLA
To: Russell Gould
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2006 5:47 PM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381

I have no interest in getting into a "pissing match" with you over this. Perhaps you didn't understand, I do not want ANYTHING from you. I am NOT looking for something for nothing! Six of my friends have examined this case since it arrived and would be pleased to attest to the veracity of my description. If you like, my brother, who has been a lawyer for 30 years, and lives 3 miles from me, would be glad to examine the case and verify my description. One last thing, mathematics must be taught differently in the RSA than it is in Canada. How else is $295 less than half of $421, and how else is $25 more than TWICE $29?

That was wOrth reading all fOur pages....lol

The hard thing about airing the laundry is that the neighbors all get to decide why and how it got the pee stains. So we're warned off Mr. DGHQ because he may or may not be a bit of a trimmer and likewise off Mr. Vella because he may or may not be a bit of trouble. Both parties' rep would benefit from a belated negotiation in which the observations made here are considered for what they're worth and a mutually-satisfactory resolution reached. I don't want to hear further from either of you until you've kissed and made up.

jack

'I have posted here my last two emails to this man.' "He never offered a refund"

Mr. Vella,

Our terms of sale allow a refund on used items. You chose not to avail yourself of that, quoting the duty you paid. I am still waiting for a picture to indicate that the case was in a condition other than the condition in which it left my premises.

When you think about it, you were out $50 and you now have a case with a perfect lining and new keys (at the time you said Americase would replace the keys for free...now you seem to be saying you had to buy new locks), and you have enough felt to recover two more cases according to your postings. It's now undoubtedly better than described. I offered to split that with you by way of a store credit of $25. You told me to shove it. I'll up that to the full $50. So your upgrade is now free, your leftover felt is now free, if you choose to avail yourself. We'll see.

BTW you sent me a very detailed email listing the defects you found when the case arrived, which I forwarded to two other persons who had seen the case in CA and they couldn't relate to your email. I won't tell you what one of them said. You made no mention of damage to the exterior of the case at that time. You also didn't mention the combination issue, that you added later. And now you are claiming that the case was dropped and had concrete embedded in it. This doesn't improve your credibility I'm afraid.

"Russell,
This case arrived here about half an hour ago, and I have just finished unwrapping and inspecting it. The case was described as "excellent condition apart from one rub mark in one bbl compartment". This is how it arrived here:

1) No keys for the two keyed locks.
2) 1/2" square piece of felt missing completely in bottom of chamber end of front bbl compartment.
3) 1/4" three-cornered tear in bottom of chamber end of front bbl compartment.
4) 1/2" ragged tear in felt on divider in front bbl compartment.
5) 1/2" ragged tear in felt on divider at rear of front action compartment.
6) 3/4" ragged tear in left end of rear bbl compartment.
7) 3/4" three-cornered tear in upper right-hand corner of lid.
8) 1/4" tear in edge of side wall in upper right-hand corner of side wall.

I would return the case immediately, but for the fact that I have just paid an additional $97.21 to UPS for Customs Brokerage Fees and GST which I cannot now recover. I would estimate that it is going to cost another $100.00 for me to have a local casemaker recover these damaged compartments. If you do not have the missing keys, I will also have to pay a locksmith to recode the two locks. Are you prepared to offset these costs? If not, what do you suggest?"



Here are some of your courteous emails to me. Had you been a little less obnoxious and hyperbolic, you might have found me a little more ready to listen to your issues:


"From: Russell Gould
To: Ron VELLA
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 12:40 PM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381


I spoke to him first thing this morning regarding this matter. He says he will do it today.

I apologize for this unconventional approach to shipping your case. The oak and leather case for the guns was at the repair guy when this gent bought the pair, and I was left without a good shipping option for the guns. In retrospect, a lapse of judgement on my part.

Regards,

Russ Gould
NetworkRetailing LLC, operator of these specialty e-commerce venues:
http://doublegunhq.com (Double Gun Headquarters), offering fine double rifles and shotguns, and superior wingshooting destinations around the world;
http://bigfivehq.com (Big Five Headquarters), offering heavy caliber rifles, accessories, and big game safaris to Africa and Argentina;
http://vh2q.com (Varmint Hunter HQ), offering varmint rifles and varmint hunting gear;
Buy with confidence, all sales are escrow sales and subject to 3 day inspection.
Sell with ease, sites are fully automated and we clear payments for you (FFL required to sell firearms).
----- Original Message -----
From: Ron VELLA
To: Russell Gould
Sent: Saturday, November 11, 2006 8:32 AM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381


Russell,
The situatiuon is more than "A little complicated". According to the UPS tracking system, your customer in California has not shipped MY, and I repeat MY case yet. I expect you to phone him TODAY, find out why he has not done so, and when he WILL ship MY case, and notify me today at this e-mail address. You received payment in full from me, a week ago yesterday. At that time, legally, morally, and certainly ethically. that case became mine and you had absolutely no right to use MY case as a bloody shipping case and to send it another 1000 miles further away from here. Had you shipped this item to me on Monday, November 6, as you promissed to do, this item would already be in Canada instead of in California. To say that I am upset and disappointed would be the understatement of the century. I expect and deserve your prompt attention to this matter!
Ron Vella.


From: Russell Gould
To: Ron VELLA
Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:14 PM
Subject: Re: Item # 2381


Hi Ron,

The situation is a little complicated. I shipped a pair of WR 16 ga guns to a customer in CA in that case, with a forwarding label addressed to you. He got the guns yesterday so your case should be on it's way to you today.

Here is the tracking info:

Tracking Detail | Help

Billing information has been sent to UPS. Check site later for updated shipment status or contact shipper for more details.


Tracking Number: 1Z 194 AR1 68 9148 373 9
Type: Package
Status: Billing Information Received
Shipped to: OSHAWA, ON, CA
Shipped or Billed on: 11/07/2006
Service Type: STANDARD
Weight: 16.00 Lbs




Tracking results provided by UPS: 11/10/2006 4:14 P.M. EST (USA)
etc."

I can't believe I've just read all four pages of this stuff. It's pretty clear who's in the wrong, but my verdict is thus:

" I aint buying nothing from Russ and
I aint selling nothing to Ron"

And so say we all, I'll bet...Geo

Seems all this could have been avoided by shipping case to buyer when said. In as much as check was accepted, this indicates sale was finalized & case had new owner. Case was used for shipping container without owners permission. Ken

And,D. Weber, how about restricting this guy's adverts to the advertisers' list. If he's bought the site and is paying the bills, I see no reason why I should feel compelled to.

jack

Geo,
I have to agree only with half of yuour statement.

I aint buying nothing from Russ.

If I sold to Ron it would be without delay, side trips or any store credit and with the right to return and if my mistake made the sale bad, then refund for tarrifs and taxes. In bussiness sometimes you have to eat your mistakes. We all do it in real life.

This $50.00 tiff has earned him a thousand dollars of free advertising. If he looses just one sale in the future because of his actions he has lost more than $50.00 IMHO. That is why I suggested yesterday that his best interest was to let it die a natural death, stop defending a position that was not defendable and it would be on page 4 in a day or two. These long post attract more attention and will get read a lot and remembered a long time.

Rus, Just read the emails you posted and they don't make you look just a whole lot better. About 20 people have said this already, but I am going to try just one more time: you used a gun case for which a customer paid in full to ship guns to yet another customer. That is inexcusable. There is no adequate explanation that you can offer which can suffice. And regardless of what any number of people in CA might or might not say about the condition of Ron's case .... the operative word being "Ron" ... you have the responsibility to make this right with your original customer. Our integrity is the single most valuable thing any of us own. I am stunned that you can't seem to undertand what dammage this does to many of our perceptions of yours. I would pay close attention to Geo's and Ken's notes above. And I think I would have someone you know and respect read the notes you just posted and give you some honest feedback. I wish you the best Rus.

When someone uses the expression " things are a little complicated” they are being disingenuous, only trying to justify their mistake. As a small dealer who sells a fraction of the guns he sells, I cannot for the life of me understand why he doesn’t have custom shipping boxes for shotguns and long guns made and on hand to ship whatever a customer buys without having to resort to what he did. Hell, I just had a hundred each of long gun boxes with sleeves and double gun boxes with dividers and sleeves made and they cost me about a thousand for the 200 boxes. That’s 5 bucks a box. So, to save 5 bucks on a box, he uses a case he sold to someone else to ship guns. Not what I would call a decision normally made by a good businessman.

The bottom line is that this was a bad decision on Russ’s part and he should just offer to take it back at no financial loss to the customer. There is too much room for speculation and the only way to clear the air is to do that. Anything short of this is quibbling at best and deceptive and fraudulent at worse.

I do have boxes Brian, but I don't ship matched pairs of guns, or any high grade gun for that matter, in cardboard boxes. I ship them in a hard case.

I have now offered to make Mr. Vella completely whole for the $50 he is out of pocket to make his case perfect, still waiting for his response.

I have admitted several times I should not have set the case via CA. Seemed like a good idea at the time. I was in a pinch and I figured UPS is going to ship this thing from one depot to another, what's another stop on the way? It's not as if it were a brand new case. It was a used case whose purpose was to ship guns around. I didn't try to conceal this from Mr. Vella, and I could have and just blamed everything on UPS. I believe I did the right thing offering to credit Mr. Vella at the time for the additional week delay. He refused and it was clear from his tone that he wasn't going to work in good faith on this matter.

But I never bought the damage story and I still don't. A picture or two would have helped resolve this months ago. However, I am still waiting for Mr. Vella's pictures of the damaged lining.

I'll say this to the many folks who say "refund everything he paid including his customs duty and let him keep the case". Maybe folks who put fat markups on everything can afford this kind of gesture (like Orvis, as another poster noted). I can't. If I did, my other customers would end up subsidizing a couple of CFHs. That's not right.

There is nothing wrong with proper cardboard boxes with protective sleeves. I know a number of dealers in high grade guns who use them to ship their "expensive" guns.

So, in order to save yourself 30-40 bucks on a hard case to ship a pair of guns that have to be worth at least 10 grand. , you use someone else's?????

Russ,
Since you only have one or two CFH's a year for a business that maintains several thousand items in inventory, I would say that it is a small price to pay to keep your reputation. One "oh Sh**" wipes out a thousand "atta boys". I have dealt with the CFH types and I lost money on them. But my rep is worth more than what I would lose refunding a purchase.

I am not going to get into this anymore other than repeat what Jimmney Cricket said; Let your conscience be your guide".

Mr. HQ has defended himself (over different topics) at length to his detriment on other BBS's.

It was unlikely I would have purchased from him due to those threads, now you can imagine the chances of me purchasing from him have dropped off a cliff.

I may have missed it in this long thread but that sounds like a hollow challenge. Mr. Vella has already stated he repaired the case and so you know it is unlikely that pictures would show anything.

A couple of other more prominent dealers have been down this tortuous route on this and the SSM BBS. They didn't fair any better than you are and they seemed to have learned from it. "The customer is always right." Suck it up dude, you lost this one.

I have bought several guns from Brian. His boxes are first class and ship well. Any bussinessman who claims that his margins are too thin to package his goods well is not goning to win any points in my book. Raise your prices. No one but you sets your prices. If you let your customers set your prices you would soon be broke.

Gentlemen, I believe that there is no resolution to this and we should let this thread die right here. Mr. Gould continues to call me a liar. I know the truth of the matter. My wife and my friends who saw the case when it arrived know the truth of the matter. As Utah notes above, I have already completely rebuilt the case so how could I now provide photos of the damage? As I have said since November, I do not want any money, nor any credit from Mr. Gould. That is not what this is about, as I explained at the outset. An acknowledgement that PERHAPS I was telling the truth would have been nice. An apology would have done it. Unfortunately, that is not in the man's makeup. What option did I have, to just suck it up and let this behaviour go? I guess that my refusal to do so makes me a "Customer From Hell"!

For heaven sakes! Why didn't the buyer take pictures of his damaged case to prove his point! Why didn't the seller have pictures of what is was selling to defend himself in the event a problem like this occurs. I really don't care how busy the buyer may have been, if the condition of the case was an issue, why did you wait 3mos (I think that is what you said) to air the problem now? Besides, now it is all repaired, how can we know what it was when it arrived. How can the seller know how it was when it left Calif., without pictures? I am not defending anyone, but there has sure been some serious mistakes made in this whole transaction, at least IMHO. This is a mess that I hope both parties recognize their mistakes over.

"One out of four ain't bad."

I didn't say that I couldn't afford to pack my items correctly KY. I said my margins don't allow me to throw money at (the very few) customers who complain like hell but won't return their purchases for a refund. Orvis can afford that, I can't. And out of principle, I won't encourage this type of consumer behavior.

Dave, your point about pics is the one I have been trying to make many times over. Thank you for bring it up again. I posted a pic of the case as it was when I shipped it. It's on page one. Here it is again:



And in this case Mr. Vella doesn't want money as many of you have suggested, he wants to get even for a perceived wrong. He just said so above. I offered him the full $50 he says he is out, and as I predicted, he spurned it, just like he spurned my offer to make good on the delay way back when it happened. Like I said, he seems to have a vindictive personality.

I did apologize to him for the shipping delay at the time and made a peace offering for that and it got me nowhere. His tirades just got louder. That's what happens when you try to appease a bully. Apologizing to him for what I perceive to be grossly exaggerated and unsubstantiated wear and tear to a used guncase ain't going to happen. Not without pictures.

And Utah Shotgunner, pls be specific about "other threads". Post a link if you please. This is a first for me. I don't always agree with what people say, but I don't rip them off. To you and to all the others who have jumped to conclusions about me and my company based on this one very fuzzy data point, with all the exposure this is getting, show me ONE additional customer complaint on this thread. You can't because, with the exception of CFHs, I take care of my customers.

I know that most of the readers on this board are consumers and not dealers. I don't expect much sympathy given the stereotype of a used gun dealer. Not much better than a used car dealer. But the shallow thinking and knee-jerk reactions on the part of some posters has been disappointing, frankly.

And to Shooting Star, that's a cheap shot. You don't know me from Adam. If you did, you wouldn't indulge in this adolescent stuff (How old are you anyway?).

Bingo!

Post deleted by Recoil Rob

DD You got some nice guns on your site and I can say this squabble over a crappy case won't stop me from doing business with you in the future should I see something I like. You do need better pictures on your site.

Russ:

You screwed up by shipping guns in another customer's case without his knowledge or permission. You have no way of knowing the condition of the case when it finally arrived in Canada. The pre-shipping case photos you have posted here show the case with two guns in it. Two guns can hide a lot of small damage. You have offered Ron a $50 credit, rather than a check for $50. A credit is worthless to Ron, and you are not even valuing his time or trouble. There is no defense for your behavior or for your attitude. With each post, you seem to dig yourself a deeper hole. Even IF Ron is a CFH (and that is not a certainty), you should have settled this appropriately, and before it got to this stage.

I'm not a dealer, and even I keep a supply of sturdy cartons and a few hard cases around the house just for shipping expensive guns (Parker, L. C. Smith, etc., not junk). It's hard to believe that you don't have the means to ship guns that you are in the business of selling. I bought a used Browning hard case a couple years ago from Able Ammo in Texas, thought it wasn't as represented, they sent me a fresh one and told me to keep the damaged one. That's customer service. What the hell are you thinking?

The irony of all of this is that Russ is the one who was bi**hing about the guy from KY who screwed him and wouldn't refund his money for goods not as described!!!!

One one hand he wants a refund because the goods weren't as described and he flames the guy but when the shoe is on the other foot...........

Unless I am missing something?? Am I that dumb, blind, ignorant or combination of the three?
Thanks KY John for the compliment.

BTW: I have recently took back a Browning BAR that in the second sentence of the description I stated that it had a factory replacement stock. What do you know, the guy calls me and says the buttstock wasn't original and he wanted an original stocked gun. i sold it as a shooter. I said no problem, send it back. Full refund. I did ask him to look at the description and see what I wrote. he did and paid me the fee I was charged for selling it on Gunbroker. A gentleman. Thats th way its supposed to work. And if he wouldn't pay it, so be it; I would eat it.

I am in business and understand there are some you wont satisfy.

Brian, yes you are missing something. I'll take the time to explain because I think you are sincere.

I didn't tell the gentleman from Kentucky that I was going to keep the guns but that he should pay for a new buttstock on the Lefever and to have the Parker receiver filed, polished, engraved and refinished. I just want him to take the guns back and refund what I paid for the guns. And I have pictures showing the guns are flagrantly misrepresented. All Ron has is a lot of hot air and his wife's word.

Would have done the same for Ron. Taken the case back and refunded his $295 (at least that, more if his story had panned out). But from the outset, he stated he was going to keep the case, he just wanted me to pay to restore it. I couldn't relate to that, sorry. And Ron didn't send me any evidence (in the absence of the case itself, some pics would have worked fine). I don't pay for restoration of used items...you either send it back and get your money back, or you keep it and get on with life. The restoration thing is a minefield.

Homeless Joe, you are a courageous man! A fellow maverick perhaps? I appreciate the feedback, some of my stuff was photo'd some time ago when my digital camera was kinda basic. Now I have a better one so the more recent stuff is much better. You are welcome to visit with me anytime. Hey, you can have the $50 Ron Vella didn't want. (Same goes for any poster on this thread, just to show I treat everyone the same, on any purchase of $295 or over, that's what Ron paid for his case). Call it the Ron Vella special discount! Ron Vella, ironically, does NOT qualify for the Ron Vella special discount. Too late for that.

I don't please. I stated an opinion concerning your behaviour in threads on various BBS's. I didn't say they were threads calling into question your business practices, they were 'normal' threads displaying your personality. Links will not be forthcoming.

In my opinion I don't find you very personable and would not buy from you or visit your shop. This thread only REINFORCED my opinion.

Keep digging. All you do with your replies is keep this thread at the top of the list.

Russ,
all I can say is that given the readership, the full refund of his payment and duties would have been a far better bargain than the negative aspects of this diatribe.

The bigger man would just send him a check and pay return ship on the case and figure he would return it. Parsing your words or whatever doesn't bode well under the microscope of the collective membership of the board. Fall on you sword and get it over with. Like it or not you have been judged in the court of public opinion of this site.

The negatives of this episode far outweigh any philosophical, moral, ethical argument mush less any monetary aspects as to who is right and who is wrong.
The bigger man would do the right thing.

Yes Utah, my personality. You know me well I suppose? I don't believe we have ever met.

Let me tell you about myself. I call things as I see them. I do what I say I will do. I don't run from a fight. I don't sell out my principles for money. And I don't tolerate charming people like yourself very well.

You and Ron seem to have something in common: you can't or won't back up your own statements. Instead, you whine and complain and act superior.

This post can stay at the top of this BBS forever. I am not ashamed of it.

"This post can stay at the top of this BBS forever. I am not ashamed of it."

That is the real problem. You are right and the whole world is wrong, and your attitude comes across, it can also go to H--- if they have a problem with your position. Not a reasoned position by any means. Type harder, you might still make your points.

I bought over 30 doubles last year and am on a pace to buy far more than that number this year. And like last year, I bought none from you and will keep that record intact. That will make both of us happy, I am sure.

People in a superior position find it easy to act superior.

In life, one of the conflicts always present is how you decide the hard right from the easy wrong.

OK kids knock it off! Russ was wrong for shipping the case via CA and he admitted that. Only Russ knows the condition as it was sent off. Only Vella knows the condition as received. He did not return it and has since altered the condition. Neither gentleman has presented complete evidence of the condition on either end so the case is in dispute and frankly on resolvable. Vella is wrong in taking his issue to this forum and one might say Caveat Emptor in respect of him. Duh, Caveat Emptor in every transaction no matter who you're dealing with, and for heaven's sake protect your self.

Vella should have never accepted the case and asked for a full refund...if Russ refused then Vella's got a beef.

From what I read Vella chose to keep the case along with it's issues if that's the case....then I say too bad for Vella.

Well KY, get to postin' some pics will you - just watch the overload on our computers!

That's just the point Brian. I don't sell out my principles to protect my pocketbook. Expediency is not in my vocabulary. That's for politicians.

Placating a CFH to keep him quiet is not being big, that's being small.

I don't care if KY John never buys a gun from me. He never has so he's taking back the sleeves of his vest. I don't care if Utah never buys a gun from me. Small minded people are usually a PITA to deal with anyway.

Wow, that's telling them Russ. Go ahead and stand on your principles. In fact, with your attitude toward the great unwashed that you have to put up with in business, you should get used to standing because it won't be too long before you won't have a chair to sit on or a pot to @$$ in.
I've never bought a gun from you either. After reading all of this I doubt I ever will, so add me to the list of future sales you won't have a chance to make.

"Adults" bevaving badly! Bad transactions occur. Errors in judgement are made by most of us. Nobility and carriage could have made this a lesson to retold about the best of men. Alas for the princely sum bantered about above reputations forever tarnished on the alter of pride....

A sad tale indeed.

Couple more comments and I'm outa here not to return. The standard right of return and refund is expensive for customers as Ron has pointed out. I believe also that third-party or customer correction of faults, undisclosed, incidental to shipping, or ?, could be very expensive for dealers as Russ has pointed out. Telling difference between "is" and "could be" but let that one go. We are all good Joes when the sun shines but not above stretching it a bit to keep the shirts on our backs,period.

Russ, is there any chance you could see your way clear to post here as Russ Gould or Maverick or something short of a commercial broadside? Perazone manages to do so and we all know who he is and what he does for a living.

jack

The life this has created will run lots longer than this thread. As KyJon and others have stated to Russ --- "just let it go !" In as much as their advice wasn't heeded, kinda makes one wonder how many years this will stick in the minds of the gun buying readers and friends. You know how it goes --- I tell a friend and he tells a friend and before you know it the story spreads and gets blown out of preportion. Man, this could follow a guy forever ! I've been in the firearm business for 48 years and can tell you of each guy who has screwed me. I also remember the warnings of friends who have told me about such and so dealer and the dirty/unethical dealings they (or their friends) had with them. Boy, I sure would hate to have that following me around --- Ken

All this, and for a couple hundred bucks - I think this takes the cake!
You'd think this was over an uppity smallbore.

I would be LIVID if I'd paid for that case (thus, making it MINE), only to have the seller decide it was okay to use MY purchase as a shipping box for something else he'd sold to a third party... WITHOUT first advising me of the intention to do so and obtaining my permission. Mr. Gould, your seizure of this particular expedient solution to a shipping problem that was YOURS, not Mr. Vella's, was improper, to say the least, and it tells me you are someone with whom I would not care to do business. You blew it, in a BIG way, within the sphere of business ethics, not to mention ordinary common sense, technicalitites of civil law notwithstanding.

I have a relatively simple gunsmithing project that a local could easily handle. I thought about it last night and I think I will contact Brian and see if he would like the work. What is a few dollars in freight for the confidence of knowing you will receive superior service.

I know your internet personality very well. You are aggressive irritating and always right. The last time I checked there is no requirement to provide documentation of an OPINION.

For those who might be interested visit the BBS's at accuratereloading.com and do a search for this 'gentleman' and read his rants. I believe you might find some of the same at nitroexpress.com.

Why don't you ask Dave Weber to make this post a sticky if you are so proud of it?

This thread has brought a question to mind. Why is it that our culture ASSUMES the seller to be the honest one? Why doesn't the seller ship, and then the purchaser send payment when he receives what he purchased? Who has more to lose in the transaction? If the deal goes bad, the seller is out his cost, while the buyer is out the full price. And if I purchase a gun from a dealer with an inspection period, why do I have to return the gun to get a refund? The seller required funds before he shipped the gun to me, why shouldn't he now send a refund before I return the gun to him? Why should the buyer take all the risk? He's not making any money on the deal. Profits from being in business are the reward for taking some risk. Where's the risk for the seller when he is paid before the item is even shipped. ALL the risk in being taken by the buyer. BTW, "What goes around, comes around."

Good stuff B Frech!
"Why should the buyer take all the risk."
Why should my plastic be money in the bank, when I wait on pins and needles to see if my gun makes it thru UPS for the three day inspection. If the gun is damaged - its my gun!

What's a CFH?
The possible good point of this Thread is that it has illustrated how not to conduct business. Today with the contact provided by the Internet, an increasing amount of commerce is being conducted over the Internet by individuals that will never come in physical contact with one another. The cost can be $$ or comparatively small but in all cases, one needs to conduct business with integrity or the system will collapse which is why we have Regulation of the Stock Market. What I am seeing in many areas is that individuals for whatever reason don't understand the importance of thier integrity and. I for one am becoming very wary when I conduct business over the 'Net.
When the case was used to ship guns to a third party, all requirements of the customer to satisfy the seller as to actual damages ceased. What Mr Vella wants is nothing from the seller but only to make others aware of the way the seller conducts business. I am aware and I'm sure that many others will become aware. -Dick

A CFH is a "customer from hell".

In this case (pun intended) it is not our culture, it is because the seller admitted fault. He used the case he had SOLD to ship guns to a third person. This is wrong. He should have apologized and refunded Ron's money.

Instead he chooses to continue bashing Ron and anyone whose opinion differs from his. Foolish.

quote:
I offered to refund Mr. Vella"s money but he refused. Anything we sell can be returned for any reason or no reason, for a refund, except brand new items which can only be returned if we ship the wrong item. (He also scornfully refused my offer of a store credit as a goodwill gesture for the delay..perhaps a clue to his temperament).


Mr.Gould, I challenge you, here in an open forum, to post from your "Sent Items" file the message in which you made this offer to me. Such a post would have to be a "Cut and Paste", complete with addresses and date/time stamps, the same as I have done here, to show their authenticity. I do not wish to get into a mud-slinging match here. I, personally, despise people who use the anonimity of the internet to make statements which would earn them a "knuckle sandwich" if made when face-to-face. However, I will say here in public, that your statement in the quotes above, is untrue. AT NO TIME, until after I posted this caveat, did you offer ANYTHING, except a $25.00 credit against any future purchase.

Probably because most buyers would have this risk once or twice in a year, while a busy dealer would have it once or twice a day. Too much risk to stay in business with unknown customers, while a dealer has to protect his reputation. How many of us do you think will order from doublegunhfdfq now?

To the seller: you made a mistake sending the case to Calf. to solve your problem ...... AND trying to lay off the mistake on the buyer in public. Is a CFH anyone who doesn't like what you do? I've looked at your site a few times and would have considered doing business with you ...... Now it would have to be a "must have" item for me to consider it. BTW I think you owe him the cost of the keys and lock repair.
To the buyer: When you were told that the case went to Calif. Why didn't you tell the seller not to bother sending it to you ..... it was a deal breaker. I think you didn't because you still thought it was worth the money ..... By letting him send it to you ..... and accepting the shipment when it arrived you took some of the risk.

Al

Russ, when you chose to ship to someone other than Ron, you gave up any ethical standing to question his description of the case when he received it. You have only the word of a 3rd party about it's condition when shipped to Ron. You have only Ron's word about it's condition when received. You choose to believe the 3rd party and accuse Ron of lying.

You became defensive and angry at Ron's intemperance about your unauthorized use of his case. You even acknowledge that you might have responded differently but for his attack on you. Does this make him a liar?

This statement shows self-justifying, even grandiose thinking based on your choice to demonize Ron:
"I don't sell out my principles to protect my pocketbook. Expediency is not in my vocabulary. That's for politicians.
Placating a CFH to keep him quiet is not being big, that's being small."

No. What's big is taking responsibility for a mistake, recognizing that you earned your customer's angry reaction, and giving benefit of the doubt where you failed your commitment to him and gave away control of the case.

Now as for small ... that seems to describe your offer of purchase credit rather than reimbursing expenses. Your first principle seems to be to win -- to save a buck or make a buck, both going and coming, and avoid any real out of pocket consequences for your actions.

Vella, In your first post you said you didn't take the full refund because you would have been out customs fees not because Russ didn't offer it. You kept the case and all your claims of damage are unsubstantiated. Everyone here, including the seller, agrees that it was wrong to send the case via CA. Drop it already.

Unbelievable thread. Were I Mr. Gould, I would have offered to take the case back AND refund Mr. Vella's duty and shipping, if only to make up for my boneheaded move of using someone else's possessions as a shipping container.

Gould's "justifications" for his actions are the mark of a sharp operator (as well as not being too bright) and now everyone on this board knows to watch out for him. Business is so easy and profitable if you're honest, look out for your customers, are fair, and try to sell things as described.

The negative publicity Gould has generated for himself is going to cost him a LOT more than taking back the case and refunding the duty would have cost him. Bad business strategy and execution, for sure.

Mr. Vella, you are right on this point, however this is a standard portion of our terms of sale, which is copied verbatim from our website:

RETURNS AND REFUNDS: NetworkRetailing LLC (not the seller) will refund your purchase price excluding shipping costs, provided both the seller and NetworkRetailing LLC are notified by email within three days (72 hours) of delivery or within ten days (240 hours) of payment confirmation, whichever is sooner, that the item will be returned, and provided further that the items are in fact returned (i.e. delivered, not shipped) to the seller or his agent at the seller’s option (not to NetworkRetailing LLC) within ten days of delivery to you or your agent, subject to the following additional conditions:

3. ALL USED ITEMS OTHER THAN FIREARMS: Any or all used items other than firearms may be returned for any reason or no reason to the relevant seller(s) provided that they are complete and in the same condition as shipped.

and regarding shipping damage

"Goods lost or damaged in transit to the buyer or his agent are the responsibility of the seller and vice versa. In the event of loss or damage en route to the buyer, the seller will at his option either replace the item or NetworkRetailing LLC will refund the full purchase price including outbound shipping to the buyer."

So basically you had the option to return the item for a refund; and if it transpired that the item was in fact damaged going out, you would have gotten your shipping costs back as well. But since you stated:

"I would return the case immediately, but for the fact that I have just paid an additional $97.21 to UPS for Customs Brokerage Fees and GST which I cannot now recover." and since you did not in fact return the item within the prescribed period, you gave up your right to compensation.

I assumed from your statement above that you understood you did have the right to return for a refund, and the point was moot.

If you had in fact returned it, and if it transpired that the case had been damaged in transit, I would have done two things:

1. Refunded your purchase price and your shipping cost both ways per policy. I don't have a policy with regard to customs duties, since we sell almost nothing outside the US due to the nature of the goods we are selling, however, I probably would have made that good as well because I would have been extremely embarrassed to find that you were right and I was wrong.
2. Submitted a claim to UPS for the damage that they inflicted on the case, since the case was fully insured for both legs.

I paid insurance on this case. If it were damaged en route, it's no skin off my nose to recover the cost from UPS and to make good with the customer. UPS insurance covers return shipping and any shipping incurred to repair the case. I have won every insurance claim I have ever made on UPS.But in order to win a claim, I have to have substantiation of damage. Pictures and usually UPS visits the customer's premises to inspect the item before it's returned.

To clarify re the above policies, in the case of this item, NR LLC was the seller.

The bottom line for buyers of goods on our websites is that the WORST CASE SCENARIO is that you are out the shipping on an item that you purchase from us. This protects us from "buyer remorse". If the item is damaged en route, you are OUT NOTHING. You either get an identical item (if it is replaceable) or you get ALL YOUR MONEY BACK.

However, if you keep the item, all bets are off. What could be more simple (or fair) than this?

The problem here is that I believed (and still believe) that the case arrived in the condition it left here, and was as described, complete with a bare spot in the felt in one compartment, but not ripped up and (as you now state 3 months later) bashed about. Yes, there were no keys but the case was not described as having keys, and in any case you were able to obtain keys for free from Americase. Regarding the combination lock, it was set to 0000 and it worked on 0000 as written on the case in marker pen. So all I knew was that it worked. Since this problem was brought up after things had already gotten heated, I dismissed it as operator error or worse.

I'll make a third and last attempt to straighten this out. Send the case back to me, and I will apply our policies retroactively. In other words, I will refund what you paid for it, your shipping, and your return shipping costs to me. In addition, in this case I will pay your customs duties and I will compensate you for the $50 you spent fixing it up. I won't be able to claim anything from UPS since there is no evidence of damage, and the claim period is up. So this comes out of my pocket.

The only condition is that you accept this offer on this BBS.

Boy, that's the most begrudging, pouting, legalistic case of a man doing what he should have done in the first place, but it's now finally, painfully done. Absent a flat-out apology for mis-using a case sold to a customer, this is going to be as good as it gets.

Vella, send it all back, get your money back and end this insanity, for the love of God and L.C. Smith.

DeWayne

This should have been your reply in the very beginning along with an apology...

That's the correct offer, Russ. Consider anything you lost on this deal as business school tuition. You finally did good!

I won't comment on the speed or tone of the offer, but it's the right thing to do and credit goes to Mr. Gould for it. Better late than never.

Ron Vella never wanted to return the gun case, he kept the case, fixed the case, made the case his---he is pissed he had to pay $97.10 to the Canadaian Government for their share. The Canadaian Government made more profit than Russ Gould, the lock company, the liner material maker, etc. The trouble is Ron Vella can't get mad at Canada---he has no sounding board with them---someone has to pay for you free health care. So he gets mad at Russ Gould---an easy mark---what does Ron Vella have to lose---nothing! Do the right thing return and get your refund including the duties you are suppose to pay!

I sure hope you did not order a RBL.

Russ, If that is the way you sent the gun as per your picture, I don't see any BUBBLE wrap around the gun so as not to dammage the case as you said. Gee maybe you forgot that too. Anyway YOU were responsible to get the case to your customer intact NOT the guy you sold the pair of guns to. If you asked me to forward a case to some one else, you can guess were I would tell you to go.
BE A MAN or get out of the business! End of story don't deal with the guy. I won't that's for sure.

Wow. The things that happen when I'm away from the computer for a few days. Amazing string.



Utah Shotgunner is quite right. Do read Gould's posts on these other sites. You will see the same arrogant attitude. I remember one string where the guy implied that if you used a professional gunmaker for a pre-purchase evaluation of an expensive used gun, you were just trying to cheat the seller. Steer way clear of this guy.

I have a quick and easy solution that will make everyone happy, eliminate further shipping and duty expense for both parties, allow both parties to come out even, clean up all reputations involved, and make all posters think "Why didn't I think of that?" If anyone thinks I'm going to share this solution, think again. I'm not getting involved.

They say bad publicity is better than no publicity.

I think this whole squabble stemmed from the 'Duty Fee' someone didn't want to pay.

Vella started this now he can close this thread. We're still waiting for his online response to get a full refund or keep the case full stop.

I think it was foolish to offer him a refund.

Gentlemen,
I agree it's time to let this one go but unfortunately, Mr. Gould's offer is in my opinion too little too late. Many can probably see two sides to this story, but consider this.

1 - We all know the hassles involved in packaging and shipping which will be another out of pocket expense for Mr. Vella while he waits for Mr. Gould to make good on his offer of reimbursement.

2 - The costs quoted for repairs (if I am not mistaken) are the costs charged by Americase for the actual parts. Someone had to then install the parts and reline the case which is additional expense that Mr. Gould has not offered to repay.

3 - Since Mr. Vella went through the hassle and grief of restoring this case, why should he now wish to return it to Mr. Gould? So Gould could sell it again, while Mr. Vella still needs a case?

4 - Mr. Vella in his initial post made it quite explicit that he did not want anything from Mr. Gould. He posted his experience for the rest of us to judge for ourselves, and I appreciate it.

Had Mr. Gould done the right thing in the first place, beginning with NOT using the case for his own benefit and completing the sale in a timely manner as is stated as a seller requirement in the "Conditions" section of his web site, none of this would have happened.

The fact that it took 10 pages of commentary on this BB and more on Shooting Sportsman before for Mr. Gould even bring himself to accept a minimum amount of responsibility and make his final offer is tragic. Unfortunately, his arrogance still precluded him from actually apologizing to Mr. Vella for the problem and his words (like CFH) and actions that followed. Once again the ommission of even a basic apology is in my opinion what makes all of this much too little and much too late.

I believe at this time the only satisfactory conclusion is a sincere apology from Mr. Gould to Mr. Vella. Reimbursement for the repairs that had to be made to bring the case back to the standard that Mr. Vella expected and paid for in the first place would also be appropriate.

Gentlemen, I apologize for taking so long to close this matter. I have been at work since 6:30 this morning and our server has been down until about half an hour ago. I just got to read Mr. Gould’s offer about 15 minutes ago.

Russell Gould, I want to thank you publicly for making the offer of 100% reimbursement, which you have. Frankly, if you had offered in November to help defray my costs to repair the case, I would have gone away a happy customer, the California business notwithstanding. At any rate, you have now done what many here, including me, see to be the correct thing and I applaud you for having done so.

However, I have invested probably 25 to 30 hours of my spare time in gutting, relining, and re-configuring this case. While so doing, I have added fitted blocks for snap-caps as well as oil and Vaseline bottles. Also, I have widened the barrel channels so that the barrels are now held horizontally, rather than vertically, as in the original. So the case has been customized to the point where it is not anywhere near its original configuration. After all of the work that I have put into it, it is as near new as a used case can be and I am happy with it as it now stands.

I stated to you on November 22, and again here on February 10, that I was not looking for anything from you. I stand by those statements. For these reasons, and for the reasons, which Sharpsrifle has so very ably delineated above, I will keep the case.

I hereby accept your offer of a 100% refund as full and total restitution for all past inconveniences and costs.

Also, as quickly as it is possible to do so, I will post a message on the other BBS’s informing the readers of our settlement of this matter.


Thank you and good shooting,
Ron Vella.

Now would somebody please open a window?

"I stated to you on November 22, and again here on February 10, that I was not looking for anything from you. I stand by those statements. For these reasons, and for the reasons, which Sharpsrifle has so very ably delineated above, I will keep the case."

Mr. Vella,

I think you misunderstood my offer. I offered to make you absolutely whole for all your expenses including the duties you paid, and the cost of returning the case to me (which amounts to more than the cost of a new case as quoted somewhere else in this thread), but the case must be returned.

I did not offer to pay you $400 plus to restore, customize and keep the case you bought from me for $295. The day you got the case, you requested $100 from me to reline it and at that time I declined because I had no reason to believe that the case needed relining. This seems to be the consistent thread throughout. I now believe, even more strongly than I ever did, that it was your intention to at least restore and probably to customize the case from day 1.

I never hid from you or anyone else the fact that the case arrived a week later than it should have due to my error in judgement, and I did apologize up front for that and offered to essentially pay your shipping cost via a store credit. Would have sent you a check if you had countered with that, but since you are in CA and I am in US, checks are awkward.

Since you continue to decline to return the case, we are done.

Gentlemen, draw you own conclusions from Mr Vella's response.

I rest my "case".

Mr Gould, It is you who misunderstands me. "I hereby accept your offer of a 100% refund as full and total restitution for all past inconveniences and costs." Perhaps this is ambiguous. What I mean is that I accept the offer itself, not the money!

What I mean is that the fact that you finally offered, is satisfaction enough for me. I keep the case, you keep your money. I'm not sure that it's possible to say it any more plainly than that! I tried my damnedest to close this thing with some civility. You just don't seem to want to stop casting aspersions on my character. Have a nice life!

Yes I did misunderstand. I interpreted your response literally. I apologize for that. Can we call this quits now?

How deep in doublegunhq's grave now?

How deep in doublegunhq's grave now? Refund Vella's money and we can quit. However your reputation is in the Toilet.

ALL STOP. NOW PLEASE.

Way to go gentlemen!

I ran across this thread over the weekend. Must have perceptively screened it before. I read most all of it. Too bad about the whole situation. Some reason, shooters can be a stubborn bunch. I have no dog in this fight (which sounds to be resolved). But:
A few weeks ago a gun broker I have done business with in the past offered to sell me a Philly Fox SW 16 restored with new case color, the whole nine yards. Though I have bought many shotguns in my life and own some dandys, I am somewhat new to this old double game. I asked a question to this board about how to tell if redone case color was right or a torch job or some other problem.
Russ Gould responded and I ended up in direct communication with him. I forwarded pics of the gun to him. He was helpful, gracious and gave me very good advice (which included buying the superb gun for 1,500 as fast as I could).
He never tried to sell me anything. He never made any kind of pitch and he was generous with his time and knowledge (which is considerable).
Everyone makes mistakes.
Happy trails, Jake (aka Craig Clark)

Russ I hope to do business with you in the future.
HomelessjOe (aka L.F.Cox)

I've done business with Russ Gould and found him to be honest, straightforward and responsible. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to anyone.

My god I stayed up until 12:40 AM reading 12 pages of fighting over a $200 and change case. I feel like I'm on a diet and I just ate a whole box of ding dongs.


Why did I read all 12 pages...Im going to be sooo tired at work,,,

Once you got to the Pink Flamingo it was hard to stop wasn't it.

"I've done business with Russ Gould and found him to be honest, straightforward and responsible. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend him to anyone."

LOL....from a new poster with 3 posts...kinda fishy.

I too have done business with Russ. I have no complaints it all went very smooth. This whole thing has been incedibly dumb from both sides. Shipping something in "my" cas would have pissed me off too, still....

No, it isn't fishy. I'v posted here many times but I've been away for a while so I seem to have been started over.
Last year Russ advertised a bird shoot in Namibia. I, one of my brothers and two friends took him up on it. I was worried. I didn't know him. Flying all the way to Africa was a big step based solely on an internet advert for a bird shoot. But everything was perfect. We had a great shoot followed by a sightseeing trip to the Etosha National Park, all aranged by Russ, and we had a most wonderful time. I'm going back this year. It's hard to make everybody happy, but Russ made us happy.
Nothing fishy about it.

Actually he registered about 4 years before you did.

That "something" was guns....just what it was designed to carry. Not like it was used to ship herring. Big storm in a teacup I'd say. The buyer ended up reconfiguring the interior of the case so all the unsubstantiated claims about damage make me very suspicious. Buyer prolly just ticked off cause seller's initial response to shipping via CA was not what the buyer wanted. Buyer also prolly didn't expect a $97 duty fee on a couple hundred dollar case. Interesting how a bunch of others piled on yet they had no bad dealings with seller.

3 posts in 4 years? That's a new poster.

Seems like a credible source, but why choose sides in this tawdry affair?

No it isn't, it's just not a very prolific poster.

I can't believe he signed up 4 years ago to defend Russ.

I tell you the truth, if this is what happens as a result of a indefensible mistake by this dealer, I would be out of my mind to buy a high end gun from this gentleman.

Take an aspirin and call me in the morning.

Enough is Enough.
Russ, you did wrong and got found out.Hopefully you have learned from this.
Ron, grow up for pity sake you didn't really get burned, and you've had your micro-second of fame.You and a good many more will not do business with Russ now or ever again, but I am sure he will continue to have friends and customers.
Could you please continue this tirade of abuse on shootingsportsman BBS?

Wow can I get the last 30 minutes back I wasted on this!

Thomas More Meditation
"To buy the time again that I before have lost."

I can't believe I just spent the last 45 minutes reading this thread. It was like a bad soap opera.

I also can't believe that the seller of a guncase would do anything other than ship it to the person who had bought it.

All of us have made mistakes in judgement that we wish we could rewind or call back and pray that no one notices or airs it in public. But the best of us know this and look beyond this. Russ sells a top of the line product that I can't find just anywhere, if he has something I need you bet I would buy from him.
All the best

Enough of this.

Thread is locked...come on guys lets get away from settling private disputes on the BBS.