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Posted By: Geo. Newbern MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 02:20 AM
I have bought a project gun. A Boss&Co hammergun from about 1871. I have not even seen it yet, except for pictures posted by the seller in the 'for sale' forum here.

I've never renovated anything and can barely turn a screw. I did however buy a copy of Tony Treadwell's book and must have caught something from reading it!

Foremost, I realize I'm going to need a suitable set of 30" Damascus barrels to have sleeved onto the "decommissioned" set that is on the gun now. I see no point in sleeving modern steel onto this gun. Anyone have a donor set of suitable fine Damascus available for purchase?...Geo
Posted By: JohnfromUK Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 06:24 AM
I'm not sure that you can sleeve using old tubes. Others may know better - but there is now a process where the old tubes can be fully lined. See http://www.teagueprecisionchokesltd.co.uk/barrel_restoration.html for details.
Posted By: Mike Harrell Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 08:49 AM
John his boss has holes in it ground in when sold. I've seen a few sets of damascus barrels on ebay real cheap. The problem is the damascus patterns won't match and you need a good set of donor barrels. i.e. wall thickness and pitless. I salute you for trying to do the damascus route. Good luck.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 10:34 AM
Should have stayed out of that Georgia peach wine...
Posted By: Wild Skies Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 11:58 AM
Keith Kearcher has sleeved damascus with damascus.
Posted By: Small Bore Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 12:11 PM
Forget about barrel lining. Sleeving old damascus barrels to old damascus breech ends - now there is a project. Good luck.
Posted By: lagopus Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 12:33 PM
It will be hard not to see the join. I think Peter Dyson in England still has some tubes but they are going to be expensive. I would say the best to to sleeve with steel and with the money you will save go out an buy another Boss hammer gun. Lagopus.....
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 02:06 PM
Teague barrel lining is no longer avaiable, so I understood.
Is someone else doing it?
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 02:42 PM
Teague lining wouldn't have worked with these barrels anyway; there's about a one inch square of barrel sawn out of each one, albeit above where the cut for the "chamber block" would be made...Geo
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 02:47 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Should have stayed out of that Georgia peach wine...


Georgia peach wine had nothing to do with this undertaking, but I can't argue with jOe's opinion of my "project". Even before Tony Treadwell poisoned my mind with his book, I'd always wanted to bring a good one back from the Cracker Barrell wall of shame...Geo
Posted By: Steve Helsley Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 03:22 PM
George,
Best of luck on your new project. I suggest you purchase the Donald Dallas book BOSS & CO BEST GUNMAKERS. A letter to Boss could confirm the date of manufacture but the Dallas book indicates that your gun was made c.1860 - which means it's a pinfire conversion.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 03:32 PM
Thanks for the suggestion, Steve and the reference to the Dallas book. I have been in touch with the Company and I am waiting now on a history of the gun from them...Geo

PS: The 1871 date was my guess based on an extropilation; the seller said he thought it was a pinfire conversion...all the more interesting!
Posted By: pod Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 04:42 PM
im sure you will come up with some thing the gun certainly warrants the attention.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 05:51 PM
George you should have bought the one Cabelas had listed for a couple of years....better over all condition and you could've even shot it for $1200 bucks. frown
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 06:16 PM
jOe, I didn't have $1,200; I had $750. You're just jealous because you won't be joining me and the other high rollers at the next Boss&Co shotgun owners of America get together...Geo
Posted By: Toby Barclay Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 09:09 PM
Couple of points to bear in mind for your project:
Sleeving with damascus tubes is very possible, I have seen a couple of examples and, although the joint is rather visible if looked for, a passing glance will probably miss it if you are lucky with the match in pattern.
As a converted pinfire, you may well find that the wall thickness at the breech and on through the chambers is considerably less than a more recent centre fire barrel. This means that there is less thickness to accommodate the old breech piece and the internal top-hat of the new barrel.
This thinness also could compromise the safety of the barrel in the chamber area, not a good idea.
One option might be to use 16b tubes sleeved into the 12b stubs. These might more closely match the external dimensions of your old 12b pinfire barrels.
Lastly, extractor holes can run very close to the chamber internal surfaces and might make additional welding necessary on the donor barrels after machining the top-hat.
I would suggest that having a good set of damascus tubes re-lumped to fit your gun may be a neater solution and possibly no more expensive, if you can find someone with the skills to do it.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 09:37 PM
The one at Cabelas was a 3" magnum.
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 09:47 PM
I have a trigger plate Joseph Lang 12 bore NE with exquisite engraving. The Damascus barrels are dented and have holes.
I have a really nice set of heavy Belgian 12 bore damascus 30 inch barrels.
I am sending the gun and barrels to a prominent gunsmith to see if he thinks it is feasible to sleeve the Belgian barrels onto the original Lang barrels.
So many "experts" here have told me it is NOT feasible, I hope to prove them wrong. If it can't be done, then we will just use nwe steel tubes.
Mike
Posted By: Birdog Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/06/12 11:05 PM
George
Interesting project.

I have two photos that you and others may be interested in viewing. I do not remember where on the web I plucked them, maybe from Keith Kearcher.
Good luck with your project.





LARGE Photos
http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/7980/398395belg2800lbud.jpg
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/5973/398395belg2802lbud.jpg
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 12:58 AM
I am very appreciative of the excellent advice I am getting from some guys I consider to be real experts. I also recognize the value of jOe's reminder to keep things in balance; a project like this could get out of hand both in relation to expense and to disappointment in the results.

Toby, I haven't seen the gun yet so I will be on the lookout for the possibility of thin chamber walls. I realize this is a pretty old gun. The switch to 16ga would be a plus for me.

Birdog, I'd be thrilled it it turned out looking the photos you posted...Geo
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 11:03 AM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I am very appreciative of the excellent advice I am getting from some guys I consider to be real experts. I also recognize the value of jOe's reminder to keep things in balance; a project like this could get out of hand both in relation to expense and to disappointment in the results.

Toby, I haven't seen the gun yet so I will be on the lookout for the possibility of thin chamber walls. I realize this is a pretty old gun. The switch to 16ga would be a plus for me.

Birdog, I'd be thrilled it it turned out looking the photos you posted...Geo

George too late now it got out of hand when you bought it...and I believe that's a factory made Husky Birddog posted.
Posted By: gunman Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 11:37 AM
Bac in the hay days of barrel sleeving in Birmingham ,that the late 60's .Tubes were in short supply and as a rule Brummie gun men did not spend money if they did not have to . As a result of this there are a lot of old barrels stripped down and the tube reused .Some were barrel that had for some reason never been finished or that had failed proof on one side and were put aside as nothing was ever scrapped . Greener had a great many that seemed to disperse into the trade ans there were Fire damaged barrels that had come out of the old Midland factory . Yes I have done it myself in the past . It was not uncommon to find a cheaply sleeved gun that had one steel tube and one damascus !

Point being that if you can find a good set of damascus barrels then yes it is possible to take them apart and reuse the tubes . But you have to be very careful and measure up to make sure before you start .Nowadays I would be reluctant to take such a job on and if I did it would be on the script understanding that the outcome of the finished job would not be guaranteed .
Sorry Toby but I think your idea of "re-lumping " is a non starter as I can see so many problems ,believe me having fitted a new lump to a set of barrels in the past I can assure you it ain't easy .
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 11:41 AM
I might add that first step would be to find a good gun to put them on....

kinda like putting a set of shiny twink'y twos with some high dollar skinz on a car with no motor and a rusted out body and clapped out interior.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 04:52 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Birdog, I'd be thrilled it it turned out looking the photos you posted...Geo

George too late now it got out of hand when you bought it...and I believe that's a factory made Husky Birddog posted.


jOe it may be a Husky model 48 or 49(if the chamber bloc is damascus), but it sure didn't come from the factory with damascus to damascus sleeved barrels. I'd be fine with a sleeving result like the pictures Birdog posted...Geo
Posted By: pod Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 06:56 PM
george: just a thought about finding a nice set of damascus barrels. there is a unending supply of shotguns out there with nice damascus barrels but the rest of the gun is junk i see no reason the barrels cant be salvaged and even possibly be fitted to your boss. with the welding techniques of today and machining im sure that gun can properly be brought back. i have bought many junkers over the years with perfect damascus barrels off of gunbroker in the less than $250.00 range. just something to think about.
Posted By: gunman Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 07:21 PM
Pod I like your enthusiasm But I do not think you full understand the problem .Width of centers is the first essential , then no matter how good at welding you may be the width of the lump has to be correct the depth of the lump and the spacing not to mention stripping off the ribs and fitting a new loop . You might have to try 50 pairs of barrels before you come across one that even comes close . Believe me as one who has tried , in my younger and more foolish days , to find barrels that will fit or can be fitted to another gun even of the same make ,it is not a realistic proposition .
Posted By: pod Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/07/12 08:21 PM
i hear you, as you said i really dont understand the ends and out of such a project and in the back of my mind i knew it could not be that simple. im always amazed with the amount of expertise and knowledge on this forum im sure this restoration will be completed in the future with the help of members such as yourself that understand the ins and outs of such a project. regards
Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/08/12 03:42 PM
Bill Wise had a beautifully restored Purdey hammergun. The barrels had been sleeved with damascus tubes from a defunct gun. The patterns matched so well, that the joint was nearly impossible to detect. So much so that when it underwent proof, the proofhouse missed the sleeving and did not stamp them as such.

When I asked Bill about the missing stamp he was surprised and commented that he had never noticed.

The work was done in England, but I can not remember the shop that did the work for him.
Posted By: gunman Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/08/12 07:16 PM
Firstly the barrels would have beeen in the white,that is polished off so it was not possible to see the paterns . Secondley when a sleeved gun is submitted for re-proof it must be declared as sleeved. There was a breif period that the London Proof house stopped stamping sleeved back in the 80's I recall . Prior to this they stamped sleeved on the new tube in front of the joint . There have been the odd time that guns have been incorrectly marked but it is a rarity .
Posted By: Nick. C Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/08/12 11:30 PM
Hi, been reading with interest as I'm currently working on a nice set of damascus barrels , I was concerned about some pitting and looked into sleeving and possibly re barreling. I contacted peter Dyson(uk) about the damascus tubes on their website, I was told they are blanks so would need boring etc and striking down externally , would this extra wall thickness on the original blank enable them to be 'made' to fit most if not all guns , given that the centres and measurements mentioned earlier on this thread could be re produced ?
I have no intention of doing any barrel work other than browning , polishing and a bit of tightening up where necessary as I simply don't know enough about it and would rather leave it to the trained experts, but in cases like this, and I realise it won't be cheap, would this be the most straightforward way to go ?
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/09/12 10:19 AM
George have you woke up next to her yet ?
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/09/12 12:29 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
George have you woke up next to her yet ?


Nah jOe, still waiting for delivery. Maybe Troy can tell you some more about her finer points while we wait...Geo
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/09/12 03:26 PM
"George have you woke up next to her yet"?

JOe, I'm not going to miss too many folk around here, but you're one of them. Have a feeling George might be chawin' an arm off pretty soon.

Classic. Thanks fer the laugh.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/09/12 03:51 PM
Who EVER heard of a Boss&Co gun that was 'coyote ugly'? Mebbe I'll just stuff the holes with tinfoil and have a fancy wallhanger!. I'll give it a try at restoration first though...Geo
Posted By: lonesome roads Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/09/12 04:20 PM
George,

I would tell you to reference another thread, but it got deleted. Boy, you Boss men are touchy. Good luck on your project.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 12:10 AM
No need to let a few Boss's run you off...
Posted By: Krakow Kid Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 12:48 AM
I've just started reading this thread and I see there are 4 pages already ahead, so forgive me if my suggestion has been covered.

Although I'm as close to useless on any gunsmithing duty, I wonder if it might be possible to, instead of sleeving the barrels, to find a set of damascus barrels in excellent condition and somehow FIT them to the gun in their entirety as REPLACEMENT barrels, as it were(?)
Posted By: Rocketman Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 02:26 AM
Originally Posted By: Krakow Kid
I wonder if it might be possible to, instead of sleeving the barrels, to find a set of damascus barrels in excellent condition and somehow FIT them to the gun in their entirety as REPLACEMENT barrels, as it were(?)



KK, we have been warned by "one who knows" (yes, he really does!) that your suggestion, logical and inviting as it is, is a slippery slope frought with critical dimensions just waiting to bite you in the calipers.

DDA
Posted By: Small Bore Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 08:27 AM
It is a non-starter.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 10:17 AM
It's not too late to buy the butt ugly Boss O/U Funeral gun and put him to good use....

I'm sorry George fell victim to this gun but if he'd have been paying closer attention to the questions and responses I posted to the seller hoping to enlighten some lost sole (that the seller some how got deleted more than once mind you frown ) I don't think he'd have fallen into this pit.

George will be fine...and hopefully watch what he eats feeding off the bottom.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 03:13 PM
Strange, I do not feel like a 'victim', but then I haven't laid eyes on the gun yet. Much as I "appreciate" jOe's helpful advice, I bought the gun with eyes wide open. If it's just a wallhanger, I've probably made worse mistakes.

Barrels first, and if that does not work out, that's the end of it...Geo
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 03:42 PM
George,
You don't have to justify to anyone your desire to do this project. There are many reasons to do such a project, very few of which have anything to do with the hope of eventually making money. Maybe it's just wanting to turn another persons junk into a treasure, or shooting a quail with a fine gun that is that way because you wanted it that way. I get involved in projects because I have a habit of looking at things and seeing the finished project and not it's current sad state. Lately, I've taken on projects to distract me from recent unpleasant events in my life. I imagine other people on this board have done the same thing.
So as I said earlier George, you don't have to justify to anyone why you've taken on this project.
Steve
Posted By: Utah Shotgunner Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/10/12 11:43 PM
Originally Posted By: gunman
Firstly the barrels would have beeen in the white,that is polished off so it was not possible to see the paterns . Secondley when a sleeved gun is submitted for re-proof it must be declared as sleeved. There was a breif period that the London Proof house stopped stamping sleeved back in the 80's I recall . Prior to this they stamped sleeved on the new tube in front of the joint . There have been the odd time that guns have been incorrectly marked but it is a rarity .


You are correct about the polishing. For whatever reason, they WERE sleeved and reproofed and NOT marked as sleeved. I guess it was one of those rarities.
Posted By: wburns Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/11/12 02:49 PM
George,
I have a project gun almost exactly the same as yours. My Boss was built in 1860 and was a pinfire conversion. It is my estimation that your gun is not a pinfire conversion but rather a very early centerfire. The pinfire gun I have is more squarish than yours in the balls. Mine still has a good set of barrels but it will require a lot of work to get it back in shape. I am not doing the project for an investment, rather just to have a nice Boss I can shoot a few birds with. If I want to invest money in something that will make me money, I put that in my business. Like RocDoc says, it is a nice way to have a hobby which takes your mind off of things once in a while. Even if that only means you never get past the dreaming stage of what if. Good luck on your endeavor!
Posted By: Steve Helsley Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/11/12 03:53 PM
According to Dallas in BOSS & Co., the first Boss centerfire was No.2413 - ordered in July 1866. The gun in question is No.18xx. It should date to 1860.
Posted By: RHD45 Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/11/12 04:05 PM
Future collectors and shooters will respect you for bringing this one back to life even though it might not "be worth it." Preserving this rare example of craftsmanship is certainly going to be "worth it" to the future generations that will be privleged to see her.
Posted By: wburns Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/11/12 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: Steve Helsley
According to Dallas in BOSS & Co., the first Boss centerfire was No.2413 - ordered in July 1866. The gun in question is No.18xx. It should date to 1860.


My gun 1705 and was built in 1860. If I remember correctly their numbers did not always flow concurrently. The style of action looks more "modern" than my pinfire plus the hammers look original to his gun where as mine are not. I guess he should be able to see the welds where the pin hole was closed unless it was rebarreled. It will be interesting to hear what Boss has to say.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/11/12 06:43 PM
I don't have the gun yet and Boss&Co has acknowledged my order for a history from them, but says there's a 'delay'. I'll report more when I can. Thanks for the encouragement and information...Geo
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/11/12 07:37 PM
Could the Boss not be a Boss ?
Posted By: Mills Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/12/12 03:33 PM
Good for you taking on the project of resurrecting this old gun.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/13/12 03:08 AM
You really think he can raise the dead ?
Posted By: craigd Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/13/12 04:15 AM
Can do jOe. I like the idea of the sixteen gauge barrels if they can be balanced out to feel like the originals. I also think, go with mono steel barrels and have someone do a decent browning job on them. Then shoot the thing.
Posted By: Mike Bailey Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/14/12 08:39 PM
Geo.Newburn, here are my thoughts which are worth bugger all but may help ? About 7 years ago I wanted a nice percussion hammer gun for a little black powder fun, I bought it, in original case with some tools and the oldest shot pouch in Christendom, I even shot a couple of pheasant with it but the "breech blocks" , (I don´t know the proper words, maybe Salopian or others can help) were frozen solid so cleaning through solely the barrels into the nipples was all I could do. Before the next season I took it to a friend in a big London gun house and asked him to get it appraised, I didn´t want to blow my hand off. He asked me to visit him and he showed me a dent in the left barrel I hadn´t even noticed. Repair would have cost more than I paid for the gun (GBP1400) so I took it home and thought OK, antique. Funny thing, two years later the chap phoned me up, there is a famous Rolls Royce built for a Maharajah in India that originally had six gun holders on either side which was being used in a film and they needed period guns to go in the car. They paid me GBP2000 for the wall hanger. Thats my advice to you, here´s a couple of pics of the old Harkom













Posted By: SKB Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/14/12 08:45 PM
All it takes is money, most anything is possible......
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/14/12 11:12 PM
Originally Posted By: SKB
All it takes is money, most anything is possible......

SKB
Why couldn’t a machinist take that Boss, cut the barrels off at the end of the chambers and then use the stub as a pattern to create an identical monobloc in modern steel (similar to how stocks are duplicated). Next take the remaining sawed-off barrels and duplicate them in modern steel, but add a sleeve to the end of each barrel to reattach it to the monobloc, then the barrels could be regulated, re-ribbed with the original ribs, rebrowned, and the gun put back into service with barrels made from modern alloy steel. I’m not a machinist, is what I’m suggesting prohibitively expensive, or just a dumb idea.
Steve
George I know you want to redo them in damascus and I don't blame you, I was just think this could be a solution if the damascus chamber walls were going too thin to sleeve on damascus tubes.
Posted By: SKB Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/14/12 11:15 PM
It could be done, but as others pointed out, that stuff is very spendy.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/14/12 11:41 PM
I'm considering ALL of the great advice I'm getting here. Still do not have the gun in hand and Boss & Co is still getting up the history; when I inquired again they assured me I'd not been forgot and that information would be forthcoming.

Maybe the original buyer was the Maharajah who bought the Rolls Royce used in the movie Mike Baily sold his Harkum for. Maybe they'll make a sequel and desparately need my Boss.

One friend provided a nice thought; at least it will not become near the money pit that refurbishing an old boat would be. My 1962 Boston Whaler Montauk, presently at the repair shop, comes to mind. I like that thought, at least the Boss will not need a motor!

With the extra problems that will no doubt accrue to a damascus sleeving, I'm wavering toward a down guage sleeve, probably to 16, with steel tubes that can be browned to maybe match the chamber-block. The jury is still out on whether the old pinfire chambers will support a sleeve, but if they will steel tubes will make for an easier job...Geo

PS: Whatever else I do, if I do get it sleeved, I'll plan to shoot a limit of doves with it at least once every year!
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/15/12 10:54 AM
You still don't have it ?





(if you had bought that thing from me I'd have over night'd it free of charge and prayed like heck you didn't send it back.)
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/15/12 10:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Mike Bailey
Funny thing, two years later the chap phoned me up, there is a famous Rolls Royce built for a Maharajah in India that originally had six gun holders on either side which was being used in a film and they needed period guns to go in the car. They paid me GBP2000 for the wall hanger. Thats my advice to you



I think what you had and what George bought is like comparing Pamella Anderson in her prime to Miss Piggy after Miss Piggy had been spinning on a rotisserie for 8 hours.
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/15/12 05:22 PM
After 6 pages of jOe's comments, I'm beginng to think that maybe he is a bit envious of my gun. If you really just don't care for the gun, why not come on out and say it?...Geo
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/17/12 07:33 PM
Well, my prize arrived in good order this afternoon. Thanks to Rookhawk for a perfectly honest description of the gun and for an excellent job of communication, packaging and shipping.

I'm afraid I've bought a genuine Boss&Co wallhanger. Someone above pointed out that as a pinfire conversion, which this one is, there might not be enough metal in the chamber area to support a successful sleeve. The chamber wall at the breech is less than 1/8th inch. I think I have a Parker with muzzle walls thicker than that.

I still plan to have someone with the requisite knowledge and experience look it over for an assessment. It's possible a down-guage sleeve might work out or maybe someone else's idea of fitting new lumps on another set of barrels will be a possibility. However I suspect that other than a possible cosmetic makeover I'll never get this one shooting. The wood and the engraving are lovely. I'm disappointed in that, but I bought it as a wallhanger and that's what I suspect it'll remain, a very nice one at that!

I do have an enquiry in with Boss&Co. for a history of the gun and they indicate that they do have all the information on it. I expect the delay on their part must be that the gun has some Royal connection and they must have felt it best to notify the Queen before disclosing it all to me. Anyone know what the three plumes on the gold oval inlay in the stock may signify? I am waiting with bated breath for a discreet call from someone at Sandringham.

OK dadgummit, I take back all the snide remarks I made about jOe's input on this!...Geo

Posted By: Birdog Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/17/12 08:04 PM
The exuberant optimism of a gun nut. Good for you George.
Posted By: Mills Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/17/12 09:25 PM
What about an entirely new set of barrels? I know people who had Galazan make a second set of barrels for double guns. A set of 16 gauge IC/M for quail hunting? Not sure the cost or feasibility of that idea. If all else fails . . . a nice decoration above the fireplace in the hunting lodge.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/17/12 10:39 PM


A little paint and a quart of bondo and she'll hang with the best of them...
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 07:27 PM
I thought you might be interested to hear what results I received from Boss about the history of the gun. Their records show the gun was built in 1860 for a gentleman named Hon. Rev. J. W. Lascelles. They had no record of the center-fire conversion so I guess the buyer had someone else do that.

Just for curiosity I googled the name. Lascelles (pronounced lassals) is an old Norman French name going back to the Norman Invasion, and the family bearing the name had been prominent in England for centuries. They are in the Burke’s Peerage with a crown beside the name so I guess there is some ‘Royal’ connection after all. I knew of the ‘primogeniture’ custom of the oldest son inheriting the title and land, the second son going to the military and the third son going into the clergy.

It turned out that Preacher Lascelles who commissioned our Boss in 1860 at the age of 30, was the 6th child of the 3rd Earl of Harewood. J.W. was born in 1831 and died in November of 1901. During his time of service to the Church, he was Rector of Goldsborough for 44 years and was also Canon (whatever that is) of Ripon Cathedral. I thought the Ripon reference was pretty interesting; perhaps the original owner of our Boss actually shot it on a peg next to the Earl de Grey at some point during his service to the Cathedral bearing the Ripon name!

I’m having a ball checking out the Boss. This is the 1st Jones under-lever action I’ve seen and also the 1st non-rebounding hammer gun. The measurements shown on the Boss order page still match the measurements on the gun after 151 years. I’m going to take any renovation I do with very deliberate speed; if I can get the barrels sleeved or something so as to be useable, I'll continue to the next step.

Wish me luck, jOe!...Geo
Posted By: wburns Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 07:49 PM
Good luck! Our guns were built then in the same year. A Mr. M. Munsy commissioned my gun. Sure wish I could find out more about him. I would try like heck to find a way to refurbish it if I were you. They are cool old guns. I wish mine had the more modern looking fences like yours.
Posted By: pod Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 08:10 PM
my monies on you, there is always a way. im sure ill get a homeless joe type response from the experts for even thinking of this fix.how about making plugs that match the inner and outside contours of the barrels and have them welded in and struck to the outside contours of the barrels then have the full length 16 guage inserts welded in. then either have the barrels browned or have them finished with the damascus pattern and faux damascus in the repaired area. i can hardly wait for the pros and cons on this one.
Posted By: Bob Blair Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 08:46 PM
Good on you George. I'm looking forward to your progress report posts already!
Posted By: eugene molloy Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 08:51 PM
Quote:
Anyone know what the three plumes on the gold oval inlay in the stock may signify?
The three plumes are generally taken as being "The Prince of Wales' Feathers", an heraldic device that goes back to the thirteenth century (or before for all I know) being the badge and symbol of the Princes down the ages.

There's many a pub called the Prince of Wales, or The Prince of Wales Feathers and they usually carry a pic of the device on the pub sign, as below. I believe the true emblem has to be of three ostrich feathers within a coronet bearing the legend "Ich Dien" meaning "I serve".



As to why they appear on the escutcheon of your gun I don't know, but the Lascelles were as you say, close to the Royal family (and are now related by marriage) so it might possibly be a presentation piece. Sometimes companies are appointed as "Suppliers of Guns / underpants/ door knockers" or whatever to members of the Royal family. I suppose it might just be the Boss were Appointed and popped the symbol on.

Eug



Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 08:55 PM
The fellow that let it get in this state of disrepair should be pistol whipped....
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 08:58 PM
Originally Posted By: pod
my monies on you, there is always a way. im sure ill get a homeless joe type response from the experts for even thinking of this fix.


I'll bet after waking up next to her for a couple of days ol'George would be more than happy to make you the proud owner of said fair maiden....

feathers and all laugh
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 09:34 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
The fellow that let it get in this state of disrepair should be pistol whipped....


jOe, I got to disagree with you there. This gun has seen more action than you and me might ever hope to put a gun to. The stock, though solid and uncracked, is worn smooth from shooting. The old practice of honing the barrels every year has the muzzle ends so thin they'd cut you. The locks though are just as crisp and functional as any I've ever seen. I don't think this gun was abused, it was just used to death. The barrels are the main problem; in addition to being a little 'airy', they're shot off face to an extent I'm afraid the chamber block is going to have to be put back on face before a sleeve can be done. I think it just got shot to death and after that nobody ever thought it might be worth bringing back...Geo
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/18/12 09:44 PM
Originally Posted By: eugene molloy
Quote:
Anyone know what the three plumes on the gold oval inlay in the stock may signify?
The three plumes are generally taken as being "The Prince of Wales' Feathers", an heraldic device that goes back to the thirteenth century (or before for all I know) being the badge and symbol of the Princes down the ages.Eug


Mr. Molloy, I must apologize for the "three plumes" thing I posted in jest. I knew what the Prince of Wales' symbol was. I was just checking to see if my American friends here were on their toes. I should have figured that an Englishman would know immediately what my reference was and might be thrown off guard. I shouldn't have done that given the seriously helpful nature that this thread has followed. Actually, I am unable to tell just what the symbol is on the escutcheon, but I see no resemblace to the Lascelles' Coat of Arms...Geo
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 10:23 AM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
I think it just got shot to death and after that nobody ever thought it might be worth bringing back...Geo


"nobody" was right this time....

I would suggest you cut the barrels ahead of the fore arm and make a table lamp out of your $1000 investment...but that would be like putting salt in a wound.

Truthfully I was shocked to see the gun for sale on this site and commented on it accordingly several times hoping to save someone from making the same blunder you did of buying the name instead of the gun that you did....but the seller got my comments removed....Then kept bumping (TTT...more like floating) the terd to the top of the sale section till he got a bite.

Posted By: Rookhawk Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 02:32 PM
HomelessjOe,

You have no right nor place to cast aspersions on anyone's product in the for sale section. It is not ethical for you to play sourcing vigilante and to decide who is asking too much for a product for which you have no interest in buying, and then post your nonsense on their threads.

It is particularly unethical because those that advertise on this site are PAYING for that privilege under the assumption they are entitled to a fair marketplace. They do not wish to be subjected to your appraisals of their goods or services.

Upon selling the gun to George Newbern (selling it for less than I purchased the gun for delivered, mind you), I contacted George to make sure he was satisfied in the way the gun was represented, the proper nature of the packaging,and to make sure it was not damaged in shipment.

In short, (and I've asked you this many times many ways, as have others) why don't you cease and desist with your baseless allegations that others are "jipping" each other on a sale. It isn't right and you specifically have been attributed to the downhill direction of this site, its camaraderie, and its generally friendly tone, even omitting your unethical behavior on the sale/trade board.

Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 03:10 PM
Aawwwe jOe, not another bucket of cold water on my little dream of restoring a nice gun!

jOe's aversion to the restoration of fine old guns all goes back to the time a few years ago when he got taken to the cleaners on a sleever Purdey. He was so proud of that gun he leaned it up against trees and took pictures of it to "float in our punchbowl" here. The sleever Purdey was most likely an alright gun, but jOe took such a ribbing on this forum he got rid of it.

As for Rookhawk, he's been a perfect gentleman in this transaction. When I bought the gun he took the time to fully disclose the problems it had and share his ideas for a 'sympathetic restoration'. I have no problem whatever with what I paid him for the gun or with the way he handled the transaction.

I've thoroughly enjoyed investigating this extremely interesting and fine old gun and thinking through the process of bringing it back to a new shooting life. The provenance I recieved from Boss&Co. linking the gun to such a prominent British family during the heyday of shooting history has made the research even more enjoyable.

I promise jOe that I'll keep this project in perspective and try my best not to go broke in the process...Geo
Posted By: Flintfan Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 04:14 PM
I have to agree with Rookhawk's comments about Joe. If there was any reason to ban someone from this forum, interfering with someone's ability to sell something they own, and are honestly advertising, has to be tops on the list. But for some unknown reason this type of behavior has been tolerated for far too long.

And this doesn't even touch on all the other contentious behavior that the person in question has displayed on these forums.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 06:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern

jOe's aversion to the restoration of fine old guns all goes back to the time a few years ago when he got taken to the cleaners on a sleever Purdey. He was so proud of that gun he leaned it up against trees and took pictures of it to "float in our punchbowl" here. The sleever Purdey was most likely an alright gun, but jOe took such a ribbing on this forum he got rid of it.


This site had nothing to do with me selling the sleeved Purdey hammer gun...fact is I made several thousand dollars when I sold it.

Something you'll never do with this tOmato stake laugh
Posted By: mc Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 09:50 PM
so joe by your way of thinking if i said you weren't worth having on this BB you should leave? is it my decision to tell who stays and who goes?i wanted this boss but to many project .i think i could save this gun.
Posted By: rabbit Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 10:23 PM
I think everyone should sail as close to the wind as they think practical; we are all honourable men I'm certain--but also horsetraders. As most of us have noticed, you can flog a dead horse all you want and it still won't come up on plane. Maybe it's better to look for signs of life before saddling oneself and then having no way to get back on the right tack. With that said, I've had some nagging infatuations and paid for them as I'm sure will George so if he's happy coming out the back end of this one, he should be congratulated for being a heavy duty, no complaints, I make the weather sort of fellow. All good! Of course, some of it better than other.

jack
Posted By: Geo. Newbern Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/19/12 11:40 PM
Hey Rabbit, way too many metaphors for me, but I like the 'heavy duty' part...I think...Geo
Posted By: rabbit Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 01:24 AM
"To those the gods would destroy they give a dented Prius."

I think I might have taken a couple of 9C$ looksees myself but not a gun from a maker with the rep of Boss&Co. So far I haven't died of curosity altho a mite inpoverished thereby. If you succeed in creating an actual shooter, that will be Boss!

jack
Posted By: David Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 04:30 AM
If I had just purchased this Boss, I would be looking at how practical and how expensive it might be to have a new set of barrels made for it. There's nothing wrong with getting upside down in a project if you go into it fully informed. Enjoy the project and keep us posted.
Posted By: Hoof Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 07:17 AM
I shot the course at Hausmann's this year with a hammer LC Smith that started out looking worse than that Boss. Actually I started with two LC Smith hammer guns which both looked worse than that (other than the barrels of course).

Good Luck!

CHAZ
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 10:38 AM
Better question is how much will it cost to get a gun built around a set of locks...

Because the locks are the only thing left on this gun.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 10:56 AM
Originally Posted By: Geo. Newbern
Aawwwe jOe, not another bucket of cold water on my little dream of restoring a nice gun!


just a thought George...cover those holes with black lectri'cal tape.....then take it down to the local Cracker Barrel restaurant along with the Boss History.

Lean hard on the Boss reputation and the fact that they would no doubt be the only cracker Barrel in the world with a clAp'ed out Boss shotgun hanging on their wall.

Worth a try crazy
Posted By: pod Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 11:36 AM
joe: what is your problem????? are you just hateful?
Posted By: Dave Weber Re: MY BOSS RENOVATION ADVENTURE - 07/20/12 12:12 PM
Thread is locked...going sideways.

HomelessjOe I suggest you read the below passage again as I concur with it's general theme....If you are not buying or have not previously owned or personally examined (as in recently touched) the item for sale...don't comment on it...Simply put it's not you place to shine black light others for sale ads.

Dave Weber



"You have no right nor place to cast aspersions on anyone's product in the for sale section. It is not ethical for you to play sourcing vigilante and to decide who is asking too much for a product for which you have no interest in buying, and then post your nonsense on their threads.

It is particularly unethical because those that advertise on this site are PAYING for that privilege under the assumption they are entitled to a fair marketplace. They do not wish to be subjected to your appraisals of their goods or services.

Upon selling the gun to George Newbern (selling it for less than I purchased the gun for delivered, mind you), I contacted George to make sure he was satisfied in the way the gun was represented, the proper nature of the packaging,and to make sure it was not damaged in shipment.

In short, (and I've asked you this many times many ways, as have others) why don't you cease and desist with your baseless allegations that others are "jipping" each other on a sale. It isn't right and you specifically have been attributed to the downhill direction of this site, its camaraderie, and its generally friendly tone, even omitting your unethical behavior on the sale/trade board."
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