I feel a little odd offering this to the members but I felt angry, jealous, sick, and happy all at once and thought to share. Someone was VERY LUCKY. I meet regularly with a state law enforcement officer who has a side hobby/business dealing in vintage items. He regularly sells down on Lincoln Rd in South Beach on those fitting weekends; he enjoys dealing mostly in old porcelain/tin signs. His best deals of late were the older Penn Intl reels where he bought half a dozen for $10/ea! Being a fisherman and a Cuban he was happy! lol I would be too.

Today we had lunch and he tells me I would kill him after he relates last week's momentous loss. After hearing the story I refrained from committing the murder then suicide. Last week he went to a little attended estate sale in Pinecrest (a wealthy suburb south of Coral Gables, FL), little attended because most of the items had already been sold at an earlier date. The seller was in her mid-80's whose husband passed years ago. She finally bought a home in another state and had to be out of the house by week's end. My friend and some strangers (another couple) were the only ones there at the time looking over goods. He asked about a couple shotguns and was told the price from the lady owner. He thought it over but instead purchased a box of old wooden decoys (my friend's brother is a duck hunter). He didn't have the cash for the shotguns and wasn't confident enough to know anything about them.

About the shotguns, he observed two shotguns, and observed that one was marked Perazzi which he recognized as an over under. The second was in fact not one shotgun but was a pair inside a wooden "box." It had no leather exterior but its inside label indicated Purdey & Sons. He observed they were 12 gauge and were side by sides, fitted to the case. The case had a velour or pool table cloth inside, red in color. But he liked the Perazzi because it was an over under and because it had more extensive engraving and had a nice "silver" finish. She was asking $700 for the Perazzi. After my friend was done looking over the shotguns and placing one of the Purdey actions back in its case, the husband of the couple went over and began handling the Purdeys. My friend decided the Purdeys were cool, too, because they had those levers on top as well!

My friend instantly called and texted his brother to ask about these shotguns and if they were a good deal. My friend only knows pumps. Sadly, his brother called him back 10 hours later... My friend at that point didn't have the cash to cover the purchase of the shotguns (you'll get the price of the Purdeys in a second if you keep reading). My friend overheard the husband unsuccessfully barter with the lady owner over the shotguns but then the husband agreed to take all three shotguns and thus gave her $1,000 cash. He told his wife to stay with the shotguns until he got back from the bank with the rest of the money. My friend left leaving the lady owner and the wife of the couple at the house. Boy was he happy with that box of decoys! The decoys were "users" as they were generally soiled and shot up but he got a good deal.

So, here's the pricing the lady owner was asking on the guns: The price of the Purdeys was $2,000 total ($1k/ea) and the Perazzi was $700.

True story and believe it - it can happen. Someone here in South Florida bought the deal of the century last week.

In 1968 a friend of mine bought a 1902 Woodward with case for $35 at a garage sale in Waterloo,Iowa. He had the lady make up a bill of sale,which I saw. He had the barrels reblued and a new forend made but it was a really nice gun. He wanted $700 for it and I did not have the cash and a lawyer from Minnesota bought it.I have a letter from Jack O'Conner stating that he would not give that much for a 1902 Woodward but that many people would and that kind of kept me from borrowing the money to buy it.Keep in mind that I was making $2 an hour at a creamery at the time.Time heals all wounds.My ex would have ended up with it anyway so I don't feel too bad.

There was a similar story making the rounds in the Portland area a while back, sbout a 20 ga Purdey that had been inherited by the original owner's dissolute descendent, who then sold it for $1k so he could cover his liquor bill and a little more. I'm inclined to believe the story.

These things do happen.

There are always those who would take advantage of an unknowing widow. $20,000+ worth of Purdeys for $2,000 IMHO

George

Or $50,000. Couldn't agree more. A GD thief makes me sick at my stomach and taking advantage of a widow is the same, maybe worse!

Yer kidding, right? She set the price...Way self righteous, aint we?...

This is what happens when you say "I daren't let the wife know how much I spent on these guns" ... or... Certainly Madam I'll look at your Husbands guns and let you know what they are worth.
I normally charge $25/gun for appraisals...to which widow replies "WHAT I only want to know what they are worth.!!"

No, LD, just honest.

Best Regards, George

Hmmmm...

Wonder if da Purdys were preserved in sperm oil?

(jus covering for JOe in his absence)

Yup, it's just a fun story. The vultures had plenty of chance to swoop in before deal of the century was made. She might have dropped them off at the local pd for eventual crushing for the scrap metal, if she had to move on as the story goes.

One day in the early 1970's I was in a gunshop in Lexington KY that I frequented on a regular basis.

In walks a well dressed elderly lady with a prewar Colt Police Positive that was in the box, mint and had mother of pearl grips that had the masonic emblem inlaid in gold. She said "This was my deceased husband's revolver and I don't want to keep it around so I'm going to donate it to my church's charity auction. Could you please give me a value so I can deduct the donation on my taxes." The owner of the shop said " I'd be happy to; these guns sell for about $35.00. If I can make a suggestion, I'll give you $35.00 & you can give the money to your church & you won't have to worry about transporting that revolver" which the lady accepted.

Some people have absolutely no shame when it comes to dealing with the uninformed.

There is a common reason that we frequent this and other "gun forums" and that we read and research the guns we are interested in. That reason is that we wish to be among the "informed" when it comes to our doubleguns.

I use that informed status every time I buy or sell a gun. Sometimes I get a good deal and sometimes I get cheated; either way I freely admit to having no shame about what little knowledge of the subject I do possess...Geo

It is one thing get a great deal from a seller who has (presumably intentionally) chosen not to inform themselves, and a whole 'nother thing to steal from someone who asked for assistance.

I hope you did not buy any guns from that dealer after that - I am sure everything he sold was "orginal condition, unmolested"

If we can take the story at face value as told, the widow is reasonably well off, living in a relatively wealthy enclave. Her husband had the wherewithal to have a Perazzi and a pair of Purdey's cased. She didn't ask either the friend in the story or the couple for any advice about what the guns were worth. The price was set. Household articles had been being sold for a while and this sale took place near the end, implying others before these three had looked at the guns.

The woman, widow and aged or not, chose not to get the guns valued. She set her own price. She had them for sale in front of numerous people (we can infer) before a deal was struck by the couple. I suspect, although not part of the story, that there were other household articles of fine quality she was selling.

While I would not have attempted to haggle over price with her had it been me, I see nothing wrong with the transaction as it was described. Certainly nothing that warrants the purchaser being labeled a GD thief.

I think Mr Lomas and Mr Newbern have it right. There was no theft and no one was misled. Unless she was suffering from Alzheimer's, she would have had the knowledge and resources to get a proper appraisal. She chose not to.

Being female or being widowed is no excuse for not making some effort to be informed.

In the case of the Purdeys & the Perazzi it's simply a moral issue as the widow didn't ask a person who we would expect to be informed as to fair market value.

In the case of the Colt Police Positive it is both a legal and a moral issue since the lady asked for help from someone we would expect to be informed.

That said, I have several times paid much more than the asking price because I knew the seller had no idea of market value of an item even though I was under no obligation to inform them.

I do like to sleep well at night & I do care about my reputation as an honest person as opposed to being an opportunist!

I'll go along with that. I guess the "devil" is in making the decision in every given situation. Natural jealousy may have a lot to do with the judgementalness of others. It seems to me that one's own personal code is the best and only real guide we have...Geo

If something is offered for sale by another dealer, however woefully cheap, it's completely fair to buy it because someone who purports to be a dealer, even a regular at a flea market, is assumed to be knowledgeable.

However (and a big "however") a non-dealer does not represent as having that specialized knowledge.

It is a moral and potentially a legal issue to take advantage of someone in so flagrant a manner.

C'mon, Canvas- does the supposition that the 80-year-old widow was affluent have any bearing on the transaction?

If I had a few things around that I wanted to get rid of, for example recently we gave away some furniture. I wouldn't want someone pulling it off the truck because they felt guilty for not paying for it.

Gnomon, I'm listening to you and others and I must confess I'm not sure I would behave as the purchaser did but I'm also not sure I am prepare to pass judgement on him (which I'm usually quite happy to LOL).

My point about the widow's background wasn't that she was affluent and so could afford being ripped off but that she likely had the resources and knowledge to properly be informed as to the guns value and she chose not to. That's part of freedom. The freedom to choose what do do, whether the result is in your favour or not.

Stealing is stealing regardless of the item or the relative wealth of the victim.

There is a man in California. At a garage sale he bought several boxes of photographs and negatives. He knew enough about photography and photographers to see they were all by the same artist and they were reminiscent of Ansel Adams work. He paid under $200 if I remember correctly. After over a decade of study and research this collection was declared several years ago to represent the entire output of Adams over about a decade, work that had been thought to have been lost in a warehouse fire 60-70 years ago.

The collection was valued at around 180 million dollars. Was the man who paid $200 for those photos a thief or even morally lacking? He could have informed the seller of his suspicions.

I also have difficulty with the female widow thing. Would the judgement passed be different if it was a 25 year old male black gun enthusiast who sold the guns?

We were speaking about this event again today back at my office. We had much argument about if we were there whether or not there existed an ethical duty to inform the lady owner of the potential value in the guns. Everyone agreed that had they purchased the guns they would have very quuickly tried to resell them at huge financial gain. Interestingly, most were of the opinion they had no duty to inform her of the potential value. What convinced many (for better or worse) was:

1. She and her husband obviously were of means.
2. They were or should be informed as to the value, and
3. She likely did not save the guns for last (in presenting them for sale only on that day at that moment) and so others had ample opportunity to point it out to her (Tragedy at The Commons?)...
I note that my friend said that she had a back room of "stuff" (I didn't ask more about that) which the lady owner told everyone that if they wanted anything back there it was for free. She obviously just wanted to rid herself of as much "stuff" on that final day as possible.

Many felt that since she was sticking to that asking price, then the asking price it shall be. I, myself, was conflicted. I would have offered her more, although my motivation may well have darkly been to ensure that she would never come back at me for not having offered her a "fair" price. I told my friends that i would have gladly sold my car for the Purdeys. But I want to believe that i would not have just paid the $2000 and skidaddled, that I would have given her a larger gift if I had it.

This did happen. I refrain from giving additional particulars such as her name and address, albeit it was loosely publicized amongst those who hit these estate sales.

Some four years ago or so, one of my co-worker's neighbor's was moving and asked her to take some "dirty brown guns." She's not a gun person and asked if I wanted them. I said i really wasn't too interested, having assumed they were low quality. She called me later and said the guy was going to throw them in the back canal because he wasn't particularly fond to have anyone "bad" get them, and couldn't be bothered to take them to the police station. He merely wanted to have her take them since she was in law enforcement. She addeed that he said they belonged to his deceased father, who upon death his son just kept them under the bed and never took them out. She called me yet again and so I went a half-hr's ride and came into possession of several brown guns, the below one of them. A 1938 Win 42. When I picked the guns up and realized what these were, I pleaded with her to take at least a half-50% of any profit should I sell any of the guns and to share with the neighbor disposing of them. She later called me to say he didn't care for anything from any sale and nor did she. Later I did sell the Win 42. So it does happen!

If a 25 year old was selling the Purdey pair & the Perazzi for such a low price I would be suspicious that the guns were stolen & it wouldn't matter if he was black, white or a green man from the planet Mars.

People who buy firearms & other items at a small fraction of the market value from unknown sellers are supporting the high number of home burglaries we have in the USA. The old saying "if it's too good to be true it usually is" applies here & I think the buyer has a responsibility to do some basic investigation at the minimum. If everything checks out then you can do what ever you can live with depending on the situation.

Brittany, I was not referring to the racial characteristics of the seller but the type of guns he is interested in.

And I'm pretty sure that no one on this board thinks 80 year old women selling Purdeys and Parazzis are contributing to the rise in home burglaries.

I don't know. Maybe, but it sounds a bit bogus to me.

It seems like stories like this are always going around collecting communities. Sometimes they're about old cars, bunches of worthless baseball cards, stacks of foolish old comic books, or some old-time pocket watches with a funny spelling of the name Patrick Phillip on them.

A variation is the p!ssed of, newly ex wife who gets her revenge by dumping the former husband's beloved treasures for peanuts.

In my experience, people are way too savvy for this stuff today -- especially people with nice stuff.

OWD

I find it curious that some people appear to think it OK to rip off people of means.

Not making a judgement - it's just curious. If I was going to break into a house I would certainly try for a big house in an affluent neighborhood rather than a double-wide with K-Mart furniture but here we're talking about face-to-face transactions.

Life insurance salesmen and financial advisors prey on people of modest means who might be considered, by some, to be affluent. Not everyone can master all areas so would that make the victim responsible if some sleazebag sold them some high-cost poorly-performing funds?

OWD wrote:
"In my experience, people are way too savvy for this stuff today -- especially people with nice stuff."

Very true but sooner or later age takes its toll. My late mother-in-law, a woman of real means, had no idea what anything was worth, or even if she had it, when she was in the late 80s. Tradespeople were double and triple-billing her.

I know it happens and I still find it curious.

I'm sorry to hear that. Very unfortunate.

I have seen high-end guns move for 1/2 or less their value when people start to poach the family treasures - mom's getting forgetful, so jr. slips some stuff out of the house because he needs cash. Stuff can't go to auction because it would raise attention, etc.

Same with people facing divorce - grandpa's Purdeys get turned into cash before the soon-to-be ex wife knows what's going on.

OWD

Gnomon, I don't know if you are referring to me, but I've been explicit that I don't think stealing is okay, regardless of one's level of affluence.

As this story was reported what I see is a woman who couldn't be bothered finding out what her possessions might bring, properly appraised, on the open market. I suspect her jewellery would be appraised before such a sale, or even for insurance.

Willful ignorance for whatever reason.

My father is 86 and my mother turns 83 tomorrow. They have spent most of their lives in relative affluence, the result of my father's hard work. Nobody is ripping them off these days because they are old. They choose to inform themselves.

Now if someone reported the woman selling wasn't in full command of her faculties, that would be different.

And your comparison to a sleaze bag selling crap funds is disingenuous. All she needed to do was make a call to a legitimate appraiser, of which I'm sure a few could easily be found.

Ignorance on one side of the transaction doesn't make it immoral. Or a rip off.

Yeah, it's always great to hear people rationalize why it's OK to screw someone. "Well, the guy was really an A-hole so he deserved it when we saw his wallet lying right in the open...."

Like it matters if the old lady was well off or not. "Gee, she had lots of money anyway so why not screw her a tad?"

I hope all of you jokers who think it's OK to take advantage of the uninformed, weak, or gullible have a 19 YO daughter whose car breaks down in some far away city and gets here bank account cleaned out by some mechanic who tells her she needs $4500 worth of new muffler bearings.

My hats off to you George for being the first to call it like it is.

Creative imagination, I think I can see how it's related to the original story. I wouldn't want my daughter in that situation, but closer to the point. Would my son have the moral obligation to turn down the gift of a decent gun if he thought I was old and crotchety, but turns out I still had some means.

There's a big difference between an internal moral dilemma decision and fending off a predator. If my son accepts a gift from me, did he 'rip me off' or 'screw me', or are there exceptions to black and white.

Interesting thread, reminds me of a short article in Guns and Ammo about 35 years ago with a twist, the writer was passing through a small town (can´t remember where, somewhere in Tennesee I think) and he walks past a pawn shop. He looks in the window at the various stuff and then to his amazement sees, in the corner an absolutely mint Churchill XXV, case next to it. He walks in the shop and has a look at various little things, not wanting to give the game away, he buys a penknife for a few dollars and a book for a few more then innocently asks the old boy behind the counter, "How much for the old shotgun in the window ?"..........old chap replies "20,000 $ and not a penny less"....."how do you think I sell so many penknives and old books ?" best, Mike

I think you liberal Democrats often refer to this as redistribution of wealth.

There is only one reason I ever pull over and go to an estate sale or yard sale, and it is not because I need more stuff. I am looking for that "deal of the century" So the next time I see items that I feel are undervalued I will advise them to increase their price. I will need a little practice.
" Mama I see you have $12.00 marked on this bamboo fly rod". Yes that’s right, I guess I would take $10.00." "No Mama, No mama, I will not buy it for less than $150.00". I only have $85.00 on me but if you will hold this money I'll run home and get the other $65.00. ( Spontaneous applause breaks out by the other neighbors)

Hell, I just figured out half of my neighbors are thief’s. I had a barely used Chia pet I paid 18.99 off of the late night shopping channel. When I had a yard sale I mark it for 10 cents. A guy after studying it for about 1 hour and 35 minutes said " Will ya take a nickel". I guess he was just “ Vulturing” Just hanging around wait for a weak moment.
So I guess if you screw a retired guy out of a nickel or a widow woman out of $50,000, even though 1000 people before you had a chance to buy the item, you are a thief.
So is it a dollar value or do you go by a percentage to determine if it is a deal of the century or theft?
Now if my wife took the Chia pet to a Vintage Chia pet collector and asked for the real value, and he told her it was worth 10 cents when in reality it was worth $10.00 then that is theft by deception.

This discussion, like a lot of others, has taken place here in the past, and will again.Its easy for the high roaders to wax lofty about it. When faced with a real situation,rather than the opportunity to criticize anothers decision, NO ONE can say what they would do, until the moment of truth....sfact....

treat others, as you would like to be treated...

what goes around, comes around...

craigd wrote:
"There's a big difference between an internal moral dilemma decision and fending off a predator. If my son accepts a gift from me, did he 'rip me off' or 'screw me', or are there exceptions to black and white."

Nobody's talking about gifts-that's a whole different matter. If you have all our marbles and give your son a shotgun, that's a very nice present. I gave two of my nephews each a sidelock. It was just a couple of presents.

canvas, I think you and I largely agree but you wrote:

"All she needed to do was make a call to a legitimate appraiser, of which I'm sure a few could easily be found.

Ignorance on one side of the transaction doesn't make it immoral. Or a rip off."

An earlier post described the woman who took a handgun for an appraisal and got $35. My experience is that such behavior is not uncommon. I am a serious antiques and art collector and the BS I hear from these people is amazing.

And yes ignorance on one side of the transaction can make it not only immoral but also illegal. What the Colt dealer did was illegal in some (maybe all) states.

It's hard to regulate morality.

And easy to claim to be high and mighty....

Wow! Old' Ed is spot on. It's the Golden Rule boys. If you come on to a situation like the one described just treat the lady like you'd want your own dear mother treated. Pretty simple stuff really.

A number of years ago, I was walking thru the Vegas show carrying a Spanish sidelock over my shoulder to sell. I had a few nibbles here and there. Then a short, fat, dealer, maybe in his late 50's at the time (known to many here and "respected"), behind a table of guns asked me to come over. To paraphrase he said something along the lines of: "Son," while closely eyeing the gun over my shoulder, "...you know the gun market is about to take a big hit. You'd be smart to get what you can out of your guns. Blah, blah, blah...(more condescending references to my age or knowledge even though he was only 10 yrs my senior and had no idea if I was more or less knowledgeable about guns or anything else than he)" "I'd give you $XXX (less than a third of the value) for that old import gun...and son, you'd be advised to take it and be thankful...blah, blah, blah..."

I gave the old con artist a curious look, holding back from wrapping the finely struck thin barrels around his fat neck for taking even the few seconds of my life, told him the cowboy hat was "...just a hat" and moved on.

I sold that gun not more than 1/2 hour later for more than 3 times what that ... that dealer "offered".

Was he taking a 'legitimate shot'? Was he looking to take advantage of an uninformed seller? Or was he trying to con an informed seller that the situation is different than the reality?. You be the judge. I know I've made up my mind. I'd never buy a gun from him.

Gnomon wrote:
"An earlier post described the woman who took a handgun for an appraisal and got $35. My experience is that such behavior is not uncommon. I am a serious antiques and art collector and the BS I hear from these people is amazing.

And yes ignorance on one side of the transaction can make it not only immoral but also illegal. What the Colt dealer did was illegal in some (maybe all) states."

Gnomon what you are referring to are people who may be considered experts and professionals who when asked for an opinion/appraisal knowingly give false advice for personal gain. I am as appalled by that as anyone else.

A few have noted on here the level of knowledge we may have when compared to the general public on the subject of guns. I know that if ANYONE asked me for my best estimate of a value for a gun, that's what I would give, even if it was something I wished to acquire.

To me, there is a big difference to being asked to help arrive at a valuation and buying something for the price asked, after many others have passed over it, when the owner likely had the means and awareness that an appraisal might be in order and chose not to do it.

At the same time, I sure appreciate Ed's contribution to this discussion.

Perhaps it's because I have earned my living my entire life by buying and selling but at what point does it become my obligation to insist the seller become better informed? If the fair market value was 20K is it when they are up for sale at 15K? 10K? 5K? 2K?


Gnomon, I should have written "Ignorance on one side of the transaction doesn't necessarilly make it immoral. Or a rip off."

I don't have any issues with my morality when I sell a gun---I lose on every one I sell. Maybe that's why I can't sleep.

These things happen.

A friend of mine went to a garage sale on Australia and bougt a load of fishing tackli in tackle boxes.

One of them had a paper bag full of uncut gemstones the deceased had hidden there.

He got the stones cut, made a good deal of money.

On the other hand a 'friend' of the family came to see my mother's books when she was clearing out my dad's study to make space. He was a book dealer. Told her nothing was of any value but he'd give her £25 for a few he quite liked.

Took and original, signed German copy of Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler. It turned up in auction a couple of months later with a low estimate of £125,000. Some friend.

G, the story doesn't give enough background to determine if you were in a fit state of mind or if your nephews tricked you when you were vulnerable. What if I wrote, my son knew that his 'gift' was originally stolen. The piece I quoted was akin to, my two hundred dollar pump gun goes down on a big hunt and the local bubba wants seven hundred to fix it and salvage my big dollar trip.

In my story, I set the price of the gift, just as is the original story. The seller set the terms and she was under no moral or legal obligation to seek out an appraiser. What if the seller knew getting full value meant months of waiting on just the right buyer, but she needed it gone today because of her desires. Why might she give away boxes of tattered clothes that have real sentimental value with no scrutiny, but someone rocking back on their chair spots a crime if the gun has more value.

A gift is a completely different issue. The old rich lady was not endeavoring to give anyone a gift as far as I can tell.

A $19 Chia pet for 10 cents is quite different....first, the dollar amount is insignificant to even a person living at poverty levels. Second, it is reasonable in an open market situation that the person selling a secondhand Chia pet might only get 10 cents. Not so for a $1000 Purdey.

High and mighty? No, just half-assed honest. In real life? I'll give you an example - I bought a load of used but good 426 Hemi parts in 1997 from a widow in Chicago. She did not know what they were worth and asked me for my opinion. My opinion, based on the market which I was well aware of, was $5000. I told her so. Sh was overjoyed and told me she would be glad to get $4000 to give me a break for being honest. We wound up splitting the difference and she had $4500 in her hand. There is no doubt I could have lied and told her $1000 and she would have taken it. I knew that then and I know it now.

I have a view of life....someday, the guy who goes through life looking to take every advantage he can - the opportunist - will be sitting on a doctor's table, far too young to have stomach cancer. He'll be listening in a most perplexed manner as the doctor tells him he has stomach cancer but good. What goes around comes around.

Greg, the difference between your personal scenario with the widow and the hemi parts and the Purdey's, in my mind, is you knew what you were looking at AND WERE ASKED.

There is a big difference between BS'ing when asked and paying the asking price for something when presumably, according to the story, many have already looked at and passed on the items.

That's not manipulative, it's not lying, it's not stealing and it's not trying to take every advantage one can. Suggesting others on this board aren't honest when comparing different scenarios isn't honest.

I do not know, but for sure my Country would be a much better place to live if more people beheve like GregSY.

Best,

I get a lot of folks asking me about their Lefever shotguns. The 2 most frequent questions are how old is it and how much is it worth.
For those of you who know Lefevers there is no firm answer to meither question. The dates found on the internet including the LACA site are extrapolations and at least 1/3 of the guns were made out of sequence.
Everybody knows the variability in gun values, especially based on descriptions and photos rather than hands on examination.
However, I try to give as close of an approximation as I can based on the information provided. Sometimes I would be interested in the gun, more frequently not because the high grade guns don't come by very frequently. I will not low ball them even if I or somebody I know is interested because they are asking me for information based on my reputation.

On the other hand, if a gun is offered with a predetermined price tag, whether through a dealer, a pawn shop, or a yard sale or at auction and my opinion is not requested I feel no obligation to "educate" the seller who has placed a price on it.

I don't know if everybody would see the difference between the above scenerios. A dilemma happens if somebody presents a gun for a price and asks "is that a fair price?". To me that depends on whether they are asking me in my capacity with the Lefever Collectors or if they don't know me from Adam, as if I just walk into a pawn shop or a yard sale off the street. In that case I have to let my conscience by my guide. If its a business like a pawn shop I feel it is their obligation to know the value. If it were a widow's yard sale I would probably feel differently.

I wish I could find me an old widow woman to screw out of a Purdey.

In my neck of the woods local gun shops only tend to deal in modern sporting firearms and have little knowledge or dealings of older military arms or quality doubles.
In fact they generally ring me to come and give them some idea of value.
I always give my honest opinion,irrespective of whether or not I am interested in it.
That said there is a big difference between “what's your opinion on this guns value” and “the seller wants $200 for it,are you interested”

As it happens I know a chap who bought a fine English gun from a dealer that had no idea what it was worth.
To him it was just another “old gun”,albeit quite a nice looking one.
It was later resold for many times the purchase price.
How many would feel sorry for the dealer?

Dr Bob, very well expressed. For me, the issue is was I asked. If asked I'll give anyone, regardless of their circumstances, the best, most accurate answer I can.

I certainly would not and have stated it many times that someone who puts himself forth as a dealer should have the ability to price items. If not it's just too damn bad. It is the dealer's job.

I'm dealing with this scenario right now. A friend met a guy at a gun shop who was trying to sell a few guns, and the shop had no interest at all. My friend referred the guy to me as an "expert" (of sorts) and told the guy we might be interested in some of the guns. Seller has no idea of the guns' current value and doesn't even remember what he has, except for the first three pieces. Pretty ordinary guns (although one is a post-'64 Win 94), but he thinks they are golden because he bought them all new in 1968 and they are allegedly unfired in the original boxes. Doesn't sound like any of them are collectible, so I'm pulling numbers off GunBroker and GI to explain to him that none of this stuff is actually selling these days for anything near the asking prices. We'll probably try to buy a few pieces at what we think are fair prices, and the seller will reject our offer. We'll still have our cash and he'll still have the guns he wants to sell. Nobody wins, but at least he gets good info on the value of his stuff. It's up to him what he does with that info.

I actually agree with Gnomon. I need a drink.

Here's a flip-side.
This happened to me about two months ago and has caused my wife to cease speaking with a neighbor. Our across-the-street neighbor is what i refer to as a pretty mid-50's lady, NYC barrio-type accent, with a streak of independence and vigor, who was married to a wonderful gentleman about 15 years her senior. They met at a local bar here after he'd retired from a career in Wall Street. I've taken him shooting revolvers in the past. Genuinely great guy. But he liked to drink often and passed away suddenly in January from liver cancer. Soon thereafter a "friend" started to move in, who remarkably looked like a younger thinner taller version of her deceased husband. I don't mention all this to slight her, but to give you some color! We've only spoken to her some dozen times and been invited over once for a Xmas party.

So about two months ago she visited and we expressed again our condolences. She complained that her deceased husband had left her in a bad situation and that she had had to do a lot of "cleaning up" from the mess. She asked if i could come over and look at "his guns." I agreed and walked over with her. As we walked up the stairs she told me she needed money and wanted to sell them quickly, and again that she needed the money and perhaps I would be interested in buying them.

I sit in her office bedroom and she presents me a Winchester 101 O/U skeet in case, exc++ condition. She then presents to me a beautiful pristine Colt Diamondback 38 spcl revolver. I honestly didn't know the values of these guns however knew for guessing they were somewhere around $1000 apiece but I was quickly realizing I was in an excellent position to buy them low if I wanted. Of course I wouldn't disrespect her deceased husband and her situation, and so my angel told me to do the right thing and I first said I didn't know the values and then thanked her for the offer to purchase them, but excused myself saying I would need to talk to my wife first (yeah, right!). I told her I would get her values in a day or so.

I checked all the usual internet auction sites etc. I wrote up a 2-page document sharing my honest findings of the spread and what was asked and what she may reasonably expect for a quick sale. I also told her she would likely lose profit by selling directly to a gun store or sending these to auction. I also told her about consigning. And about simply selling directly to an in-state resident to maximize the gain. I explained these all take time, whether listing the items on a website (which I offered to help her with) or to shop around for the best price, or to wait on a consignment sale or a pawn shop sale what have you, and especially a brick-mortar auction house. And I mentiond that she could also ask me again if I wished to buy them in that I would check with my wife and give her an offer.

I placed the letter in her mailbox, fully expecting she would contact me to thank me for my help and honesty and IMPORTANTLY I felt she might ask me if I wanted to buy them for a reasonable price. I was prepared to pay 80% of their "value" (as deemed by the average gunbroker site or sumsuch valuation to my best ability...).

I never heard back from her. Until when my wife stopped her in the street one day driving by to chat, she saw me, and only out of embarrassment then did she thank me for the letter.

We saw her about two weeks ago and I asked what happened to the guns? She told me she consigned the guns to (what I know of as one of the most expensive) gun store in the tri-county area! I was shocked a little - felt like she used my letter to shop the best price (which was the intent right?)

In this situation, my wife and I both felt I was taken a little advantage of to do all the homework to maximize her profit. It was obvious she did not need the money right away since those guns are going to sit for a very long time in that store's shelves. On the other hand i did do my duty and helped her, but again i can't help but feel used a little for not having been asked to buy them again. If she had appeared to have been cosmetically more loving of her deceased husband when he was around and had spoken more well of him, I probably would have cheered her for trying to get the very best top dollar price for the guns. I guess in the shadows of my mind I believed I might have yet still been able to have gotten a fair deal on some nice guns, but lost out to the profit-motive in all of us. It's a conflicting thought!

I once screwed a neighbor lady out of a single barrel 16. It did not lock up tight and was not the prettiest thing. but I was young, and would shoot just about anything back then.

Sounds like the perfect widow to screw...out of a something.

These stories tend to be urban legends or myths most of the time. Sure, someone will recall the exact same story and swear that it is true. Perhaps it is a true story. I just never seem to come across a ten grand gun, car or piece of art that is selling for 5-10% of its value.

Many see a moral question in these "myths". Should you inform a seller of the value of a item? Just a personal choice based on circumstances and how you were brought up to many people. I would but that is must me. I do not take advantage of widows, orphans or children. Most people who try to outsmart a dealer or professional find out that most of the times they are not as smart as the pro. How many dealers stay in business if they can not recognize the value of what they are selling. None in the long term.

If you want to not have your "widow" sell your guns for less that a fair price make arrangements before you die or just out live her. Put it as part of your will or attach notes to your life insurance policy in a lock box. It can be very simple or very complex. Mine is a ledger that has a complete inventory of my stuff, guns as well as other things that will have to be disposed of after I die. Serial numbers, purchase price, estimated current value as of a certain date and how to sell the items. Some go to dealers or auction houses and some go to family or close friends.

We all die so you might as well make plans. If you figure out how not to die please keep that information to yourself. My wife might hurry my demise if she thought I had figured out something like that.

I'd hope the dealer could seek out advice for specialty areas outside their expertise. Isn't the old widow the 'dealer' of her estate sale. Can she set prices as should be her ability, or is it too damn bad if she can't.

The only conclusion possible is that she was a communist or she would have charged market value.

Just my opinion, but I do not believe this affected the price she put on the guns. This seems to be off topic, so it comes as a surprise to be the only possible conclusion, but I suppose some folks may find it important.

Around 30 years ago while attending a small local gun show, I was shooting the breeze with a dealer friend who specialized in Civil War arms. Up walked an elderly gentleman, clearly out of place and nervous, clutching a brown paper bag. He offered the contents of the bag to my friend for his appraisal and stated he wanted to sell it. The pistol was a minty WWI German Luger that his recently departed brother had brought back as a war trophy, from WWI. Since the mere presence of the gun in his house gave him the creeps, he wanted to be shut of it. My friend passed on it and indicated me as being someone who might want it. When asked, the old guy admitted he hadn't a clue of its value- didn't even know what it was, calling it an old 'war gun'. There I am, on the spot and desperately wanting it, but without the means to buy an expensive gun. I allowed as how nice Lugers were fetching several hundred dollars (at the time), and all-matching pristine examples with vibrant colors such as this a lot more. His response was one of gratitude for my honesty, and said if I wanted it for $100 it was mine- he just wanted rid of it. I couldn't get my wallet out fast enough. Luckily I had a hundred and a couple of twenties. It was one instance where honesty was the best policy. (He did let me treat him to a nice lunch next door, where he gave me the back story of his brother and where he supposedly acquired the 'war gun'. It seems the brother was a Marine at Belleau Wood...)

Ahem, my story about this event was not a "Myth."

If anyone doubts the veracity of the story - I invite you to directly call the Florida Highway Patrol officer who was at the house in Pinecrest. Ask away any questions you have about the Purdeys, their condition, the case etc. in the house which sold to the couple. He could use some educating about such highest-end shotguns and perhaps you can make your number available to him, too so that he can call upon you should he not know what it is before his eyes! Send me a PM as needed.

A case in point that I know to be true:

A guy from out of state walks into a South Carolina gunsmith's shop with an old Fox shotgun that has a stock, broken at the wrist and badly repaired. He asks the gunsmith how much it will cost to have a new stock made and is given the price. The gunsmith then checks the gun over a little more and goes to his referance library. He then tells the guy that not only does he have a rare "Super Fox HE Grade" but that he has the one and only Nash Buckingham's "Bo-Whoop" (that later sold at auction a while back for over 200K)

My point is, the gunsmith could have kept quiet about the suspect Fox and offered the guy a thousand, which he probably would have accepted, and kept the rest. So, to me, it doesn't make any difference between the above and the widow in the foregoing. Both were unknowledgeable as to what they had. The guy met up with an honest gunsmith & the lady met up with a thief IMHO. Neither seller was a "dealer" who should have known what they had which, probably, would have made them "fair game" IMHO

Best Regards, George

OK, about 10 years ago i needed money and I had a wonderful (to me)collection of firearms, mostly hadguns, but some nice rifles and shotguns as well.

About 40 guns.

I didn't have the luxury of time to advertise, and who the hell wants to advertise they have a gun collection these days anyway?

I sold them all to one dealer over a couple weeks. He seemed to be the most respectable one I could find at the time. And the song and dance it came down to was that I basically had to almost beg him to screw me out of their real value.

I got so sick and tired of the tune "Gee, I don't know, maybe a couple hundred bucks less" or some variation thereof. And offstage, he had his cadre of "experts" advising him on the old doubles. Guys whose only experience with doubles was a locally made Savage Fox they saw once before. You know, guys who, when it came to appraising guns were basically stuck in 1962.

I can still shed a tear when i think back on some of those beauties. But hey, I needed the GD money! So I willingly got screwed with the lights on and both eyes open. Believe it or not.......It happens!

ps - oh yeah - what goes around comes around? I'm still waiting

My greatest fear is that when I'm gone my wife will sell my stuff for what I TOLD her I paid for it...
What do you think about declining markets? Some are lamenting that Mannlicher Schoenauers and some other older guns are down a good 15% on price now, and may drop more as us old farts that want them get shorter in supply. Still want to pay the going rate today under those conditions? The going rate may be a mile higher than the price the person paid back when. Who is competent to set the rate of inflation on such an item. What about rifles cleaned with poor technique and the consequent ruined accuracy?! Easy to get moral over others purchases. Caveat emptor still reigns.

Many markets are down in almost every area. A 15% decrease in most markets would be a miracle recovery. Real Estate in my area is still down about 40%. Many stocks are still down and CD's are paying so little that you might as well go back to keeping money under your mattress. Timing markets once again has proved impossible. Guns are hobbies not investments so if you break even on your hobby you are doing great.

Do not leave things to chance. A simple listing of what you have and how best to sell them off will be worth its weight in gold. Only you know what you have and you might as well start planning for your end. We all go there in the end. If you do not want you wife to know now what you have you can seal the list and leave with your lawyer or in a safety deposit box that she is informed of after your death.

I have reduced my own gun collection by over 50% so far. That is over a hundred guns that my wife will not end up selling for ten cents on the dollar. I made money on them only because i owned them so long that the market price today is still more than what I paid years ago. That money will go to Wellesley this year to pay for another years college expenses. Wonder if they would give me a discount if they knew I was using gun money to pay their bill?

I told my wife I fully expected she would meet another after I am gone but I don't want him to enjoy my Purdey, so it should be sold. She said not to worry he would need cast on for a left handed shooter.

And George is still going on about that "story" of the lost Bo Whoop surfacing. I'd love to know the real story on that gun.....

DLH

Destry: The "real story" of "Bo Whoop" has been told & retold. Is "analogy" too big a word for you?

Best Regards, George

yeah, right - they might actually send your daughter home! Perhaphs your daughter should ask to start a trap and skeet team there - I would love to hear that reaction.

Good one!!!

These women are always planning ahead.