I need help with information and value on an Ithaca double barrel, serial number 463xxx and marked "28" on the inside receiver flat. The barrels are marked "4" and "4". It has a three position safety/barrel selector and ejectors. The right barrel says "New Ithaca Field Grade." It seems to have most all of it's blueing and the receiver is only worn a little on the bottom edges where it was carried. The wood and checkering are sound. I posted some pictures (I hope) and can take others if needed. I would appreciate any help you can provide. Thanks, Bruce - bmcd2@newnorth.net
http://www.pinegroveestatesales.com/guns/Ithaca5.JPGhttp://www.pinegroveestatesales.com/guns/Ithaca1.JPGhttp://www.pinegroveestatesales.com/guns/Ithaca3.JPG
If you have the Winter 2000 Double Gun Journal, please take a look at my article on NID 28 gauge guns. I collected small bore Ithaca's for many years. Your gun is made somewhere around 1935-8, maybe sold a little later as these guns were very slow sellers during the Depression. Only 400 or so were made in all grades. About 295 were Field Grades. Your gun is nicely optioned with SST, SAE and a factory beavertail forend. The choke markings 4 and 4 mean full and full--however many of the 28 ga guns were marked 4 and 4 and then bored out to suit the buyer. You did not post the barrel length. The majority were 26 inch guns. 28 inch guns are very rare! I would need to see more pix, but your 1st picture looks like the colors have been redone! Perhaps the the gun has been fully restored. I can't tell from the pix you posted. Your gun is valuable and I would place a retail price on the gun of $5-6K. Let me know if you need any further info.
I'll see if I can help by posting the pics.
The ejectors and factory single selective trigger would make it a rare find in a already rare 28 ga NID configuration.
The bad news is that the frame has been torch colored to fake the factory color casehardening. To get to those colors with a torch, the temperature had to get up around 500-600F. The resulting problems are:
possibility exists that the internal springs and other parts have been tempered and may cause problems. Only a teardown and examination of the parts for heat tempering will determine this.
The frame casehardening will be lost to the torching.
The stigma of torching a gun devalues a gun significantly.
Even in the last years at Fall Creek water Power Lot No. 6, the custom shop torched guns sent back for refurbishment. Happened to a frind who sent back a 3E vent ribbed 20-gauge for the addition of a beavertail and a refinish.
I recall a 3E 20 ventrib at Kesselrings a few yrs ago that was pretty used up. I passed on it. Probably should have bought it.
Researcher, Have you been to Kesselring's lately?
chuck: your automatic assumption that the case colors on this gun were restored using a "torch" is quite presumptuous and indicative of ignorance and prejudice...and your assertion that the internal parts may have lost their hardness, assumes the receiver parts were not removed prior to the recoloring process... another absurd assumption on your part, don't you agree?
possibility exists that the internal springs and other parts have been tempered and may cause problems. Only a teardown and examination of the parts for heat tempering will determine this.
I think Chuck was quite clear in his assessment.
chuck: your automatic assumption that the case colors on this gun were restored using a "torch" is quite presumptuous and indicative of ignorance and prejudice.
Ed, as usual you are full of crap. There is nothing "automatic" about Chuck's observation. Examination of the pics indicates a torch recoloring. It is a reasonable conclusion, and probably correct. Nothing presumptuous about it. Nor is it indicative of ignorance or prejudice. It is, rather, an indication of knowledge and some level of expertise. We have no idea at this point whether the recolor was done at the Ithaca factory using their standard low-temperature coloring method, or if it was done at high temperature by some hack. If the recolor is Ithaca factory work, the gun should be OK. If it is a hack job such as some of the guns you seem to sell, then the jury is out as to the condition of the internals. If a high temp recoloring then the case hardening is probably toast (pun completely intended).
"We have no idea at this point whether the recolor was done at the Ithaca factory using their standard low-temperature coloring method, or if it was done at high temperature by some hack"...
...my point exactly.
The good news is that the frame can be annealed and recasehardened properly.
I'll stand by my assessment that the only way to know for sure if the internal parts have been tempered inappropriately is to disassemble the gun and examine it. I'll also stand by my assessment of the temperature required to get the colors in the picture.
The gun is very rare and I think it's worth re-doing it right.
chuck: you are certainly entitled to express your opinion, as we all are on this forum.
my opinion regarding this gun is to leave it as is...
to subject the receiver metal to temps in the neighborhood of 1500 degrees F aint worth the risk of damaging the receiver beyond repair. this is true, particularly, because we really do not know what has been done this receiver after market, now do we?
chuck: a question:
how does one determine if internal receiver parts have been tempered inappropriately? one of the reasons i ask is that i have read other threads where the high heat bone charcoal guys discuss wether a receiver should be rehardened assembled or unassembled. seems to me that if you cooked it assembled, you could do some damage to the internal parts?
Ed,
The discussion you cite was about assembling the triggerplate on the frame, not the moving parts.
To tell if the internal parts may have been affected, I'd look for tempering colors on the parts.
chuck: if you find tempering colors on internal parts, would you suggest rehardening with kasenit of some other product?
Ed,
The springs contain plenty of carbon and don't need to be casehardened, nor do they do well with that process. The other internal parts likely have high enough carbon for hardening without carburizing and quenching (casehardening). They likely can be simply brought up to their critical temp (1450F ish) and quenched in oil, polished to see the silver color, then heated to 300-400F and quenched again, depending on desired hardness.
I was in Kesselrings back in March. Didn't see anything I'd make safe space for.
chuck: in a previous post, you suggested that temper colors are achieved by using a torch to heat the receiver to from 500 to 600 degrees F...
how does the torch mechanic determine that he has heated the metal to that temperature range?
and are any chemicals used in the process or is it just heat?
I am not sure the photos posted are good enough to say if this gun's cc were restored by torching or not. A lot of "glare or flash on that close-up.
Ed,
There are many common sources of tempering color references. Machinery Handbook and Marks have it as well.
The primary chemicals in this particular job are:
C2H2, O2, Fe, C, S.