Where are all the light weight English guns that Turner and Greener made that were sub 6 lbs? Where they too fragile to last for over 100 years or are they just an attractive item and do not remain on the market long.

Mal MacGregor shoots a wonderful little sub 6 lb. 12 ga. English gun. I held it and swung it a few times a year ago and was astounded with it. It feels like a little 28 ga.

Some french guns are super light and not fragile. I have a unnamed French 12ga that weighs 5# 12 oz with 27 1/2" bbls. It's a boxlock. There are no lightening cuts in the frame and its steel.
I can't figure out how they did it. The only bad thing is it kicks like hell and is a knuckle buster.

Light weight English guns regularly appear for sale in the UK. My Charles Lancaster Twelve Twenty's weigh approx 6lbs and the Churchill Premieres I have weigh less than 6 1/4 lbs. These guns are used regularly for driven game shooting and are a delight to use and carry to the peg. I do not think that lightweight guns wear out any quicker than conventional guns and due to their fantastic level of workmanship and quality of materials used and will last eaqually long as heavier guns Many of these guns suffer from having the stock shortened to suit a youth or lady shooter. Nearly all the lightweight guns offered for sale seem to have been cut and then lengthened with wooden extensions.
Bob

I have a pair of Army & Navy BLE's from the 30's, 28" barrels, that are just under 6 1/4. Not that there aren't Brit lightweights out there, but those guns are definitely on the light end of the scale. And I once owned a Lindner Daly that hit the scale at just a bit over 5 3/4. French guns are often very light, as noted above--especially those with plume ribs. Alex Martin made some "ribless" 12's that are very light.

In my humble opinion, balance is much more important than weight.
A well balanced gun, although heavy, will appear much lighter than it actually is, because of it's handling qualities.

Regards,

redgrouse

Of course British guns are generally made lighter than American guns, but here's a couple of very light American guns.

Charles Green, Rochester , NY, hammer gun, 12 ga. 28" 5# 14 oz.

Sneider, Baltimore , Md., hammerless, 20 ga, 26" 5# 7 oz.

The Green hammer gun really seems unusual.

I have a 60s Spanish 28" 12 at 5 lb 14 oz with a 14 1/8 lop. Great copiers of the English.

In my opinion they exist but I think they are so coveted and valued that few ever come on the market.

In answer to your question as to how long they will last . It will depend on how much they have been used ,abused and maintained .They are not guns for heavy continuous shooting ,game guns as opposed to clay guns .Guns of this sort were made with the idea of light loads [1oz].Lancasters and Grant 12/20's were a stronger action than say a Turner "Featherlight" or guns produced by the likes of Palmer Jones and Hellis for example .Like the 2" guns they were cut to a minimum ,barrel walls struck down to .025" actions lightened as much as was dared and stocks hollowed out .

Thanks for the replies. Good comments. I just like the idea of using light 12ga loads (7/8 or 1oz) in a gun that is as light as most sub bores.
What is the relative cost of these light weights to a regular weight gun of same type and quality?

I have a Spanish Arrieta 2", straight stock, splinter fore-end,
29" barrels, 15 3/8" stock, weight 6lbs 1oz and mfg'd in 2000. My gun must have been one of a pair as it has No.1 gold inlays on the barrels, action, and fore-end. My gun is designed to shoot the 7/8oz loads as were the British 2"

When purchased, the stock was super straight and choked tight and tighter.
Best - George

Speaking of 2" 12 gauges Steve Barnett had an Alex Martin that weighed in at 4lbs 14oz:

http://www.stevebarnettfineguns.com/frm_inventory1.htm

Sold now.

Edit: Here is the correct link: http://www.stevebarnettfineguns.com/asp-bin/Detail.asp?ID=7662

When I was at the Southern, I met the Gentleman from Virginia who purchased that Alex Martin from Steve Barnett. He let me put a few rounds through it on the 5-stand. Wow it a was sweet!

Adam

I can only provide answers for two sub six pound guns, a Lancaster and a FW Lindner. They are the only ones I have bought and I bought both for around 5,000 each. I bought the Lindner last year and the Lancaster three years ago.

The Lindner is without question, my favorite pheasant gun. A little wand of 5 pounds and eleven ounces, she is as quick and as deadly as a viper.

With that said, I think that if you looked for well balanced guns under 6 and a half pounds you would find many that can be had reasonably and truly define light 12s. I have several and see a number of them offered for sale each year to where I do not think you would have a hard time acquiring a really light 12.

Joe in Charlotte has a neat little Turner that he hunted in Scotland last year. I covet the gun.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post243811

Those Spanish 2" guns are nice, but they average from 1/2 to 3/4 of a pound heavier than the original Brit 2" guns.

What London makers represent the best "value" in light 12's today? I am looking for a well made London SL and am struggling with ranking the makers. I just can't afford to make a mistake and pay too much for a gun.

My Turner lightweight is 5 lb, 11oz. The barrels are 28" damascus with walls around 28 thou. It is 1/4 and 3/4 choked. The stock is 14" with heel and toe plates.
The MOI matches a modern 2" gun, only my gun is from 1894 (40 years before the 2" craze in the 1930s). I use RST 1 oz 6s or 8s for hunting. It is not a gun you want to shoot a round of clays with. Hunting with it is a joy. Easy to carry and fast as the dickens to mount.
My gun is the scalloped stock version. Kirby Hoyt had a higher grade gun with ejectors that had the stock hollowed instead of the more commonly seen versions like mine. He had it at the Vintage Cup several years ago. It went to the west coast with him and sold quickly. He may have a lead on that gun.
We also have a Turner scalloped stock 16 hammer gun with the Carolina Vintagers. It has an earlier SN than mine.
I know of 2 Alex Martin ribless guns, a 12 and 16 that could be bought. They are not advertised publicly.
If you're interested I can contact the owner. (of course someone can get Dave his $10)
The lightweight guns are out there, they just have a really short shelf life. I never got to see the 2" ejector that Barnett had at the Southern, but I did hear about it.

Joe

I've never owned a British gun, but my 30" 12ga Lefever [seen below[ at 6.6lbs was relatively inexpensive, but it was in rough shape when I got it and I've put a lot of work into it. It's a death ray on pheasants (I've yet to miss one with it), which has upped its value to me considerably, even though I generally prefer non-original guns that I can customize.