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Posted By: max Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 07:41 PM

There is a model 12 I may have an opportunity to buy. The receiver was engraved and I suspect when it was blued, it was done at the wrong temperature as the finish has that purple color.

My question is, can this be redone with the correct blue color or has the damage been done?

Regards,

Max
Posted By: Kensal Rise Re: Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 08:50 PM
Max:
There is no damage other than simple bodgery. I assume there's no buffing issues to deal with, so Simmons can fix you up with no problem.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 09:28 PM
The plum color could be there for numerous reasons. Sometimes the alloy of the steel can be the culprit with the hot bluing coming out purple, or another factor is the bluing solution was well used and needed to be changed. I've seen many "fine" guns that started out having a nice black finish, turn that purple color years later. Many factors involved.

Dustin
Posted By: keith Re: Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 09:37 PM
I agree with Kensal on the buffing issues, and I'd certainly factor in the cost of refinishing into the price. But I'm not certain of the bodgery part. I've never tried hot bluing, but I've read that steels with a high nickel content can turn purple after bluing. I have a Mauser model 66S with .30-06 and .243 barrels in as new condition that has never been reblued, and the receiver has turned purplish. The rest of the blued steel is a very deep blue black, and I assume it did not leave the Mauser factory with a purple receiver. The original owner who I bought it from told me it changed color while in storage, and thought it might have something to do with the Clenzoil he wiped it down with. I seriously doubt that Clenzoil had anything to do with it.
Posted By: LeFusil Re: Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 09:42 PM
You're correct...Clenzoil had nothing to do with it. I'm no metallurgy expert, but I have friends in the gun making business that believe the silicone content of the steel being blued has alot to do with the bluing turning a purple/plum color over time.

Dustin
Posted By: Kensal Rise Re: Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 11:21 PM
Keith:
The purple is mostly due to the fact that M-12s are made with nickel steel frames. If the "gunsmith/bluer" doesn't know this, and does not approach the finish properly (like Simmons will) he has no business bluing guns. Call the fellow what you will.
Posted By: Oldmodel70 Re: Hot blue question? - 04/19/12 11:50 PM
Max... Winchester is/was famous for their plum color. Your model 12 probably is factory standard. Get involved in collecting Model 94s and Model 12s like I do, and you will discover literally dozens of guns with the standard factory "plum" bluing.............. Grant.
P.S. If the bluing is in good condition, I wouldn't have it redone.....
Posted By: JimfromTrafalgar Re: Hot blue question? - 04/20/12 07:22 PM
For what it's worth. A fine rust blue will work, and will not change with age.
Posted By: keith Re: Hot blue question? - 04/20/12 10:14 PM
Kensal, I understand what you are saying. If I recall correctly, the salts bath is run at a higher temp in order to blue nickel steel parts without getting reds or purples. Don't quote me on that though. But it sounds as though some guns that were originally blue can turn purple over time. As with my Mauser M66S, I assume the Winchester guns that turn purple were not purple when they left the factory. If that's true, isn't it possible that a Simmons re-blue could also change color over time? I have never read an explanation for why this color change occurs or if it can be prevented.
Posted By: Dennis Potter Re: Hot blue question? - 04/20/12 11:20 PM
I have never seen a Winchester model 12 nickel steel gun that Simmons blued turn purple over time. There is a technique of salts/temperatures that results in a black that lasts. Not too many people know how to do that anymore. Different alloys used in different gun parts need different times and temperatures to come out black and stay black. A lot of guns and parts present bluing problems.
And as stated, a rust blue will not turn colors, at least as far as I have ever seen.
Posted By: keith Re: Hot blue question? - 04/21/12 12:14 AM
The immediate questions that come to mind are: How long has Simmons been re-bluing Winchesters? And how long did it take for factory bluing on Winchesters to take on a purple hue? If this process takes several decades, it may come to pass that even Mr. Simmons jobs will turn as well.

I just read a tip from Brownell's Gunsmith Kinks II that recommended a process of putting nickel steel parts in the bath at 250 degrees, running the temp up to 310-315 for 15-20 minutes, then dropping the temp to 285-290 for another 15-20 minutes. I have also seen other variations on the process in other gunsmithing books. But none has addressed the issue of whether the color will stand the test of time. For most of us, 30 years will be more than enough. My Mauser 66S receiver was slightly purple when I got it around 1990. It was around 25 years old at that time. I think it is a bit worse now, but the change would be so gradual as to be barely noticeable.

I think rust blue colors can and do change. Most Damascus Lefevers that started out as black and white are now more of a purple/brown patina as the oxides have partially or completely converted to another form of rust. Plenty of other rust blued guns exhibit similar change in color ranging from near original blue to rusty brown, and everything in between. You could argue that the cause is neglect, or you could accept that further chemical reaction has occurred from exposure to humidity, perspiration, various oils, dirt, blood, etc. In that sense, I'd bet even well oiled closet queens would show some minute color change if you could compare the color by spectroscope over many decades, because some small amount of oxygen is going to get to the bluing through the oil over time. Very few of us store our guns in sealed vessels of dry nitrogen.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Hot blue question? - 04/22/12 03:27 PM
30 yrs would work for me.
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