A good friend of mine picked me up to go to Holts on Tuesday evening. I managed to hobble around the place but in truth shouldn’t have gone.

However, I was caught by a little 28 bore Manton and Co. Manton and Co was setup by Josephs son in India. However a company called Wallis, who also purchased the Samual Nock's business (Nigel Brown), purchased Manton and Co and I am assuming that the gun would have been made in London or more likely Birmingham. Others more knowledgable will put me straight I hope!

Sadly, because of this, I can't date it. Unless anyone can tell me otherwise.

This is quite an emotional gun for me. I want to finish it for Will because it's natural progression from his .410. Which he shoots so well. I'm so proud. It's off to my mate Ed Monday for him to work his magic. I've taken a punt on this..It could fail proof...but if it doens't it it'll be magic!

Tony

Nice wee gun there Tony and Will looks chuffed to bits with it too!

It'll be wonderful when you have worked your magic on it.

Tim

It looks nice and Will should have a great time with it, but what gauge is it?
Steve

Whoops! 28 Bore. I've amended my post..

Tony - Lovely little 28 - bore. Looks like it will be in good hands, God Bless,
Dave

Sweet. Handsome piece
Thanks for sharing
Mike

Tony: It appears your son is thrilled with his new 28 bore! Very pretty shotgun.

The young fella look's pretty proud dad ,fine job!!!

1. What are the ramifications in England of a gun "failing proof"?

2. Does that mean it can't be legally sold?

3. Does a seller have to refund the purchase price?

4. What if it was purchased at auction?

5. Can the owner legally shoot/hunt with an out-of-proof shotgun?

6. Would a hunt club or public shooting range prohibit its use?

JERRY

Cool gun, Tony, with TONS of potential. I look at it and see how it will look once you're done with it - beautiful! And yeah, your son is obviously pleased with his new gun. You're right, it'll be a natural progression from his .410 and he'll be able to hang with this gun for quite awhile - it's a REAL gauge, you know? Not so dodgy as a .410 (don't beat me Chuck H!)

and what are the actual physical characteristics of a gun which "fails proof" after the proof test?

Hi, great questions. Answers as I believe them...

1. What are the ramifications in England of a gun "failing proof"?
You can't sell or use it legally.

2. Does that mean it can't be legally sold?
Correct. It is illegal to seel such a gun. Gun Dealers can hold them though.

3. Does a seller have to refund the purchase price?
Almost certainly. But not sure on legal ramifications. Dig or Toby, someone else is sure to give you a proper answer.

4. What if it was purchased at auction?
It is illegal to sell a gun at auction out of proof.

5. Can the owner legally shoot/hunt with an out-of-proof shotgun?
If you own it yes. At your own risk. Guns fall out of proof through normal use.

6. Would a hunt club or public shooting range prohibit its use?
How would they know?

3. If anybody sells a gun out of proof in the UK, they commit an offence. The gun is clearly not 'fit for use' and would therefore fall foul of Trading Standards laws. any dealer would certainly be better off quietly refunding the money, a private individual may be harder to deal with but ultimately could be threatened with the law for having committed an offence by selling an out of prof gun.

However, if you submit a gun to proof and it fails, you wear the cost.

What a nice looking gun! Is there a reason I don't see or missed that it may not pass proof? I think it is a beautiful gun.

It's a black powder only atm. But the barrels are steel. The risk is that it has some pits so I've taken a real punt with it. All down to my barrel man Monday! Whos is a wizard!
T

Hey, Dig, do Birmingham proof house re-proof using Black Powder ifn you ask for it so it stays like that and doesn't risk full proof? I wonder..

Kirby Foote has listed for sale a 28 ga English hammer double with text to the effect that finding English hammer 28s is about as common as finding fresh horse-leavings under the back end of a wooden hobbyhorse.

Looks like you found a good one here, Tony - did that rarity angle have any weight in your decision to buy this gun?

AND looks to have a nice piece of wood, in proper straight-grip format. Heel and toe plates too Tony?

Birmingham and London proof will reproof for black powder .They will only reproof if the gun was originaly black powder .

Hammerguy, yes I think the wood under there is nice. It's got something you know. The barrels are clearly the risk. It's one I have to take...otherwise I might consider sleeving it.

Gunman thanks for the confirmation. I'm guessing there isn't a lot of difference pressure wise.

Tony, there is quite a "difference" between black and smokeless in the pressure arena if that is what you mean in the above post..?.......the proof house can give you hard numbers for the pressure spike, black vs smokeless 28 ga.......

Are the barrels thin? Is that what has you worried?

Thanks Doug. I think the pressures just happen at different points up the barrels..I'll take advice. The other problem is that I don't think you can buy 28 guage black powder shells over here you have to load em. Will check! Unless any UK guys know of a source.

HammerGuy, no just pits, but that could be enough. Tomorrow is acid test with Ed my barrel man...will report back good or bad news tomorrow for sure!

Tony, I knew we could get you into reloading one way or another.....

Cheers,

Tony, the pits will have to go for the gun to pass View.

Got it Dig. It's gonna be a close one

28guage blackpowder reloads? I reload them.

Really? Well that's the other options...see if Ed can clean em up and then if it remains in proof just shoot it! Hmm...cheers mate..

T

Ballistix. My advise is don't go black powder for your son. Let him shoot nitro. Don't worry about the proof if it fails I can sleeve it for you. Let me look at it before you put it into proof. If you want to sleeve it I have 28 bore tubes in stock from 26" to 32"
Regards

John, that's brilliant! I've just left Ed Caine and after a lot of discussion we are going to go for proof. There appears to be quite a lote of thickness chamber end where the pits are. We'll also go out to 2 3/4. I've spoken to Sam at the proof house and he's waiting to do it Wednesday! How is that for service. If it fails I'll definately take you up on the sleeving. Thank you.

Regards,
Tony

A gun can be submitted for reproof with some pitting . Provided the bores are clean and bored to a size . It is down to the viewer to make a judgment on whether to accept it for proof and then it will depend on the results of firing.

Yes, Ed said the same thing today gunman.
Cheers
T

Hello guys. Well as you know I've had the little gun taken out to 2 3/4 chambers, honend, smoothed and pits taken out after discussion with my brilliant man Ed Caine over at Price Street. I am very very pleased to announce that Sam from the Birmingham proof house called me today to say that the little guns barrels flew through proof. It was quite emotional and VERY exciting for me. Just so very pleased. I can't wait to get started on her tomorrow now!

Just wanted you guys to know we got her through.
Regards,
Tony

Terrific update Tony.

Great News!

Good to hear!

Got her! Amazing. No pits 26/27 tho in barrels and really thick in the breeh!! VERY happy...now a quick fire and to work!
T

Off to shoot her to make sure all is OK and then the strip down begins!
T

Let us know how it shot and what you shot through it Tony........thanks.....

Cheers,