I have tried to identify the proof markes on this water table using the "Standard Directory" as well as those listed in "The Modern Shotgun" as well as Greener. It appears to be a crown outline without anynotation above or below. Can any student of proof marks offer suggestions? Thanks in advance for help in this task.
Aloha.
Water Table #1
There has been discussions on these crowns before. They are not a proof mark as such, found on J P Sauer & Sohn guns. Seems as if Geno had some info on them, but don't recall what they actually were. I assume this is a Sauer as looked like the Sauer Man also stamped there.
I don't know what they mean but:
Ah yes, the infamous "Big Crowns". As 2-Piper mentions, these are not part of any national German proof regs, at least according to Engelhrart, Kennett, Wirnsberger or other reference I have seen but are fairly common on pre-WWII German guns, particularly Sauers.
Has anyone seen one of these big crowns on a gun _not_ from Sauer? I have a 1905-ish Sauer double with one big crown that is also marked "Prussia". There's always more to learn....
I have no reference to base this on, but suspect these may have been sort of a tax stamp in the various municipalities/states of Germany.
Thanks a lot!! I suspected they were german but could not find any definitive information. Best BBS on the net!!
You may already know this. 1891-1939 crown over S, supplementary mark designating shotgun barrels, crown over W, supplementary mark indicating barrels with choke. The two eagles (if that is what they are) provisional and definitive proof of shoulder arms. At the far right is a circle that should contain a number indicating the gauge. The proof load varied depending on chamber length.
I agree that the large crowns have to be a makers mark or perhaps as Jerry suggested a type of tax. Also, if the gun was made after WWI there was a limit on the arms production, so they may have something to do with that.
Pete
Pete; I have a J P Sauer & Son / VL&D "Knockabout" which has these two crowns. SN dates it to CA 1900 per the list published a few years back in DGJ.
Friends:
The proofs are obviously German, post 1892. As for the big crowns, any official mark using a "crown" as a tax stamp, etc., most likely went the way of the monarchy.
Notice how the crowns are decidedly different in their conformation. Perhaps one is the imperial crown and the other the Prussian state crown.
Just speculation.
Regards
GKT
The crown stamp on the right is an almost exact image of the Prussian Crown of Frederick the I, and of Frederick the Great.
The one on the left is most assuredly NOT the Imperial Crown of the German Kaisers, aka The Germans State Crown of 1871. It is, however, the spitting image for the 1806 Crown of Bavaria, first worn by Maxmilian I of Bavaria, after Napoleon made him king.
I am very certain that thats what these are.
Ok, why would this gun have the Prussian Crown and the Bavarian Crown on the water table? Maybe taxed in Prussia on manufacture, and then sold in Munich, tax paid there for sales or inventory?
Of course, then that raises the question of why would a VL & D gun, bound for market in the US, have both stamps, unless perhaps shipped through Bavaria and possibly taxed there in transit? Or perhaps these are customs marks?
Ok you knowlegeable folks... are these tax stamps?
Regards
GKT
Is there anyone out there who might have some answers on the crowns... perhaps from the Euro contingent, or Russia, perhaps?
Geno?
I hope to hear something - this has becomevery interesting, in my opinion.
Regards
GKT
Asked a German friend who in turn asked a collector friend. Herr Klemens says the big crown ia an old English proofmark and the other is a German proofmark used since 1945.
I am including the actual email for your reference. I had to change some letters because they showed as gibberish:
Hallo Biene,
nichts einfacher als dies:
GroSe Kronen: fruhe englische BeschuSzeichen (English proof from early time!)
Die weiteren Pragungen sind deutsche BeschuSzeichen bis 1945. (The other, Germany since 1945)
Adler = VorbeschuS 1. (Eagle = Proof)
Adler mit Krone U: EndbeschuS 2. (Eagle over crown = Final Proof 2)
Krone S: Schrotlauf (normal)
Krone W: Schrotlauf mit Wurgebohrung (I think this has something to do with the drilling barrel)
Da mussten evtl. noch Zeichen fur das BeschuSjahr vorhanden sein.
Beste GruSe
Klemens"
Ich bin der Kurier gerecht!
JC(AL)
"Herr Klemens says the big crown ia an old English proofmark and the other is a German proofmark used since 1945"
That doesn't really explain their presence on a Ca 1900 German gun built for sale in the USA (Krupp Bbls). I do not believe VL&D imported their Sauer's via England & it is 45 years too early for the other.
Incidently, though I read no German, if i am decifering right the Krone W (Crown over W??) means the bbl to which it is applied has a choke bore (this is found on both bbls of the Sauer/VL&D Double) & has nothing at all to do with whether it is a drilling.
In short I believe Herr Klemens missed this one.
Miller, I am the translator for the "drilling"part. Herr Klemens has nothing to do with
translating; I got something actually referring to choke from a German/Spanish dictionary I have, sorry.
I am asking why an English proofmark would get put on a Deutsch waffen.
Will inform.
JC(AL)
Could one of those crowns be a grade stamp? david
Friends:
I am pretty familiar both with German and English proofmarks.
The crowns are definitely not English.
Ich glaube, dass der Gnädiger Herr ein Fehler gemacht hat.
Crown over U is "Untersuchüngsstempel" , literally "examination stamp" or "inquiry stamp ", more comfortably rendered into English - final proof mark.
Crown over S , with "S" likely denoting "Schrot", or "shot", in English, it is the mark applied to smoothbore barrels.
Crown over W , "Würgebohrung" or choke- bored, is the mark applied top choked barrels.
Wirnsberger says "Crown over U" ceased with the proof law of 1939. Apparently, so did the other marks. The Federal Eagle began being used in 1952.
Next theory?
Regards
GKT
FWIW I have a J P Sauer & Sohn 16ga hammerless made in 1903 with the same crowns, one on each flat. This gun is a typical lower grade gun produced for local sales, sling swivels, cheekpiece on stock. I would guess it made it to the US in a duffelbag after WWII.
Jim A.
Some observations:
The word "bis" in German does not mean "since". It means "until" or "before". So what Herr Klemens said about the "weiteren Pra"gungen" is right. They are German proofmarks that were used before 1945.
But I can't agree with him about the big crown's being an English proofmark. I have no proof that that is wrong. I only have my pretty strong belief on the matter.
Another thing that I would like to state is that the Crown/W was not placed under every choked barrel. In the case of side by sides the Crown/W was sometimes stamped on the flat under each barrel, but sometimes it was only stamped on the flat under the more fully choked barrel.
The question still remains as to "IF" it was infact a proof mark. It is found in no list of marks I have access to, including Wirnsberger, Kennet, Englehardt, Greener's 1910 edition etc & seems to be on few if any guns of makers other than J P Sauer, which leads one to think it is some sort of proprietery stamp & not a proof mark. "IF" it is indeed a proof mark what proof does it indicate?? We have reference to what all the others are for.
At this point I agree with Miller. I went through every thing I had. I even looked at Prussian, Hungarian, Austrian, Czech etc and there was nothing that resembled that 1st crown. There seems to be lettering in the crown. I am guessing that if you figure that the rest falls into place.
On Belgian and Spanish guns, a makers trademark is often stamped. Some times these are simple, a couple of initials, some times they are very complex and ornate. These marks change over time.
Pete