http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=272048397

Eye candy!

Wow!

Similar pattern to some of the Ithaca 'many thousands grades' Walt has posted or published.

Joe,
My birthday is coming up in a couple of weeks!

Mr. Flues could really build a fine gun. Every detail done to such a high standard. The .078 min. wall thickness got my attention. Guess he started with a 10 gauge barrel blank and bored it to 12 gauge. Kept the walls thick to keep felt recoil down and make a single barrel gun feel like a double barrel gun. Bet the balance is perfect even with such thick barrel. Must feel like a fine double. The MOI would be interesting.

I think he is a bit high with the starting bid. After all it is number two, not number one and spare parts have to be a bit of a problem. If my O-check ever gets here I have to see if the price has dropped a little.

Doubt if you will see the price drop much. This dealer really gets the high end guns, and has a pretty solid customer base as well. He belongs to our area pheasant club and will often bring a special gun for a prospective customer to shoot in real field conditions- a real high end sales tool. I have handled many good (but not guns like he carries) doubles at Cabelas Gun Libraries and Jaqua's in Ohio- but for an avid hunter, there is no better test -IMO anyway- of how the gun you have in mind buying performs on real wings and feathers getting airborne in a 25 knot crosswind--RWTF

KY, I have serial no. 1 and think this gun, no. 2 , is a wonderful superior example. I am not sure of Joe Wood's heading about the gun. Was the gun was engraved by Flues ?---------Maybe Flues, but maybe Kornbrath. Who can tell?

Good catch on grammar, Daryl. Have made an appropriate change.
Thanks

Joe, I really don't know who engraved the gun, serial no. 2. I have read opinions that Flues did some engraving and Kornbrath also engraved Flues guns. Just opinions. But, serial no. 2 seems to be done by someone with quite a bit of talent. Kornbrath was Austrian and came over here somewhat before we think the Flues gun was made. My guess, given the date, is that Kornbrath did it. That's my "guess".

Congratulations on having number 1. Both guns are superior examples of his work I am sure. I think he is one of the more under rated or at least unknown gunsmiths of his generation. Do not know if it is by his choice while living or just how little remains of his work. His talent level was extremely high none the less. I have seen several of his guns that he was thought to have built, engraved and finished all on his own. They were all as near perfect as they could be in fit and finish. But I guess if total lifetime production is only a few hundred custom guns he is just going to remain mostly unknown and under appreciated.

I guess my reference to O-checks (Obama checks or gifts of government money) went over peoples heads. Spent most of the day doing taxes. What my wife and I paid in taxes makes me both sick and poor at the same time. Good thing I do not own number two or I might have to sell it.

I hope these great guns make their way to museums that will preserve and display them. Unfortunately, for most of us, the really great stuff doesn't get seen much.

My bet is the gun was engrave bu Joe Loy.

I agree with Walter.

I've shot Daryl's Flues at traps and it was quite the nice handling gun. If I remember correctly, I did pretty good with it. Gun #2 looks fantastic.
Many many years ago when I first started looking at doubles I remember seeing at the Rochester, NY gun show a fellow who had 6 or 7 Emil Flues guns. I don't recall who that was. Maybe Walt knows. They were for sale, but I didn't know anything about them or Emil Flues. All I remember was that they were really nice looking guns.
Chris

I am inclined to go with Loy as the engraver as well. There is nothing about it that indicates Kornbrath to me. Further I am unaware that Flues was an engraver.

RB

Roger, How would you characterize Loy's scroll work vis. Kornbrath?

I would say, voluptuous and somewhat mechanical, vs. lighter and more graceful?

Care to comment?

Roger, I am not positive about Flues being an engraver, even for himself. Some years ago there was a fellow on this site that had studied Flues quite a bit. He had lots of examples and history. As I remember his statement went something like, "Flues engraved some of his guns, but the better ones were engraved by Kornbrath" I am personally not positive on this point, either way. We are always falling into the trap that if one repeats something enough, it becomes more believable each time.

Daryl,
I recall that fella. 'Seemed pretty knowledgeable about Flues and held him in very high regard. He had tracked his life and gun work and even had some contact with relatives as I recall. The guy was a wealth of knowledge about Flues and his patents. Shame he got sideways with a few here and either got booted or didn't care to come back.

Here is a link to a Flues O/U with Kornbrath engraving.

http://www.antiquesandguns.com/flues.html

This is "typical" Kornbrath style, and quite different from the SBT. I think the Loy attribution for the SBT engraving is right on!

Does anyone know how long Loy engraved ?

Dear Lord I could only hope it does not go to a museum. No one would ever shoot it again. It was meant to be shot and enjoyed in my opinion. Bill

Daryl, Without checking my records, I think Loy retired in the early 1950s. I have his retirement notice from the local paper on file someplace.

Without getting into a long discorse about the differences, Loy's style and execution shows English influence and, of course Kornbrath's work is clearly Germanic, particularly the use of motifs common to Austrian engravers.

IMO, its Loy's scroll work that helps identifies his work. I think Flues did some engraving. I briefly had the chance to purchase his last gun, a .410 double that he was working on just prior to his death. His grand nephew, with whom Emil was living said it was engraved by him (Emil). It was in some respects a bit crude but all done by Flues who was quite elderly at the time. The family decided to keep it. I have extensive photos of it and I think I put one in my Ithaca book.

Wait a minute, I don't have my hip waders on

Flues and Kornbrath engraving is not even close...Kornbrath was a classicly trained engraver (I have his original engraving school papers from Austria given to me by his son).

Joseph Loy had a secret signature...once you learn it, you can't miss his work except on the early guns be4fore he devoloped his secret signature

I'm not here to spout information, only to keep the record straight. Of course Flues was an engraver, have you seen the the most famous Marlin schutzen of all time? Have you seen the Ballard/Flues in Frank DeHas book on single shot rifles?
Flues breifly engraved for Baker Gun which is how he became friends with Kornbrath (not verified). He taught at least three apprentices to engrave, Sam Koch, Salvatore Licata(sp?), and Paul Koch. He engraved his patent model for single trigger patent 980147 granted him in 1910. It was his personal gun he kept until about WW II when he relinquished it to one of his apprentices, Sam Koch. This particular gun is not yet posted, but many Flues marked guns can be seen below.

https://sites.google.com/a/iroquoisarmscollectors.org/iroquoisarmscollectors/home/emil-flues-buffalo

Please note that Flues was also a believer in talismans.

Of course Flues was an engraver,and if you say it enough times it even sounds believable.

How many times would I have to repeat
"I remember seeing at the Rochester, NY gun show a fellow who had 6 or 7 Emil Flues guns. I don't recall who that was. Maybe Walt knows." (by Chris Schotz)
to make this sound beleivable? Yet that full blown fabrication stands. These guys know full well Loy's secret signiture and as soon as they get a closet full, they'll tell the rest of you.

Elsewhere on the Iroquois website you can find a pic of Frank Hollenbeck

To the serious students of engraving: If you really want to know how Flues engraving skills progressed after the Depression, the place to look is on Parkers. Paul Brobiel, one of Emil's closest friends, told me that when his father died (Flues employer from c1930-1948) he (Paul)sold 59 fake Parkers to a man who re-sold them as "Pachmyer upgrades" (1960's) (and one real Parker)

It's so nice of you who have this knowledge of fine American guns and their history to share with the rest of us. Thank you all. Paul

Well, I really like the single barrel trap by Flues,it's a tour de force, but I question the "most famous Marlin schuetzen" of all time remark. Too bad John Dutcher isn't reading this to jump in.

RDH45,
Sorry I wasn't more specific between Marlin and (Marlin) Ballards. In fact that Flues Marlin schutzen is the only Marlin schutzen I've ever seen. I was merely trying to bolster how obvious it is that Flues was an accomplished engraver even before he left Michigan c1906.

To the other readers,
I have asserted that some of the top dogs have been purposely misleading the the readers of this forum. I've waited until the timing was right so nothing would be ambigous. Still, I would have never posted except for Schotz's full blown fabrication that needed to be addressed before others started to believe it. He even called on Snyder to back him up in order to lend credibility saying "maybe Walt remembers"...like Walt maybe forgot seeing 6 or 7 Flues made guns in the same pile while smack in the middle of assembing a book about Ithaca with precious little information about their most important model. The more I think about this fabrication, the more it smells.

Prove me wrong Chris. Shame me in front of the other 500 readers who have read this post over the last week. Get one other ESACA member, like Walt, to concur that he too saw that pile of 6 or 7 and and I'll break out the catsup and starting eating crow with photos posted.

Again, I think that these guys know full well Loy's secret signature yet they're keeping it under wraps until they hog all the Loy engraved guns, just like they did with all the Kornbrath engraved Bakers. Shotz being the one of the main architects of that deceptive tactic.
Their silence tells me that I am correct. When the word gets around about Loy, watch how they all agree that it was common knowledge and they knew all along.
All of that is deception is acceptable to me. After all, knowledge is king especially when investment opportunities are floating by, but a person really crosses the line of ethics when they put up not only misinformation, they generate false gates. False gate is a locksmithing term which describes a mechanism designed to mislead an amature lock picker.
As a Flues researcher, had I not known who Chris Schotz is, and myself being a 30+ year member of Empire State Arms Collectors Association (Rochester Show), I might have takin the time to appeal to ESACA directors and try convince them of the historical significance of my search in order to view a list of display table holders across the 70's and 80's in search of that mystical Flues guru who had 6 or 7 Flues made guns. After all, I'm a 30 year member in good standing. I could have spent weeks trying to run down that false gate to no avail.

This is an exact repeat of the Baker tactics that resulted in the person who currently owns the Baker records saying he would rather let his wife throw them out after he dies before he would let someone hornswoggle him. And I understand.

Now you guys can tar and feather me yet again, for over stepping my boundaries about Joe Loy, but I will not stand by without at least trying to keep the history of Flues from being mucked up with fabrications and false gates for future unsuspecting researchers. Please note... that if this person were a real researcher, not driven by greed, he would automatically understand how potentially damaging his statements can be to other researchers.

Come on Chris, your one posted photo away from teaching all these guys the most important piece of investment information about Ithaca SxS's they are ever likely to learn. Surely a lifelong student of NY SxS's didn't chime in this conversation without advanced knowledge on this subject. Please redeem yourself by showing everyone that you didn't enter this thread just to post misinformation.

Anyone want to actually SHARE the secret Loy signature with me and the rest of the 'ribbon clerks' who follow this forum? Personal vendettas are tiresome...Geo

Geo,
I want desparately to share it with you ...but I can't because you twisted it out of context while asking at the same time...this is no personal vendetta...this is about truth, too bad you find it so "tiresome"

Truth isn't something for the few...truth is for everyone, even "ribbon clerks" like me.


Look...I taught you guys more about Emil Flues in one link than all the articles and books ever written about Ithaca. But thank you for minimalizing it to "tiresome".

Think about it...if I just laid it all out for everyone to see, once learned, I would be burned at the stake yet again for perhaps something as small as a misspelled word (Larry Brown). You were there...

The BBS "bum scoop mill" is making up major fabrications to designed to purposely mislead other researchers. The fact that you don't find THAT tiresome, speaks volumes about your respect for truth and transparency.

Think I'm bluffing? Get someone truthful (like Drew) to email me, and Ill send some photos to him for examination, but I want the great pontificators to show their cards before I post photos here.

Awwwwe Robert, it is not your knowledge and research I find tiresome. It is the way you choose to become offended by things and responding with personal attacks on the other members here.
You did post some great information on Emil Flues a few years ago, but then you decided we were not worthy of it, so you deleted it all.

I never have understood your vendetta with Chris Schotz; that's what's tiresome. As for the dust-up with Larry when he called you out on editing out part of a page you posted to shore up your 'language dispute' you deserved it.

I have no personal problem with you at all and I'd welcome you back to posting here regularly as well as sharing your research and getting feedback fom the experts here (not me) before you publish something good; it would be of benefit to you as well as the rest of us....Geo

Geo
You could twist a I beam bridge girder into a pretzel with your words.
All I'm doing is calling for them to show their cards.


"As for the dust-up with Larry when he called you out on editing out part of a page you posted to shore up your 'language dispute' you deserved it."

This is a complete LIE...Larry burned me for misspelling Labeille as Labielle...it had nothing to do with editing...but nice try

Mr. Chambers,
I didn’t realize I was supposed to respond to your post and that I only had a week to do it in. Thanks for your generosity in allotting me that much time.
As for the Flues guns I saw, that was in 1982 or 1983. Do I remember a lot about them – no. I don’t remember how many could have been single barrel guns, side by sides, over/under, or whatever. I don’t have any photos of them, nor do I remember the engraving, wood or checkering. I do remember that I was quite impressed with them, it was the first time I had ever heard of Flues. Beautiful guns that inspired me to learn more about early American shotguns. Since this was at the beginning of my interest, I didn’t even write the owners name down. I guess I’m of no help here now am I?
So whether you believe me or not, I really don’t care. I’m tired of people who can only criticize, insult or are just negative all the time. My priorities in life have changed quite a bit as I get older. A good family friend just passed into new life this morning, cancer claimed her at 56. I’m more into the joy that life brings, definitely not your take on life. Your personal attacks, snide comments and just poor attitude have no place here.

George
I'm done...you've fixed it

Plain and simple. all I wanted is for them to show their cards...you can twist into something else if you wish but you will cost every reader here to miss out on vital Ithaca collecting information...thank you George Newburn, you have just burned everyone out of the information I was trying to get these guys to admit...now you've cost everybody this investment tid-bit..I'm out

Yuuuk!

jack

My most abject apologies to the rest of the forum, and gun afficianados everywhere. Not sure what I said that set him off this time, but Robert comes around for a bit every few years, gets mad at someone (I guess its me this time) and takes all his knowledge and goes away. Clearly there is no "secret Loy signature"!...Geo

Chris,
Stop it...it's woodpecker eggs and you know it.
From 79 - 84 Kevin Kegler and I were in college and doing post publication research work for Bruce Jennings (author Father of high velocity). Back then I walked every Rochester show, both days and uasually Friday night as I still do...but back then I carried a sign that read WANTED NEWTON FLUES BURGESS (the three gunsmiths once located in the little pocket where I live) And I can tell with certainty that the ONLY Emil Flues handmade guns to blow through the dome arena (other than the Flues personal 1910 gun and that sighting was later reported in the DGJ) was the so-called gun with the Kornbrath curse. This SxS sidelock was owned by ESACA member Fred Kubissa. Kubissa bought it from Kevin Kegler's father Ray Kegler. Ray was simply selling for someone else. I never knew Fred but the other gunnies said he had become desparate and was found floating in the Genesee River. It was the nearest I had ever come to seeing a Flues "two thousand dollar" grade gun. I never did see that gun or any other two thousand dollar grade Flues guns. Ever.
Now how would I know all that if I hadn't been hard wired to to the pulse of the ESACA exhibitors and members. Handmade Flues guns are so few that it's highly unlikely that Flues himself ever saw 6 or 7 at the same time. Had you said that you saw 6 or 7 sidelocks (two thousand dollar) than I may have blown coffee out of my nose because ALL the two thousand dollar grade guns have vanished. All of them, including the only three thousand dollar that I know of...All Kornbrath engraved sidelocks and most if not all stolen. Three of them from his brother(s) on the west coast.
Dude...handmade Flues guns are like counting cards...Hell you guys are counting Bakers down to the Kornbrath Deluxes...

It's woodpecker eggs and you know it. This stuff has to stop! Tell these guys why you can't go to most NY State gun shows and gunstores anymore. Tell them how you took to the telephone and trashed the book collaboration between Larry Schuknecht and I after Dave Weber said stop. You just couldn't stop could you.

Just to let you know...we were doing that book at Dan Cote's request...I was doing all the patent research and part of the bio research and Larry was doing part of the bio research and writing the biographies. I was 400 hrs and 12 thousand into it when you trashed the deal by misleading Larry. Screw the hours, you owe me 12 thousand dollars. What's even harder to take is Larry published the so-far data and published my research along with his, and what could I say, you screwed him too. Good thing I witheld a large portion.
You cost me 12K...You cost Larry...you cost Dan Cote...you cost the readers of this forum untold recognition investmet opportunities when you put the kibosh on the DGJ's book project... and in all probability you're mst likely the the "50 pounder in a 25 pound bag" who forever pissed off the guy who hold the Baker records...you practically blew yourself in retrospect by telling everyone they no longer exist...you knew...because you were the guy who turned that deal into mush...you totally screwed a whole generation of Baker collectors...you're gonna go down as the biggest train wreck and bum scoop mill in the history of collecting SxS shotguns...I'm afraid to look at Lefever Colletors material for fear I'll find another train wreck with your name on it too.

Stop with the lies and false witness...go over your old posts and delete the pontification crap before the tidal wave of OCR material arrives.

The things you have done are examples of egregious behavior and something that needs to be addressed by the Federation members.

Good Lord!!

At least it ain't personal.

The inevitable result of adding money to any situation.

OK...here we go...I can't tell you guys what his touchmark is ...because I've been I've been goose piled at this website way too many times. But Dave Weber has been kind enough to allow me to speak my piece, painful as it is to hear...

Again I can't tell what his touchmark is because Rabbit would probably get out the pitchforks and have me burned alive....so I'm just going ask the good readers of this board to look at this material starting with this link first.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=263984

George and Rabbit please avert your eyes...

The rest of these photos wouldn't be possible if it were not for a DGBBS member taking time to teach me how to easily,quickly, properly post photos...many thanks to Builder if he's still reading

All I got to add is that a lot of guys who think they can engrave a bird on a gun, really can't. Or couldn't. Winston Churchill's work, this ain't.
Zutz was absolutely, positively, correct in his assessment of typical early American gamescene engraving.
You boys can fight over it. Enjoy.

Best,
Ted

I'm afraid I agree with Ted. There's no reason to trash this type of engraving; it's American primitive. Sort of like a Grandma Moses on your shotgun. The engraving is cartoon-like and very awkward-looking. I have several Gorosabel (Spanish) shotguns with engraving of similar characteristic.

Now, there's noting wrong with such a style but to my eye it is awkward and not true to nature. For example, look at the hind legs of the dog on the first image posted a few posts above. Those are pretty anthropomorphic legs!

Personally I don't think cartoon characters have a place on a gun unless one wants a rendition of Popeye or The Shadow.

But nonetheless they represent the style of an era and are certainly valid expressions.

I think this engraving is pretty good:



But if I spotted Mr. Chambers hint It is is not by Joe Loy.

Pretty good trigger guard bird here:






But then again maybe I do see it in a different spot than the guns Mr. Chambers posted.

This is a 16 gauge grade 4.

If I have the Loy cartouche spotted then this is by Loy:

What I like about the scratching on my 1917 Flues double: at the exit of some of those little channels in the scrolls there's a little nugget of steel that was left when the "chip" broke off. Could have been removed but wasn't. You feel it was left there by a chisel and . . . just left there. Light reflects from it; a little diamond of light. Maybe you arty boys never heard of "bravura" styles; probably never looked at N. C. Wyeth illustrations not done on a gun but definitely done under one. Something to be said for git er did and I've said it. What I like about Robt.: damn little but it's Dave's board and Dave's rules and Dave's exemptions and Dave's permissions and zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

jack

May be, but I'm not paying money for it...

Best,
Ted

What a strange post. Who is this Chambers person.He seems to have problems with anger managament.
Life is too short to get steamed up and get a heart attack about something inconsequential as mediocre engraving, well not mediocre, that is how they scratched in 1885, just look at it as folk art. Turnip partridges looked fine to them, who are we to complain?

If that were guns from 1885, I guess they never saw the Spangler brothers or Glahn's work.
Too many flying turnips and stick figure dogs, they should have stuck with the scroll engraving, pretty hard to mess that up.

AmarilloMike,
You're correct...too bad these other guys wouldn't dare tell you before...perhaps I was mistaken as to the reasons why...maybe it's not greed that keeps the obvious from being talked about...maybe the readers at this forum simply don't want to be trashed by rabbit's smart mouth. Does he ever have anything constructive to say or is it all cyber bullying?
Many consider Joe Loy to be one of America's best engravers, I know that I do. Please note that rabbit and sheffelbean have reduced his work to "scratching", which is understandable since they are clearly far better engravers than Loy.

Below is an example of Flues engraving skills on his 1910 personal gun...maybe I'll be be better able to photograph it better in the daylight. I'm sure rabbit and ted, being the the great American master craftsmen that they are, will quickly poo-poo Flues work as well.



use Ctrl + to zoom Flues signature

To ted and rabbit, two of the great luminaries of this BBS system, Loy and Flues were just a couple of flying turnips who scratched guns... so before these guys begin to poo-poo Flues' engraving skills, I would like to mention that he also;

1) carved the action by hand without machinery/electricity
2) designed and hand made all the internals
3) knit the bbls, ribs, and lumps together
4) joined the action to the bbls
5) stocked and checkered
6) blued and finished it

If that isn't enough...he designed, PATENTED, handmade and installed a single selective trigger mechanism which has an additional adjustable length of pull feature.

also

Correction...I've not seen the Tom Mix' gun or Kornbrath's personal gun which both reside at the Cody museum, so I don't know if they are one thousand dollar grade or two thousand dollar grade (sidelocks)...I should have checked before I said "all" the two thousand dollar grades are still missing.

So much intrigue......

Where's Columbo when you need him. Heck maybe Jim Rockford could investigate.....

I don't make my living as an engraver. I don't have to. There are people who are better at it. That doesn't mean I can't comment on it. I pointed out that neither Loy nor Flues could hold a candle to Winston Churchill. They don't, and they can't.

Argue THAT point instead, Robert. Good luck with it.


Best,
Ted

I'm pretty sure this is Loy also.........







21

Thank you Robert!

AmarilloMike,
Thanks for not saying anything...let the readers interpret for themselves. I posted that info with trepidation because of the lack of cross reference (often associated with secret). Either way, truth is more important than being correct. So I would like to add some info that may or may not appear contradictory.
Loy's life had an unusual twist in that he had an unintended double identity (no pun intended). Back then, just as now, jack everyone assumed his legal name was Joseph. His name was Joe. This near meaningless bit of information has further obscured his life to many researchers.
None of the guns in the photos I posted belong to me except the Flues 1910 gun, but some were Ithaca Flues models which were not manufactured until Loy was squarely working for Remington for over a decade. Then how can this be?
I was shown the Loy touchmark by a gun engraver who explained that Loy continued as a sub contractor for Ithaca for decades. His conveyance stood to reason because only an outside contractor could alter what had become a "factory pattern" done by in-house salaried employees. Then, when you begin to look around at the examples, they vary far and wide, but all are variations of a J & L cypher. Not only had he figured out how to bury his mark, he altered and flared it so we wouldn't miss it.

The records I've seen indicate that he also moonlighted engraving sports medals as lat as 1916 even though he lived until 1952.

Robert, if I understand your position correctly, you have been angered by collectors who have specific information that aids the accurate identification of guns engraved by Loy who have refused to make that information public in order to be able to have a "leg up" in acquiring guns at less than the market might otherwise dictate (because of a general lack of understanding about who engraved what). They have also angered you by making it more difficult than it might otherwise of been for you to conduct your research and get the fruits of your labour out in the public domain.

If I am correct in understanding that, why do you seem to be perpetuating the secrecy? If there is a Loy touchmark, why not just get it out in the open?

Canvasback,
No you don't understand my position. Just because you just found out doesn't mean everyone else did. I've known for years and I was told by someone else. If I was told, Schotz was told first, and the way he plays up to some of these guys, surely they know too.

I was here when the Kornbrath hogs quietly soaked up all his work, which would have been cool if it hadn't been done under a cloud of misinformation, deceipt, and flat out burglary. Your talking to the guy who reported Joe Reece (ESACA member)to the district attorney's office.
I was right here at this forum whe someone (fishingkid or something) turned up with the one of rarest L C Smiths "Mark's Special" only about 3 or 4 known. Do you think any of these LC experts would tell this kid? No, some reader who specializes in Liege shotguns had to get bashed for telling him (that's me)

Dude...Does it look like I want to perpetuate secrecy? I'm asking you again, does it look like to you like I'm perpetuating secrecy, (which is your accusation).Just what are you getting at here?

All I'm trying to do is let out some overdue recognition for Loy for all the regular folk who suffered through my barking at Chris Schotz. And I want to let out the info without getting goose piled. If I'm ambiguous then I can choose not to defend my post. It's that simple, not secret.

Remember, I came to this thread to try and keep the record straight about Emil Flues...in a conversation about Flues Kornbrath and Loy. I told near all I knew about these three men, yet you make no recognition of that. These readers now have the knowledge to swim with the sharks, but it wasn't my intended conveyance. I'm not an Ithaca or engraving expert, but you don't have to ba an engraving expert to see the difference between Loy's, Kornbrath's, and Flues' engraving. Why then would these experts on American shotguns be discussing this seeming nonsense? Because at least some of them are testing to see who understands what...like any good shark, they're testing the waters.

Again I came here as stated in an earlier post, to try to keep the record of Flues straight...nothing more...unfortunately, I had to cough up what I knew about Loy as a consequence, but it was never my intention, or I would have said years ago.

Robert, first let me say my experience with you personally through this and more particularly other sites has been very favorable. I want to be clear, I am not accusing you of anything. I have been reading this thread with interest, as a relatively new enthusiast. I don't collect Ithaca's and have no interest in starting. And I have no personal relationship or knowledge of any of the other members here you have referenced in your posts.

I am trying to understand your position more clearly. That's all. I can't do it now, but perhaps I should re-read the entire thread.

I would add that I am the kind of person who says what I think or know and lets the chips fall where they may. If I meant to accuse you, I would. If I am asking a question, it's not to be leading but because I don't know the answer and I am curious. It strikes me that ths being a public forum of double gun enthusiasts, the purpose of which is to share knowledge, that's what we should be doing. However I am not so altruistic to imagine there aren't some who might not be as forthcoming as they might for the possibility of financial gain.

My apologies canvasback...I'm shell shocked whenever I post here...In years past I had to call the police to stop the 2am phone calls screaming racial slurs for asking an Emil Flues question...you probably won't believe me, but years ago I was nearly tarred and feathered for telling some kid that LLH on his Ithaca Flues model meant the tubes were imported from a Belgian manufacturer L Lochet Hebran. Someone else with that mark said "you tryin to say my American made Ithaca has furrin barrels?" I didn't understand that he was asking me like those was fightin words. So I continued to say oh yeah most all US doubles had European tubes...I was probably being a smart mouth by saying stuff like "what did you think Krupp on your barrels meant? Well all hell broke loose... and I got roasted...

Now, of course, it's common knowledge but I foolishly thought so back then. There were several other goose piles back then but then the chemistry began changing. I posted about the difference between the Remington boxlocks and the improved Remington boxlocks. The info was initially met with skepticism and eventually played out to everyones benifit. We all understand the model 1894 a little better now. But out of nowhere I got goose piled for something unknown. Eventually I needled out of the expert, what had negated my entire post(s) was a misspelled word.

Most of these guys learned more about Flues and Loy in 2 posts than all books and magazines published. That's why I couldn't understand your perspective. Basing my responses in past experience, this is how I must do things in order to keep from being goose piled. You saw how some of these guys responded... to them, Loy and Flues, both considered American masters, were just a couple of flying turnips. Persons who stuff threads with "comments" while knowing nothing of the subject being discussed are essentially jamming the thread. This is a very effective strategy adopted by "trolls" worldwide. What I can't understand is why the bum scoop mills never get jammed with "comments".

I haven't told you the half of it...please forgive me, I'm so beyond shell shocked...and I apologize

Robert, it seem that you do take small things to heart easily. Really, let it go.

It seems you know your Ithaca's very well, and if you enjoy the engravings on them, that is again your choice, but I have seen engravings on some Ithaca's and other guns be it American or European, that there are some "flying turnips" on them. If one cannot see this, then they haven't compared them to others with great game/dog engraving scenes. It would have been better if they left them off and used a type of rose and scroll.

So don't be so sensative, be a teacher to those that are willing to learn, and ignore the bad ones, they are in every bunch.

What the heck is goose piling? Must be a Yankee term.

SRH

I received a phone call from the Buffalo Bill Historical Center's curator stating the the Kornbrath's personal Flues made gun is a boxlock. Tom Mix's gun no longer resides at the museum.
Also worth noting...shortly after Ithaca Gun Co began producing the Flues model, IGC had sue to Fox Gun Co, still in Phiolidelphia, for patent infringement in order to stop manufacturing of guns based on the Emil Flues 1895 patent 516546.

If anyone owns a pre 1908 Philidelphia Fox with unusual mechanicals, perhaps you have a Fox Flues model. There was a small write up on this law suit in the Syracuse Post Standard on Saturday August 15th 1908, in which Flues himself testified. The article indicated that the Fox Flues gun had already been being produced.

Numerous additional photos have been updated to the Flues and Newton pages at the Iroquois website but I could not get a legible copy of that 1908 article to post. If anyone has a legible copy of the article, or photos of a Fox Flues model, please consider allowing Iroquois to post the info in their database for everyone to see.

Well, Robert, I'm still waiting for the post in which you declare either Flues or Loy to be the artistic equal of Winston Churchill.

I've got a feeling I'll be waiting a while.

I made an opinion comment that the engraving of these two men was not up to Churchill's level of work. After which, you saw fit to assume I was a gunmaker of some sort, and my opinion of any engraving should be based upon what type of craftsman I am. What type or level of craftsman I am has nothing to do with my opinion of the engraving Flues or Loy produced. Ditto Rabbit, for what it's worth.

You have made it clear of what you think of Chris Shotz, let me be the first to suggest that I vehemently disagree with you. He has been nothing but civil to me, here, and in the few times I have spoken with him about a gun that falls outside my area of interest. I've never bought or sold anything to him, but, I would do either, based on what I've seen.

Your posts here invariably have a way of snowballing out of control. You post a bunch of information irrelevant to the discussion, like how Flues built the gun, knitted the barrels together, hogged the action out with hand tools, etc., but, never get back to the main idea I posted, which is a lot of the engraving, animals in particular, aren't lifelike, and just plain suck when compared to another engravers
work.

So, let's hear it, Robert. Let me hear you say you hold the engraving work of Flues or Loy in higher regard than Winston Churchill's.

That was my only point prior to you "goose piling" on me with a bunch of other nonsense, Robert.

Best,
Ted

Brer Rabbit not gettin stuck in this tar baby but to Ted: The aminals are admittedly a bit outliny on some "later" Flues guns (1918 onward). Strange to say, I was looking at a "later style" Fox XE (the back end of it anyway) and on the bottom of the action is the worst cartoon dog/badger/bear? you could ever hope for but it's always the Parkers and Smiths and Ithacas than take the heat for flying turnips and dog cartoons. I don't punch my initials into any of em because they're what was available to be put on a gun for a price by US. Extremes can be tedious. I couldn't pay for a bulino hologram on a gun action and lucky for me don't want one. And some of stiffest, deadest, taxidermy engraving I've ever seen was on the receivers of model 12s. Somehow that stuff has street value. If there's a cutter I admire, it would be Ken Hurst but I'm not in the commissioning class so's I got to make do. As for the paranoiac, nothing I'm wanting and nothing I'm taking.

jack

Look at the pheasants and the doves here, Robert:

http://wchurchill.com/engraving.html

Compare it to Loy's work. Also to Flues. Expalin (there is the spelling error, so, you have that outlet to debase anything I posted, if you want) to me how you feel either of the old masters work is superior, and upon what you base that opinion. You can feel free to post an opinion of the scroll work of Flues or Loy being superior to Churchill's, too, if 'ya got the seeds to do that on a public forum.

Still waiting, Robert.


Best,
Ted

Ted,
Don't get your panties in a bunch...I was tryin to heed the advice of posters, that I have been given repeatedly...

most recently by JDW
"So don't be so sensative, be a teacher to those that are willing to learn, and ignore the bad ones, they are in every bunch." (Ted are you reading? That's YOU ...I was trying to ignore you!)

Has anyone here ever learned one bit of information from Ted? I just shared more information in this one thread than I have read anywhere else on these subjects. After all, it's what the readers are truly here for...the bulk of the readers are here to learn whatever they can that will help them to be wiser investors if and when that time comes. I speculate that of the 3000 reads since posting Loy's touchmark, at least a few hundred came away with something that may help one day at a gun show...I now just offered up evidence of a most unusual Fox sibling....I could go on listing but it would sound like I'm again blowing my own horn...

Instead, perhaps you could list a few things the regular folk have learned from your 3,388 postings...just a few please...

OK...so maybe you have no academic achievements to back up your 10ga mouth...How about mechanical acheivements? Let's see some of your smithing skills...I know you said your engraving skills are lacking...leaving it to the readers imagination that you're at least somewhere between Joe Loy's level and Winston Churchill's level. ...or maybe ANY of your masterful skills. Surely you have something and you're not just a bag of hot air. Have you even put a muzzleloading Dixie kit together?

So maybe you're not simply a troll...let's see you're cards...You show photos of your acheivements and I'll show mine...the acheivements don't have to be world class or even well executed, just show something so everyone knows you're not wind bag like Chris.

Here in western New York and western Pennsylvania, the gunnies have Schotzisms (nobody calls them schotzisms, I just didn't have a better word to describe them) ...for example when someone is trying to sell a gun missing vital parts they say (jokingly) "any competent gunsmith can make that part quickly"...another Schotzism..."I only buy high grade Bakers" which loosely translates into I only buy Kornbrath engraved guns for under $500...or how 'bout this one..."it's a factory prototype" ...We learned these tactics from Chris, so we associate these tactics with Chris...so please let Schotz off the hook by not defending the indefensable while standing on the unassailable postion of defending Churchill at the same time...but I do hope you get you're dream date with Winston as a result of staunchly defending him. (even if it is in a conversation that has NOTHING to do with him....you go girl!)

OK crockodile mouth...show your stuff..let's see your academic or mechanical merits in this field of endeavour...prove to everyone who suffers through your troll postings that in fact, you have numerous redeeming facets to your personality...

Oh yeah...I almost forgot to say, thank you for keeping this thread fresh at the top

Sorry JDW,
I tried to ignore Ted but he was having none of it...he even did his best to call me out saying "Still waiting, Robert" and if I've got the "the seeds to do that on a public forum".

The last time Ted decided to defend someone it went viral...He was trying to defend Brittany Spears, and rightfully so, but I thought I might save Churchill from a similar rant he made about Brittany...see.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Holy Cats! Ted, do you have to be so emotional?

Now that was funny, Robert!...Geo

Thanks Geo,
But I would truly like to ask a question to you and the other academics who read, no, reply to these posts. Does everyone understand the tremendous price we all pay for allowing that type of posting to dominate conversation? Less than 2/3rds of the members ever post...why? Because many don't want to get jammed by people like Ted3000. They don't want the sideways, bold faced racial slurs hurled at them by rabbit "tar baby" (news flash rabbit...I'm not black...where were you when Chris sent out the memo c2001) It's a wonder this system hasn't been sued because of openly racist jammers like rabbit. It was a mistake for me to allow the readers to assume that I was black for the first two years. I can't even remember why I did..

I just cited evidence of a previously unknown factory made Fox, if any of those silent two thirds have a 1907 Philadelphia Fox with unusaul mechanicals, and now is the time to post, do you think they will?

If the one third who does post wanted only clarification and decided to ask ...is that why I'm having trouble finding parts for my 1908 Philly? They are not likely to post because the thread has been jammed by rabbit6000 and Ted3000...everybody loses...everybody

I ask again...Does everyone understand the tremendous price we all pay for allowing that type of posting to dominate conversation?

Not ted and rabbit, we already know what you think ! Now you can go back and edit your racial slur, rabbit, but I took a photo of your post, and I'll post it if you deny it (post #289738 - Today at 12:22 PM )

Don't make too much of my post Robert. It was funny, but rather at the expense of a member here who has indeed offered much to the forum. Ted is a good guy and so is Rabbit in my estimation.

Robert has much to offer here if we can "all just get along". I truly hope that can happen...Geo

The idea that rabbit is racist or intended a post as a racist slur is ludicrous. As a former importer of Darne's, Ted is the board's resident Darne expert. I could say more that's favorable to both of them, but it's just not necessary.

Jay

In West African folk stories, the tar baby was a character made of wax, gum, or tar, who proposed to trap, entangle and engulf a man. Poor old Joel Chandler Harris didn't know that Michelle Bachman would get stuck in a "tar baby" of her own devising, to wit, the revenge of the "code"-sensitive PC police on someone who appears to be slurring her races. He would have understood that there are situational tarbabies (for instance the subjective appreciation of gun art) and human tarbabies. Just as the subjective experience of art ain't black nor white, neither is the encounter with a human tar baby. I have no doubt that Robt. has more to contribute than malicious gossip; I don't hold out much hope that he will.

The more you struggle the further you get stuck in. Remember.

jack

Jay,

Geoffrey Gornet is the board's resident Darne expert. You would know that if Ted3000 would give his keyboard a rest...and that racial slur is exactly what rabbit intended even if it was double entendre...tar baby does have another meaning...touch it, and you'll get tar all over you...but that was certainly not his intention or he wouldn't have even posted.

Why are you covering for this insensitive racist? Why didn't you say it was ludicrous for rabbit to use this term in this day and age when impressionable young kids could read and easily misinterpret the postings at this system?

You tell me Jay...what's more ludicrous, calling out a racist, or covering for one?

No more goose piling, let rabbit and Ted3000 defend themselves

Master rabbit,
You can't simply edit your post and apologize for still using this racially charged term? Not even for the people who allow you to flap your racist mouth on their bullitin system

Sorry rabbit...I do not understand...please explain what a "Human tar baby" is? Explain it so even Jay can understand

Here we go again, Robert is back!

Robert, I'm well acquainted with rabbit outside of this board. I don't defend racism.

You seize on snippets of posts and create delusional, self-justifying fantasies.

Jay