its a g h ferriss patent date october 10 1871. nickel plated double hammer checkered wood all screws and hammers appear to be hand engraved.

Need pics

how do i post pics

Click on this link. http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148935#Post148935

i will e-mail pics to anyone who wants to see it, just e-mail me at reesebitz@gmail.com

Here's 2-piper's post:

"G H Farris was born in Willow Vale NY in 1820. By 1850 he had moved to Utica NY where he worked as a gunsmith for riflemaker Morgan James. Over the next few years the firm was variously listed as either James or James & Ferriss. By 1855/56 Ferriss had set up his own shop. He was still listed as from Utica when this patent was issued Oct 10, 1871 #119,834. As originally issued it covered both the bolting system & also a cartridge which contained the cone for a percussion cap. It was thus a sort of hybrid, being a breech loader but firing via cone & cap.
I suspect on this one the patent applies only to the bolting."

From: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1689&PHPSESSID=05d496

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Patent - http://www.google.com/patents?id=hU5rAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Ferriss held 3 patents.

118849 12/09/1871 Device for loading cartridges
119834 10/10/1871 Breech loading gun
149456 07/04/1874 Breech loading fire arm

American Small Arms patents by patent holder
http://damascus-barrels.com/uspatentnom.html

Pete

Most interesting as I did suspect a Belgian origin but not an Auguste Francotte tubeset. Right off, I can't remember to whom the crown over "MG Bte" belongs but we have seen it recently(Francotte retailed in Paris) and maybe Peter or Marc remembers. Is there any name like Charles Daly or the like atop the top rib?




Black powder proof only.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The rib says fine laminated steel S Sutherland

S Sutherland, well at least we know that Donald or Kiefer Sutherland never owned it. Perhaps their great great grandfather did. Seriously, it's a very unique in design and has nice lines, it's the kind of gun I always find myself buying just because it's unique. That said, in the doublegun world I consider myself a bottom feeder and I wouldn't pay more that $150, maybe $200 because of the unique factor. I may be way off because of something collectible about its uniqueness, but I doubt it.
Steve

Here's the thread I was searching for:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=206064&page=1


MG Bte 3332/3352




Double in question and if those inspectors touchmarks are crowned it was probably manufactured prior to 1877.


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

barrel says fine laminated steel s sutherland

Any Ideas, do you think francotte built this and ferriss imported it?

Like a hole in a sand pit, the deeper we dig the more questions are unearthed. Other than the patent, I'm curious if George H. Farriss had anything to do with it. It would seen the sporting arm was made at the Auguste Francotte concern. I also wonder if the firearms merchant Ben Kittridge was involved and was he an agent of Auguste Francotte in the 1870s: http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...&PHPSESSID= ????

I'm not sure who S. Sutherland might have been but he was probably the end firearms merchant.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I have the same gun marked the same way with Francotte barrels as well. Very interesting gun probably worth 300-600 in shown condition depending on bores etc...Let me know if it is for sale.

reb87:
What's on the top rib of yours? Can you read the "Crown" over "MG Bte" use number and the serial?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Here is what robert chambers said about my gun a few years ago before HOJO harassed him to his breaking point..

"OK ...it's not the patent breech that I first thought, but wow, that gun still belongs on a museum...I thought you had an example of the cap lock breech loader as can be seen in patent 119834...Geo Ferriss had many patents, but none that I have are on on that date...Rather than sway anyones interpretation of your photos along with the proofs and touchmarks, I will just show the two shotgun patents that I have and hopefully many observant eyes will result in an accurate understanding of this extremely unusual double...This gun deserves it's own thread. Even if it stalls for months 'til the right bits of Belgian data surface..That MG brevete number on the action flats will probably corresponde to that patent date. Maybe that patent will answer some questions. More likely, it'll create more questions...I'll try to run it down..
.
I can't help but wonder about the Belgian connection...Did George try to market his design abroad, like Browning and Newton did, or was he already connected to the Belgians because of his ordnance designs?

Raimey, I will go dig the gun out of my safe tomorrow or try and find the pics on my computer and let you know what it says...

Thanks Raimey, I have been trying to find info on this for years, I got it from my grandad when he passed and he had no idea about it either. The serial # on this one all matches for barrel and receiver any idea of value on it or should I just hang it back on the wall where its been for years?

Thanks for the effort and in one of the threads I see you mention that it has S.(Samuel?) Sutherland and Petrov may have already ID'd Samuel Sutherland of Richmond, Virginia: http://antiquearmsinc.com/sutherland-virginia-marked-civil-war-shotgun.htm

I would like to think that George H. Farriss was compensated for the design or like many, many other designers, he took advantage of the skill and value of the mechanics in Liege and had Auguste Francotte built it. And it may be that Auguste Francotte permeated every facet of gunmaking and was the go-to concern for executing all your design whims/needs.

Dana, where might you reside?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

sorry, I dont think I would let it go for 300 to 600.

near pueblo colorado

Ah, so no where close to Richmond, huh? Did your Grandfather live or have any relatives near Richmond or Cincinnati?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

no, grandpa came from evansville indiana area and settled near pueblo.

At face value, it would appear that there was a very small market for the George H. Farriss innovation and the Auguste Francotte concern was engaged to produce the innovative design. It is very unique and has its place in the evolution of breechloaders but has little collector value as in the scheme of gunmaking it had a second, or less, of fame. There may be a baker's dozen or so and the survival rate may by 10% - 30% of the total production. In my opinion sentimental value far out weighs the realized value and that is as best as I can frame it.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

For what it is worth, Dale Edmonds, whom many of you know, was and I think still is the owner of the Charles Daly, on the old auctionarms link. Daly

thanks for all your help, kinda cool to find this info.

Well, I'm hoping that PeteM or some other Auguste Francotte authority will have some input. The U.S. of A. sporting weapons story is so complex involving many other gunmaking centers and we have just scratched the surface. In time more details will surface so stay tuned. My true interest commences about this time as Schoverling & Daly arrive on the scene & there is just enough mechanization from the industrial revolution that psuedo-mass production of sporting weapons occurs in the Austria-Hungarian empire as well as Belgium & Germany.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Quaint 1854 advert here where Samuel Sutherland of Richmond, Virginia notes if you wish it I can get it:

http://books.google.com/books?id=T-YCAAA...ium&f=false

1855 - Virginia Gun & Pistol Emporium
http://books.google.com/books?id=3zcUAAA...ium&f=false

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I also believe sentimental value will greatly out weigh the monetary value. Of course location might affect value. But where I am, I think the gun would be a pretty tough sell at the $300-$400.00 range. Either way, it would be great to see this nice old gun in action.

gunsaholic,
My feelings exactly, that gun just cries out for my 10-12 gaugemates and a round of sporting clays with some Winchester AA Low recoil/low noise shells. Better yet a trip to the field hunting quail or pheasant with black powder reloads. I can almost hear the ghosts cheering when the first bird drops.
Steve
PS geographical area does make a difference, I've found used guns of any kind to be pricier here in Texas than they were in the mid-west.

Any Francotte experts want to weigh in on this one?

The Ferris patent is 119834 10/10/1871 Breech loading gun. So that pretty much sets the earliest date for this gun.

The best I can come up with for MG brevete is the Societe de Saint-Denis (Rosenstiehl-Poirrer). But this was a patent dying wool yellow & orange.

I can find no one that used MG as a trade mark.

Pete

Worth more than those pajamas Ill tell you that much.

Rich

pics, I have pics of the watertable that Ill look for and try to post soon, thats probably faster than going thru safes to find the gun...
Ferris

funny thing, I thought the 4919 on mine was the serial, but yours is the same as mine. any one have any ideas about the apparent serials being the same?

Anyone seen anything like this, This appears to be a serial #, however two doubles cant be serialed the same.

Joe brings one to my attention.









Here is what I have gleaned. Daly was in tune with the American sportsman. He had been dissed by the Brits and Daly was trying to find a horse to hitch up to in order to provide the sporting wares to his clients. The late 1860 & early 1870s saw a transition period where Daly switched horses depending on technology. It was this effort that took him to Suhl where he found his match. I am sure that A. Schoverling, Francotte & Peiper were real chummy. Daly took technology & had it built in either Liege or Suhl. Post Lindner period say something similar with American names like A.H. Heinen(signed by T.N. Tell) & Henry Vogt attempting to piecemeal fill the void. For you Daly fans, in the coming months keep your eyes toward GGCA for some overall info.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

George H. Farriss U.S. of A. patent Nr. 119834

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

This example was knitted by CFW being Nr. 585 & was completed in Suhl.


Charles Daly Nr. 109 with CFW initials.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=387072&page=3

The German CFW mechanic seems to be a staple for this early period.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse