GB # 269816042 16ga sxs. Very light and unique. Any info you gentleman might have would be great (NO comments from Builder on the short barrels!!!! LOL) Thanks Folks, Bob

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=269816042
Hard to say...

It seems like I've seen that "swoop" on the back of the action somewhere around here lately, but I can't remember the name of the maker. It was a pretty recent thread though.

I have a light Manufrance Ideal 16ga with those 24" barrels; they're hard to shoot. Mine is very tightly choked but usable with Polywad vintager type spreader loads. This one sounds like someone has already opened the chokes. Nice looking birdgun...Geo

I don't understand - seller says it's NOT chambered for 2 3/4 - what's it chambered for or is this a guessing game? Or am I missing something?

It's choked appropriately for the barrel length and would be very nice in a New England thicket!

The pix are inadequate - I would like to see decent in-focus pictures of the top of the barrels and the barrel flats.

Who is the maker? Why not say so? Am I again missing something?

Is the front trigger articulated? What are the proofs? Bushed strikers? What's the condition of the bores??? WHAT IS THE CHAMBER LENGTH???

The stock is plain but the grain is very straight and strong.

It really is pretty and has a lethal combination of barrel and chokes for the right situations.

My guess is that it won't sell at this price because the seller hasn't provided decent info re maker etc. Also the short barrels are currently out of flavor except to those who use them (!) and command a lower price on the market.

Just my personal opinion but this one might be a real sleeper if you are willing to work with the short barrels. Personally, I would look into it but I really don't need another shotgun.

No name French guns tend to take a hit in the price dept. I think Gnomon has pretty much covered what we don't know about this one, which is a bunch. Pretty unique gun and might be great for grouse and woodcock--but too many unknowns.

Vey nice gun, if it feels good between the hands, and one likes it, what more do you need?

Not hard at all, Joseph. I think the French ought to stay with doing what they know best: Fancy-Schmancy wines, rich food buried in even richer sauces, and assorted sexual perversions- and leave building fine side-by-side shotguns to other European Countries (Germany gets my nod- they build their guns to last forever) and to what extend the olde British bespoke gun trade (including Scotland) makes all of its own gun parts..

Geo. Newbern, I believe you're thinking of the thread my post started regarding W J Jeffery boxlocks made by G Leonard if they've got a "bow-back" action.

I believe one pic was sent in as an example. I'm still trying to getmy wife to help me post pics I've got about a hundred I promised over the years back-logged.

I would "Assume" the chambers are the standard 65mm (approx 2 9/16"). Nice way of saying it was not meant for US SAAMI shells from your local X-Mart.

Agree with Miller that the chambers are likely short. Not always marked on French guns. Some of them did have pretty stout double (and occasionally triple) proof, but they're also often pretty light, and this one is really light. Another reason not to use the Wally World stuff in this gun, even if it has the heavier proofs. The gun would probably be OK, but it'd kick the snot out of you.

Those porcupine quills are gonna get caught between the barrels. 118 posts and at leat three of them are picking on me. I think you should buy it so my arms don't get tired walking all day with a heavy fox gun that somebody sold me. Besides, i would have gotten that overhead grouse with a fast gun like that. That gun was made for your neck of the woods but shooting a light short gun like that takes a heck of a lot of practice. RST light loads would be perfect for it. You better like it because once you buy it expect it to stay with you for the rest of your life since nobody else will buy it. Very unique purpose built gun.

The last ribless, short barrel lightweights I saw was a pair of Boss 20 gauges. I think they were 75 large apiece. They had nicer wood. A friend shoots a ribless 32" Purdey pigeon gun. I think the tag on that one was $60,000.

Builder wants me to buy so he can play with it Grouse hunting! I have requested the added pics and will let you guys know what they show. The only french firearms I pick on are the army rifles, most were only dropped once! Sorry, couldn't resist. I had a Darne and the workmanship was very impressive. Thanks Bob

That's gun has been on Gunbroker.com for a long time. Looks interesting, but I don't think I could shoot 24" bbls.

OWD

I was going to buy the gun last year but couldn't talk the owner into a 1 day inspection period.

Thats what scares me, no returns! Hell, I don't have a problem with paying the shipping. When it's all or nothing, buyer beware. When I sell something, return it if you don't like the box. Time to think!

Whats not to like? Except the terms? I like it, a darlin lil gun. If the short bbls bother you, hold it further out

I would love the shorter barrels, EVEN builder knows that our northern cover is perfect for them. Just waiting for more info.

Doublefan's pictures:

Runs with the Fox, I don't know about the French being discourged from building guns. There is some pretty fantastic stuff they have built over the last 200 years if not longer, and having seen some from Granger among others I don't think their best builders are second rate at all. We just don't see them often enough in our English literature or gunshows. GIs didn't get to drag a lot of them home after the war as France was not a conquered country like Germany.

Double proof, which is good. Alex Martin was another maker that did the ribless sxs thing.

The French--unlike the Spanish, Germans, Italians, and Brits--never really made a concerted attempt to penetrate the US shotgun market. But from the French doubles I've seen, it's unusual to find one that's not well-made, even if very plain. Manufrance Robusts are the ones we see most often, and they were more or less the Stevens 311 of France in terms of numbers made--but much higher quality. And the "quirky" title definitely has to go to the French: Darne/Charlin, Manufrance Ideal, Petrik OU. They didn't all just copy each other, for sure.

The owner says the maker is A. Weber, chambers are 65mm with a 4 digit ser. # Does Weber ring any bells?

A. Weber could well have been the dealer that sold it. RWTF needs to think and search his own preconceived feelings before he posts his idiotic comments. Like Jerry said, the French have built some pretty fantastic (and unique) guns over the years. Even if you don't like the French (for whatever reason) that doesn't take away their design genius. As far as quality goes, all of the French guns I've seen have been of excellent quality by nearly anyone’s standards.
Steve

As noted upthread, this gun has been on GB for quite a while - at least one and perhaps two years. Also as noted, this is a gun very well suited to use in the thick, for those who like light and short. I think it's still overpriced, even at the reduced price. (As a side note, about a month ago a friend invited me grouse hunting over a couple dogs he's rehabbing and insisted I use his 24 inch barrel Browning 20 ga O/U. In the tangles of bittersweet and multiflora rose we worked, it was a very manageable gun.)

Now, as to the French thing some have expressed. I regularly use a prewar 16 ga French sxs, 27.5 inch barrels. It's a light, solid, and very well made gun. It handles perfectly in grouse and woodcock coverts and carries well all day. I bought it ($500) from the son of the GI who took it as his trophy from a barn in the Norman countryside in the summer of '44. Most of the older (prewar) French guns I've seen have some problem or other with pitted barrels (mine doesn't - I held out for a gun without pitting problems), which I attribute to corrosive primers in a relatively damp climate and perhaps a less-than-assiduous approach to cleaning. The craftsmanship I've seen has been uniformly very good or better, and the design, fit and finish excellent.

I also own and use a German gun (RWTF, I'm looking at you ... ), a Simson 12 ga sxs, and it works perfectly well for small game, too. It's just a different gun.

I think it's fair to say that we here in the USofA don't know quite enough about French guns b/c they never really tried to make a dent in our market (unlike, say, the Belgians) or b/c not enough came home as trophies (unlike the German guns picked off piles after May 8 '45). But that does not mean the French guns are not excellent guns.

As to this one: I'll pass - de gustibus. I'm not fond of the ribless design.

One thing no one's mentioned is that French gun barrels are general measured in metric lengths, hence guns like Dave in Maine's having 27.5" barrels (and being uncut).
Steve

Maybe the French gun culture whereas one gun does all and then is passed down from generation to generation, for example, the eldest being the recipient of the then father’s shotgun and then and only then the rest of the sons having to go out and buy their own shotgun to begin the process all over again? With this type of gun culture throughout France, the French gun manufacturers felt that supplying the French population with guns was the only business they really needed. No? Or am I completely full of…………….?

Agree with Dave about pitting on quite a few French guns, which I've also attributed to the old corrosive primers.

One other issue to look out for in French doubles is very heavy trigger pulls. Not sure why that's more common than, say, with British guns. But trigger work can be pricey. So if a heavy trigger is an issue for you, make sure you drop in a couple snap caps and check before you make the deal.

Why do you think this is "French gun culture?"

I've never heard nor experienced this sort of thing.

So, I am full of $hit!!

From what I've saw their product couldn't compete....I've handled only one French hammer gun that I thought competed with an English gun.

Not sure about the name I believe it was something like Parley or Perley ?

Some would say that the Brits never came up with anything to compete with the Darne. Then again, maybe they didn't want to!

I suspect that the answer is 'didn't want to'! I have seen several nice-looking Darne guns (only in photos, I've never handled one) but the relatively cumbersome opening/reloading process would not suit the fast action of driven shooting.

The 'relatively cumbersome opening/reloading process' is an assumption on my part, and I'm willing to be proved wrong.

Nigel

No, I didn't say that.

I was just wondering why you thought "French gun culture" was as you described it.

Nuttin' more!

For example, Chapuis make very nice shotguns and double rifles (I have one of the latter) but altho the Chapuis DRs are common in the US the shotguns are much less so.

http://www.chapuis-armes.com/category.php?id_category=1

I've owned a Darne, Very well made and was fun to play with. I think it was made to work with the old paper shells of the day and even if they were swelled they could still be chambered. Also I have seen and handled a few real beaters and even these were still tight. Mine was a prewar and I didn't care for the safety. I think the later ones had a better setup. I'm in touch with the owner of the sxs in the topic, we'll see!

I've owned a Darne. Couldn't adjust the stock to fit me and couldn't shoot it worth a darn. Fun to play with though. Not a keeper.

FWIW, Darnes have that through-stock bolt and an earned reputation for stocks being darn near impossible to bend/adjust.

I was lucky with my Darne R-10; the stock fits me to a T and the 27.5" barrels are choked IC and Mod. The barrels even have a raised rib. I try to hunt with it a few times every year, but I can never remember whether the safety goes forward to shoot or backward. Don't worry, I always work that out before heading to the field. The reloading is actually pretty slick...Geo

I have two Chapuis shotguns, 16 ga and 20. Love them both. Have taken the 20 to both Argentina and Hungary. Never a single problem and the 20 is still as tight as new.

I've owned one and played with quite a few others. Agree that they would not be my choice for driven shooting, especially not if the action is pretty fast.

Here is one I have been using for a few years: Nice and light, under lever. I haven't been able to determine its provenance but it's a nice shooter. It is a very simple sidelock.

Thats a neat gun, are you sure its french?

I think it was from the period between the wars. Proofed in St. Etienne. 6.5 chambers. 17.1 ga. with all the French" choke rectifie. acier de puree garantil suete. etc, etc.

That's a good-looking gun - sleek, svelte and screaming "French". Handles like a dream, right?

I like it...

"Soup steel"???

Larry: oui

Gil,

Are you sure about all the French spellings? I can't reconcile 'purée' with 'acier'. Just being interested here, not critical.

Nigel

Nigel, I think Gil was working from memory (with maybe a little humor) rather than looking at the barrel flats when he made that post. That's why I asked the question (with the smiley) about "soup steel". I'd guess it might be "acier pur".

With all due respect, Puree is *not* it.
Here is an off the cuff list of barrel verbiage that might help.
Not all stamping is good and many are weak in the ends.

cannon: barrel
surete: safety
purete: purity
guaranti(e): guaranteed
crochet(s): lumps
encastre(s): dovetailed
rectifie(s): ground
acier: steel
brevete: patented
poudre: powder
pyroxylee: smokeless
en long: longitudinal
portee: range
epreuve: proof
normale: standard
renforcee: reinforced
double: double
triple: treble
damas: damascus
fondu: melt

also note that Mens-Mart in the above shotgun refers to the Siemens-Martin steel process.

Best regards,
WC-

Another term sometimes seen in French for smokeless powder is poudre blanche.

Rectifie . . . I've never translated that as "ground", but rather adjusted or trued up (referring to barrels or chokes).

Sometimes, on French guns, you find about half a novel on the barrel flats!

Thanks much for the French-English dictionary. This should be bookmarked for future reference....

Hi Larry,
You are right, but in the machining world, "rectifieuse" is and has always been a grinder as in surface grinder, centerless grinder, etc.,hence my translation.
I forgot a few things (at least):
pierrage=honing
demi-bloc= you guess
ejecteurs= ditto
crochets rapportes= non-integral lumps (same as encastres;
note that this *could* refer to shoe lumps as well, but I have never seen a French shoe lumped gun).
poudre vive= smokeless (in Belgium)
fabrication mecanique=machine fabrication (meaning interchangeable parts, industrial machining, rather than hand made, one of a kind)
arquebusier= gun maker and dealer
armurier= gun dealer
armurerie= gun shop
successeur = successor to
cannonier= barrel maker
fait pour= made for

Best regards,
WC-

WC, you forgot the best one of all:
ailes=sideclips

You're right on rectifieuse, and the guy who operates the machine is un rectifieur. But since it pretty much goes without saying that you have to grind the chokes, I think adjusting or truing them up (chokes or barrels) works better for rectifie.

Armurier/arquebusier are more or less synonyms, the latter being an older word. But "armurier" can mean someone who makes, repairs, or sells guns--all 3. "Armurerie"--one of the hardest words to pronounce in French because of all the r's--is indeed a gun shop, and that's what you'd look for in the directory if you wanted to visit gun shops in a French or Belgian city.

Actually, in France, sideclips = oreilles (i.e. ears).
The Belgians do use a slightly different terminology.
I was "limiting" myself to words likely to be found on the barrels. Doing a gunsmithing dictionary is an entirely different endeavor which cannot be taken lightly...To be continued...
WC-

WC,I believe you'll find that "oreilles" does not refer to sideclips, but rather specifically to the "ears" on the "key" of a Darne-type action. "Ailerons" is also used by the Belgians, and even translated into English, in a Masquelier catalog I have, as "side wings".

Okay Wild Cattle and L. Brown, back to work, lets get that French/Belgium gunsmithing dictionary completed! I really like French shotguns and have been saving all the translations that you guys have posted so far . I wants more, more and still more .
Seriously, thanks for the information you've posted so far.
Steve

Just a thought, might "acier puree" (if that is how it was marked) be "alloy steel"??

Hi Larry,
Again, my Francotte catalog says "aileron" while my French literature (manufacture de St-Etienne, Verney-Carron, Flobert, etc...) consistently shows "oreilles" for sideclips.
More Belgian/French discrepancies...
After all, even the numbers 70 and 90 are called differently in both countries.

A few other barrel related words:
bande=top rib
tire-cartouche=extractor
verrou=grip (as in Purdey grip)
guidon=front sight
devant=fore-end
longuesse=ditto

WC-

Due to the soft nature of "puree" i.e. literally "mashed potatoes", no sane person would use it for barrel verbiage, the only reasonable behavior upon reading it being to flee away as far away as humanly feasible from such a gun.
Doubtless, some letters are missing from the word, either at the stamping, or far more likely at the reading stage.
"Purete" is possible but far more common would be "surete"
respectfully,
WC-

Interesting on "oreilles". What I have from V-C doesn't include any term for sideclips. Nor Granger. Indeed, linguistic discrepancies.

And I'd stick with bolt for verrou, because while a gun savvy Brit might understand grip in that sense, an American is going to think straight, pistol, etc.

And don't forget . . . Inspector Clouseau works for the Surete.

It looks like a nice gun. If it fits and handles well, why not?

My only experinence with the French are the two sliding breech models I have. My first a nice little 28ga Darne fits me perfectly and will be then one I keep until, well. The other is a pre war Charlin 16ga. It's a little short but a slip on leather kick eze pad helps there.