I just bought a pre-1899 antique Lefever on an internet auction site and the seller is requiring that an FFL copy is provided for shipping to the FFL dealer. It is easily verified that this gun is truly pre-1899 via the LACA website production dates list, and other sources such as the Elliot books.

This has happened to me before and my FFL dealer claims that he has to run the instant check and enter the gun in his books since the seller has transferred the gun from his books. Of course, there is a charge for this that I have to factor into the total amount I wish to pay for a particular gun. If that was true and an FFL dealer entered a replica black powder gun into his books, would every subsequent sale of that replica through an FFL require the Instant Check and form 4478 transfer? To me, this is akin to buying a bicycle on e-bay and having the seller require a copy of my drivers license and registration of the bicycle from my State Dept. of Motor Vehicles.

I just decided a long time ago to avoid all this crap and buy locally or only from online dealers that at least accept and understand C&Rs. Many of these "Gunbroker" sellers are clueless as to the regulations and, to me, it isn't worth arguing with them. By the time you pay shipping,insurance and for an unnecessary FFL transfer it usually isn't worth it.
Jim

Keith,
The answer is no. Your FFL dealer does not have to enter the transfer in his book. The book is required only for firearms and this shotgun, in the eyes of the BATFE, is not a firearm. Since this isn't a firearm, no check is required either. I know this because I just picked up my FFL, after months of hassle with the town board, so it's still fresh in my memory. To back this up, I've got a friend who's been selling guns for years, and is also a lawyer, who has instructed me along these lines as well.
I would ask my FFL to simply send them a copy. Don't bother entering it at all, or enter it with a note stating it's an antique. At that point he has no further requirements according to the law. I doubt you'll get the seller to back down, just from past experience.
Luck,
Jim

Thanks for the replies thus far. I was 99.9% sure that the answer from JimfromTrafalgar was the correct one because my old FFL guy would accept shipment of the antique gun and give it to me without the paperwork and check required for a post 1898 firearm. That still meant two twenty mile trips to his shop... one for the FFL copy, and one to pick up the gun.

Does anyone know where I could access a copy of this portion of the law to prove my point? I can understand where some FFL's would wish to err on the side of caution, and naturally, most do not have a firearms library or data to show when a particular gun was made. But I have offered proof of manufacture date to a couple sellers who remained obstinate. Like italiansxs, I mostly choose not to deal with them. If the total of my bid, plus shipping, plus an unnecessary FFL transfer fee, plus the extra hassle amounts to less than I could buy the same gun for locally, then I may go for it. Quite a few have lost my business because they wish to act like some Banana Republic dictator.

If it's in some place like NJ, an FFL is still required AFAIK. The State law does not ackn the Fed Antique Status there (nor C&R). Other States have similar laws. NY does not ackn Antique Status of a cartridge handgun (one very grey area about obsolete chamberings aside).

But you're most probably up against an FFL that wants to dazzle the compliance agents with paperwork when they come knocking.
As already stated, you probably can't convince him otherwise.

Most FFL's are in extreme CYA mode as of the last few years.
Their call, their license.
I've always figured just following the printed rules was a good tactic.

This particular gun is coming from Kalifornia, and the seller just e-mailed a reply to my question about this. He said, "this gun was taken in under our state system and is on our A&D books as a firearm, and it need to leave our store as a firearm through a licensed dealer." So perhaps someone could tell me if Kommunist Kalifornia has special rules that exceed Federal firearms statutes pertaining to antiques such as Kutter references. There was some confusion on shipping charges and he was quick to rectify that, so at least he's not being obstinate.

I'd at least like to be able to educate my current FFL guy so he could simply accept the package and hand it to me without unnecessary B.S., and then I could toss him a $10 or $15 tip like I did with my now retired buddy.

Like Jim posted, you might consider a C&R (and you don't even need that for a antique firearm but at least he "might" send you the gun),and check before bidding with some of these dealers that are not interested in business from buyers with C&R's or in your case reading antique firearms rules.

Here is the ATF definition of antique,who knows or cares what those Liberal aholes in Kalif's definition is but federally your fine with it getting shipped to you-they may want a proof of age (DL) but ,again this should be spelled out before bidding.


http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/collectors.html

"What qualifies as an antique firearm?

As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

…

any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898;"

and from the G/B site for shipping

"'Antique' firearms need not be shipped to a licensed dealer. These can be shipped directly to the buyer. An antique firearm is a firearm built in or before 1898, or a replica thereof."

I can say as a dealer, many dealers dont know the law. I sell on the internet and get buyers that have dealers refusing to send me an FFL unitl I send them a copy of mine. When asked why, they say that they want to make sure I am an FFL before they send theirs. I guess they think someone will do ?????

I have had other dealers try to tell me that a mauser reciever doesnt require an FFL. "its not a comeplet gun" they say.

I could go on. Same for UPS, Post office etc. too many people dont know the law.

I sell and ship to C&R all the time any gun that meets the criteria.

Very frustrating at times.

Those that know say "C&R OK" for 50+. Those that don't say "FFL required" and you can bet they mean 01. As for pre-98 and bp, I haven't encountered many who think more is required than an address and postage.

jack

Thanks again for the replies. I just went to the link Dave K provided and found the ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (2005), and spent about an hour skimming over that. Under General Questions, pg.175 Question A3: Do antique firearms come within the purview of the GCA? The answer is simply "No". I do plan to study this area in more detail, but it sure looks as though dealers who enter Antique guns in their bound books are doing something they are not legally required to do. I can't even find anthing that requires a simple notation in the bound book of the fact that an acquisition is an "Antique". I think I'll call the ATF Field Office for my state to make sure I'm reading things correctly.

How we can politely inform, and educate, and otherwise convince dealers that this is unnecessary is another story. I guess it wouldn't hurt a thing to make a simple notion in the book as Jim mentioned, but going through the whole rigamarole of NICS check and 4473 form is just additional expense and hassle. I have considered going the C&R route, but as noted here in the past, too many 01's won't deal with them in the manner prescribed by law.

Think $$$$$$$$ here. If a FFL holder convinces the owner that he should make the transfer and it should be made to another FFL holder in the buyers State that's money in both their pockets.
I ran into this situation with a couple(two)C&R guns a few years ago. The seller had talked to an FFL holder who convinced him he would get into trouble for sending these firearms to someone with a C&R License. The Seller/FFL licensee wanted $100** per gun to do the transfer at his end. I of course would have had to pay the receiving FFL holder in my State as well.
Jim

**Yes. There's still "Highway Robbery" practioners out there!

What I have never understood in the FFL licensing is whether there is a mandate to sell when the letter of the law has been met, or is it like a liquor license that has the clause "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".
For example if one has a real estate license but refuses to show a house because of the potential buyer's race or gender, they can potentially lose their license and be fined.
Does an FFL holder have the right to refuse to sell a gun to a potential buyer (who has every legal right to purchase that gun) because the buyer refuses to pay a fee that is not required under Federal Law?
I suppose the only answer would be to sue one of these guys in Federal Court in the case where a demand for a fee not required to legally purchase a gun coming under the BATF antique clause is made.
Any lawyers out there want to volunteer?

Happy New Year to all.

Well, there is a bit of gray area here that we have to contend with too. I still don't know if Kalifornia has laws that legally supercede federal requirements for transfer of guns into and out of that state. If they do, would they be violating the rulings under the Heller Decision, and would rectifying that require extensive and expensive legal wrangling? The big problem for almost all dealers is that when many guns come across their counters, they have no easy way of knowing just when a particular gun was made. In the case of the one I just bought, it is only 500 serial numbers shy of being beyond being classified as an antique. But it's still frustrating that even after I offer to submit documentation proving manufacture date on an antique, some dealers still won't budge. With some, I'm sure it's the prospect of getting paid $20 to $100 for a few minutes work, and with others, it's just a matter of not wishing to make the effort to learn the law. I guess we can't forget the CYA line of reasoning too.

This crap is precisely why we need to remain vigilant against further erosions of our Second Amendment rights, and most importantly in the immediate future... to get rid of Obama before he pulls any more "Fast and Furious" stunts or gets another crack at stacking the Supreme Court against us. If he had his way, we would be paying for instant checks and transfers for antiques that we decide to give to our own kids.

There is even more confusion when you study the sections covering IF the antique firearm uses ammunition that is readily available. The rules covering reproductions of antique firearms gets hard to understand. The rule book mixes rules for reproductions with rules for antiques and it gets nuts. The BATFE even has a comic book trying to explain some of their rules and regulations. I cannot even understand parts of the comic book and a 7 year old is suppose to be able to understand it. The BATFE wrote the rules this way to make sure that we could not follow them all. We have to wait for someone to get arrested and taken to court before a judge and wait for the judges ruling on the charges so we can know what a particular rule really means. Happy New Year To You ALL.

Colt SAA's are a good case in point. I have a 4 digit serial no. gun sitting here as I type this that I was sent for an evaluation. This particular pistol was inspected and sent with many others to the U S Army in 1874. Since the pistol was made in 1874 which is well before 1898 it is by the BATF definition an antique. However; This pistol is chambered in 45 Long Colt. Before the advent of Cowboy Action Shooting this may have been a non-issue but that shooting activity has revived many obsolete cartridges such as 45 Long Colt,38WCF,32WCF,etc. These cartridges are now readily available and can be purchased almost in any shop. Does this mean this SAA is now NOT an antique?
Or how about a Springfield 45-70 Trapdoor rifle? of around the same vintage. There has also been a resurgance of interest in this caliber for multiple reasons and 45-70 cartridges are readily available again. Does this mean that a 19th Century single shot rifle is now NOT an antique?
Gentlemen: I await your opinions.
Jim

Jim, If your question is ever ruled on in favor of removing the antique label on a gun for which ammunition is readily available all of our old doubles will be in question. Ammunition for the short chambered antiques with the possible exception of sub- 10 gauges and 14 gauges is now readily availble from companies such as RST, Polywad, New Era and others. On the other hand that does not remove them from the Curios and Relics catagory. Anyone who is legally able to obtain firearms can get a C&R license for $35 for 3 years.
I have no problem with anyone who wants a copy of my C&R for a pre-1899 gun in order to satisfy themselves that I am indeed eligible to buy firearms. However, I refuse to pay a fee for the opportunity.

Ready availability of ammunition has nothing to do with the issue of an antique firearm in the US.

If the gun predates 1899 it is an antique under federal law and is not regulated as a firearm - period. The only issue is proving its pre-1899 manufacture date.

If the gun does not use fixed ammunition (a muzzle loader) the date of manufacture does not matter and it is not regulated as a firearm under federal law even if it was made today.

The rule is clear. Guns with receivers producded prior to 1899 are antiques according to BATF, independent of whether or not cartridges for them are readily available. For example, I have a letter from the BATF research staff stating that Ludwig & Loewe marked M95 Chilean Mausers are all officially antiques, since Ludwig & Loewe ceased their production prior to 1899. (For those marked DWM, this is not necessarily the case, since they may have been producded in 1899 or later). The Ludwig & Loewe Mausers are all officially antiques, even though 7x57 ammunition has always been easily available.

The question of cartidge availability is only relevant for replicas, manufactured post-1898, of earlier guns.

Some states Like NY and NJ (possibly others) DO NOT consider the 1874 mfg'r Colt SAA in 45Colt an 'Antique'.
4473/NICS/pistol permit (or 01FFL) to purchase .

Confusing laws like that are why FFL's just opt for an FFL copy for any purchase . CYA.

It also must be remembered on the Lefevers, which I believe is the gun in question here, there are no concise records as to build dates. Bob Eliot gives his list as a "Reasonable Estimate" (My Words) but he makes no claim that they are exact, only from research that has been done. It is a well known fact that many of these guns were built out of sequence of their SNs. One "Might" be reasonably safe in selling any pre-large hook Lefever as an antique, but if I were a selling dealer I would definitely treat any large hook Lefever as a "Firearm".

I have always believed that any firearm made prior to 1899 qualified as an "antique" under BATF regulations. However; Please carefully read Section B item ii below.
Jim



Q: What qualifies as an antique firearm?
As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means —

… A.any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
B.any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica — i.is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
ii.uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or

C.any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term ‘antique firearm’ shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

If your are dealing with a gun manufactured prior to 1899, section A is all you need. Sections B and C give additional reasons for guns to not be considered fireams. Notice the "or" before sections B and C.

In section A, read carefully. The part in parenthesis, saying "including", this does not mean "only" Just like the sentence, "Mammals (including dogs and cats) are warm-blooded animals." does not mean only dogs and cats.

If you don't understand this, send a letter to the BATF for a written statement. Ask them about the Colt Single Action, for example.

The key to antique status based on Section A is proving manufacture prior to 1899 to the satisfaction of the BATF.

As I am not an attorney, this is not legal advice, just my personal opinion. Contacting an attorney specializing in firearm questions, or the BATF, is recommended for actual legal advice.

I note that in another current thread, "BUYING FROM CALIFORNIA", the respondants all claim that there is no special treatment for Antiques there. But my seller has already entered this gun in his A&D book and I sure don't see him scribbling it out now. Hopefully I will be able to show my FFL that there is no need to continue treating this particular antique as a post 1898 firearm.

The gun in question arrived today and my FFL claimed that he had to do a transfer if it was entered in the sellers books. After a bit of discussion where I quoted some of the replies here, he called the ATF field office and was told to enter it in his book as an Antique, but no transfer was necessary.

Many thanks to all.

Geez Keith:
You got a sensible answer from those folks??
Jim

Well Jim, my FFL dealer did take note of the name of the agent he spoke with and recorded that in his book as well. C.Y.A., I guess.