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Posted By: gjw Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 02:44 AM
Hi all, who does a good job sleeving over here in the states?

Also, what is the approximate cost?

Thanks so much!!!

Greg
Posted By: Doverham Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 02:58 AM

Hugh Lomas
Posted By: postoak Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 03:11 AM
Kirk Merrington, also.

Cost ? Alot.
Posted By: Run With The Fox Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 03:57 AM
Just curious- what make and gauge shotgun do you have that you are considering having a sleve job done to??
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 12:17 PM
I have seen several Pahkas that were sleeved by Briley that I was very impressed with the quality of workmanship. Better than I would have expected, somehow. Cost, around $1000, according to the owner.

SRH
Posted By: gjw Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 12:47 PM
Originally Posted By: Run With The Fox
Just curious- what make and gauge shotgun do you have that you are considering having a sleve job done to??


As we are humans and are curious folks, here's your answer. I have a line on a high grade W.R. Droplock, 12b. The action and wood are excellent, but the bbls are shot (pardon the pun).

Just in the thinking stage.

All the best!

Greg
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 01:04 PM
Dewey Vicknair. Look at his site. He does a TIG'd sleeve and there is no solder joint.
Posted By: wburns Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 01:07 PM
Be careful! Next thing you will know, you will have a closet full of cripples like me.
Posted By: Stallones Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 03:03 PM
Stan,Kirk Merrington probably did the sleeving at Briley since he worked there before setting up his own shop. I do not think they have a quality workman there to do this now.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 03:24 PM
Greg,
Prices seem to be running in the $1500-2000 range with blueing.

There's an old English smith up in the Ontario Canada area that quoted me about $900 U.S. dollars about 7-8 yrs ago. His website is http://www.precisionarms.ca/Images/WebPages/GGSWhole.htm

I don't know what he charges now nor how hard it is to get a gun into Canada and back out. Canada did repeal some laws governing long guns recently. Possibly it's easier now.
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 03:39 PM
Kirk sleeved my two Langs 10 or so years ago. If I had another, I'd send it to him.

Jim
Posted By: Kensal Rise Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 04:07 PM
gjw:
For a good Westley, there is only one real choice in the US: Kirk Merrington.

Remember: you will have to live with the workmanship for the rest of your life. What is a few dollars compared to something less?
Posted By: Colonial Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 04:17 PM
I don't know what he charges now nor how hard it is to get a gun into Canada and back out. Canada did repeal some laws governing long guns recently. Possibly it's easier now. [/quote]

A large part of the problem seems to be on the US side with the export permits, Homeland Security, etc.
As to the repeal of the long gun registry, it ain't a fact yet, but we are sure hoping.
Posted By: postoak Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/02/11 07:53 PM
Greg - If I were you I would look into Teague Lining, if if is just the interior of the barrels that are whupped.
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/03/11 12:05 AM
safe, reliable sleeving of sxs guns can be accomplished for under $1000. however, do not expect cosmetic perfection for that price.
Posted By: Franc Otte Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/03/11 02:13 AM
To me, the cosmetics are priority one,assuming the new tubes are straight,safe & wont fall off.To even consider sleeving it would have to something pretty nice,& to mess it up with a crappy looking joint would be just daft imho ( like some of those hideous Westley Richards jobs I've seen with SLEEVED BY ETC hammered deeply into the outside of the tubes,,yuk!)
What does Master Gunsmith Ed Landers charge for this service, if he does it?
franc
Posted By: Drew Hause Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/03/11 02:42 AM
Indeed

Posted By: Franc Otte Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/03/11 02:47 AM
OOOouch!!! smile
Where would we be without Photoshop?
franc
Posted By: Stanton Hillis Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/03/11 03:06 AM
Leighton,

I was told that the smiths' name, at Briley, that does the sleeving now is Jeff Nealy, and that he was trained by Kirk.

I'm going to be calling them sometime soon about doing a set of Fox barrels that has a bad right barrel due to a failed bulge repair. I've got a hankering for a set of 34" barrels, struck so that they're not muzzle heavy. John had two Parkers like that. Amazingly nimble for their length.

SRH
Posted By: Cameron Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/03/11 03:42 AM
Here's a link to Briley's pricing for sleeve work.

http://www.briley.com/2009/shotgungunsmithingpricing.html
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 01:49 AM
drew: i am sure you have reasons for publishing your picture. if they are positive, perhaps you could elaborate...however, if they are negative, then perhaps you should consider carefully, before heading down that slippery slope?
Posted By: battle Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 04:31 AM
Originally Posted By: ed good
drew: i am sure you have reasons for publishing your picture. if they are positive, perhaps you could elaborate...however, if they are negative, then perhaps you should consider carefully, before heading down that slippery slope?



LOLOLOLOLOL
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 08:02 AM
Originally Posted By: Drew Hause
Indeed



He stamps his name nice an neat...
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 02:31 PM
if you go lookin for trouble...it is likely to find you...
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 02:39 PM
How much does Ed charge for the bob job ?
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 07:33 PM
joe: not sure these days, but somewhere around $1000. i know he ran out of barrel blanks recently and bought a fresh batch of blanks for an english source. as barrel blanks are the major material cost for a sleeving job, that may have caused his finished price to go up? anyway, i know ed's barrel work. like all other gun work that he does, it is above all safe. secondly, he will regulate the barrels to whatever distance you would like for the shot charges to converge. one gun that comes to mind that he sleeved is a parker ph 12 bore. it's new owner was amazed that it put one pattern right on top of the other at 30 yards!

if you want cosmetic perfection, with no seams showing, then ed is not the smith for you. i understand that there are other smiths who do fine cosmetic work with no seams showing. however, i understand they charge around $2000 for a finished job.
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 09:00 PM



SLE ST 12ga Delivered 1902

Sleeved by Kirk in 1998

Used hard since, though I always thought the blacking was thin.

12ga Trigger plate action delivered 1880

Original 30" Damascus tubes were trashed

Sleeved by Kirk in 2000

Still in the white, maybe this winter I'll get to finishing them cool


Jim
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 09:17 PM
Jim, I have a trigger plate 12 bore Lang with poor barrels, can I see a pic of your action, please?
Mike
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 10:50 PM


Here you go, Mike





Let me know if there's something in particular you need a photo of. I shot it for first time (long, strange trip, it's been) this fall- 300 shells, it needs more cast off.

Jim
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 11:26 PM
kirk appears to do wonderful looking work.
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/04/11 11:54 PM
Thank you, Jim. Nice gun.
I have my gun on the desk here, similar fine engraving, but my gun, s/n 6708 does not have the brass cocking indicators (?) nor that great fat screwhead sticking out of the LH sideplate. What is that for, reinforcement?
My lever is very finely engraved, is yours? My lever sits closer to the trigger guard. I can't post pics, but if someone comes in to assist I can send that helpful person a pic by e-mail.
This is the gun that Ho JoE has insulted twice, by the way.
Mike
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/05/11 01:21 AM
I call that screw, "The screw to nowhere" it has no function that I can figger out. I'm not certain whether the gold nibs are cocking indicators(currently not functioning) or if they are vents. I'll have to pull the the pins above and the striker disks and see what it is all about.

The lever is engraved and the gun was re-jointed by Kirk when it was sleeved. I have a single slide of the gun as I got it, if I ever find it I'll compare the lever position-- or not. I'm much more a big picture guy once I own something wink

Eventually, I'll get the screws redone and timed up, black the furniture and the barrels, and call it good for a while.


It's a crazy old gun from early on in the period of transition to hammerless guns. It's certainly understandable how it's significance could fly right over the head of someone like JoE whistle

It's also naughty (in a Victorian sort of way), if you remove the trigger plate, hold it vertical, and view the lock works straight on, it looks like a ....



Stanton made the lock in my SLE as well as this gun, an interesting tidbit from the standpoint of a vendor relationship lasting 20+ years. Methinks old Jos. Lang must've been decent guy.

Jim
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/05/11 01:25 AM
Originally Posted By: Mike Bonner
I can't post pics, but if someone comes in to assist I can send that helpful person a pic by e-mail.
This is the gun that Ho JoE has insulted twice, by the way.
Mike


As I recall...His gun has little in common with the gun you posted.
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/05/11 01:16 PM
My gun was in rough shape when I bought it, pitted and perforated barrels, dinged, dirty, shrunken, and worn wood, off face, and a mainspring broke during test firing after sleeving. I came to it through a now departed, gem of a man and gun dealer who called me first, after he, "Had to buy it, to get some Winchesters" that were his forte.

On the advice and with help from, "my dear old uncle" Jack Rowe, I had a pair of mainsprings made in England. The stock was refinished/checkered as best possible and the Silvers pad added by a gunsmith friend of mine.

Old guns can come back from fairly remarkable depths if you know the people, have the money and patience to put into them. Aside from warm regard I have Jack, Kirk, and the others that have touched this old gun, I got in cheap enough as to still be below the "upside down" point- I think.



An added bonus is the opportunity is to show up at LC Smith Collectors Assn shoot and befuddle an old friend.

Jim
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 12:49 AM
That's the third time jOe has insulted my Lang!
Well, it was very very cheap to buy, the stock has been repaired,(free), it's on face, with the free damascus tubes from my Belgian gun, no cost, given to me, I think I can make a silk purse out of this old sow's ear.
I might have $900.00 in this old beauty when I'm done
Mike
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 12:59 AM
Mike,have any gun photos to share?
Posted By: Bob Blair Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 07:30 AM
Quote:

if you want cosmetic perfection, with no seams showing, then ed is not the smith for you. i understand that there are other smiths who do fine cosmetic work with no seams showing.


Guess I don't understand why, on a vintage gun that you thought highly enough of to sleeve the barrels, you would settle for anything other than fine cosmetic work. Except for the "Master Gunsmith's" work, those sleeve job pics are amazing. I'm thinking I need to start looking for a beautiful old receiver with crappy barrels to send to Kirk.
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 12:29 PM

Sleeving, in theory, is a very straightforward procedure. Especially when cosmetics are not a priority.

Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 01:34 PM
Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer

It's a crazy old gun from early on in the period of transition to hammerless guns. It's certainly understandable how it's significance could fly right over the head of someone like JoE


Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer

12ga Trigger plate action delivered 1880


Top lever opening had been out for almost 10 years...what I see is a gun that was basically a design failure.

Sorry if it flew right over the head of someone like BeN.
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 02:31 PM
Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer

Sleeving, in theory, is a very straightforward procedure. Especially when cosmetics are not a priority.





ben: nice job...who did the work?
Posted By: Doverham Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 03:14 PM
Quote:
Top lever opening had been out for almost 10 years...what I see is a gun that was basically a design failure


Just like all those hammer guns that continued to be made after internal hammers were introduced . . . .
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 04:44 PM
The hammer gun was not a design failure...it's stood the test of time.

I figure Lang was just too cheap to pay the Royalty to use the Scott top lever and thought he could design something better....The under lever like on the Lang was like'n to a fart in a whirlwind.

Check the first picture of his later Lang from what little I can see the barrel extension appears to be for a Scott screw grip action ?

Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer


SLE ST 12ga Delivered 1902


Posted By: Doverham Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 06:46 PM
Quote:
The hammer gun was not a design failure...it's stood the test of time


The gun in question apparently still opens and closes and shoots - that would indicate it has stood the test of time too.

Dig's website has a gallery of actions, many of which are "design failures" by Brit makers who preferred to use their own design than pay royalties on others patents. Actions Gallery

Now Lang's Vena Contracta - that could be labeled a "design failure."
Posted By: gunman Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 07:06 PM
The lang looks like a Scott ? More than likely it was made by Webley and Scott . As was the Vena Contracta .
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 09:33 PM
Originally Posted By: Doverham
Quote:
The hammer gun was not a design failure...it's stood the test of time


The gun in question apparently still opens and closes and shoots - that would indicate it has stood the test of time too.

What I meant by design failure and standing the test of time has nothing do with the gun still functioning....the design didn't stand the test of time and was basically unwanted by the gun trade.

Examples that did...the W&C Scott top lever and Purdey double under-bolt.
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 10:35 PM
Originally Posted By: ed good
Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer

Sleeving, in theory, is a very straightforward procedure. Especially when cosmetics are not a priority.





ben: nice job...who did the work?


It's a Linder Daly I stumbled upon at Guns International
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/06/11 11:00 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer

It's a crazy old gun from early on in the period of transition to hammerless guns. It's certainly understandable how it's significance could fly right over the head of someone like JoE


Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer

12ga Trigger plate action delivered 1880




Top lever opening had been out for almost 10 years...what I see is a gun that was basically a design failure.

Sorry if it flew right over the head of someone like BeN.


So any gun that doesn't have a top lever is a "failure"?

Interesting.
Posted By: old colonel Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 01:58 AM
I disagree that because the design did not stand the test of popularity or even mechanical excellence that it is a failure.

If that were true then guns, then any design not still made today could implicitly be tripe. Further, hammer guns and alike would be passe.

The reality is that designs that either did not succeed because of function, fashion, manufacturing cost, etc can still be a true pleasure to own and shoot.

It would be poor sportmanship to belittle another's treasure.

I learned young to respect other's dogs and guns. The best shot I have ever seen (and best fly caster too) shot a very worn remington 11. The best pair guns I ever saw scored a 12 at sporting clays, though the guy shooting them was true gentleman and even let me shoot a few clays too. Both situations are good memories and I am better or them.

Posted By: Doverham Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 03:12 AM
Quote:
It would be poor sportmanship to belittle another's treasure.


Unfortunately, some here actually consider that to be sport.

Quote:
the design didn't stand the test of time and was basically unwanted by the gun trade.


How many guns that have been profiled in the DGJ would qualify as "design failures" under this definition? Certainly all those 1870s guns Dig profiled last spring would have to be dismissed out of hand as design failures. Take that 34-bore William Ford with the trigger guard activated Purdey bite - what a POS!!!
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 12:39 PM
Originally Posted By: old colonel


It would be poor sportsmanship to belittle another's treasure.


In order to be belittled or have the gun "run down" there would have to be some sort of existing delusion of grandeur or expectation of value on my part. I know this gun well having owned it since 1999, it's been applauded and cursed (sometimes in the same sentence), by some of the best in the business wink

As has been the case on this board since it's early days, there are those who (over) romanticize their purchases, those who feel the need to "run down" every gun that doesn't fit their ideal, and them that parrot cliches like "it's no Purdey", "a 'proper' gun must have two triggers", "shame they ______". It's all old hat for me cool

As to j0e's comments, I take them with a light heart, as they can spark an amusing discussion about complacency with what's believed to be "state of the art" v. those who strived to innovate. I suppose which camp I'm in is obvious.

As an opening shot, I'd much rather own this Woodward 450/400 "failure" than any rifle containing a Scott spindle.

photo poached from Roscoe Stephenson's site




Posted By: L. Brown Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 01:15 PM
Re guns sleeved by Merrington . . . I don't think there's much question that he does good work. But he also does not stamp them "sleeved". Good work + not marked sleeved can = potential deception down the line, when the current owner parts company with the gun. If a gun is sleeved, especially "invisibly" so, it ought to be marked sleeved. As required by the proof laws in the UK.
Posted By: Buzz Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 01:26 PM
I couldn't agree with Larry's sentiment on this issue more.
Posted By: ed good Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 02:39 PM
generally, when a skilled workman is proud of his work the puts his name on it...but of course, that was before lawyers took over the world...
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 07:04 PM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Re guns sleeved by Merrington . . . I don't think there's much question that he does good work. But he also does not stamp them "sleeved". Good work + not marked sleeved can = potential deception down the line, when the current owner parts company with the gun. If a gun is sleeved, especially "invisibly" so, it ought to be marked sleeved. As required by the proof laws in the UK.


Originally Posted By: buzz
I couldn't agree with Larry's sentiment on this issue more.


If that's the case, y'all should take up a collection and send me and my guns to the London proof house, I'll take pictures. LVI, Philly, and Newark are the most convenient airfields for me.

Thanks!
Posted By: Mark Larson Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 08:00 PM
Interesting discussion. Can a damascus gun be sleeved with damascus barrel(s) from another gun, assuming they are the same diameter?
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 08:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Mark Larson
Interesting discussion. Can a damascus gun be sleeved with damascus barrel(s) from another gun, assuming they are the same diameter?


I suppose it could be done but a) I doubt the patterns would match b) I bet the weld would be very obvious.
Posted By: PeteM Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 10:14 PM
The answer is yes they can. I believe that Greener was offering such a service a couple of years back. They had come into a number of damascus barrels made back in the "golden era" of damascus.

Pete
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/07/11 11:37 PM
Well, I am going to see if it can be done. The patterns will be different, but I know I will like the result.
Mike
Posted By: mc Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/08/11 12:18 AM
Greener was making new guns with old Damascus tubes not sleeving them.i would like to sleeve a Damascus gun to see what it looked like. mc
Posted By: justin Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/08/11 01:13 PM
I think the browning matching would be problematic
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/08/11 01:48 PM
Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Re guns sleeved by Merrington . . . I don't think there's much question that he does good work. But he also does not stamp them "sleeved". Good work + not marked sleeved can = potential deception down the line, when the current owner parts company with the gun. If a gun is sleeved, especially "invisibly" so, it ought to be marked sleeved. As required by the proof laws in the UK.


Originally Posted By: buzz
I couldn't agree with Larry's sentiment on this issue more.


If that's the case, y'all should take up a collection and send me and my guns to the London proof house, I'll take pictures. LVI, Philly, and Newark are the most convenient airfields for me.

Thanks!


Not quite sure how that pertains to the question at hand, Ben. If an American gunsmith sleeves a gun, why shouldn't he then mark it "sleeved"--since that's the standard in the country where the practice was invented, and since it will lessen the possibility of fraud, when the gun is sold at some later date?
Posted By: Ben Thayer Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/09/11 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Originally Posted By: Ben Thayer
Originally Posted By: L. Brown
Re guns sleeved by Merrington . . . I don't think there's much question that he does good work. But he also does not stamp them "sleeved". Good work + not marked sleeved can = potential deception down the line, when the current owner parts company with the gun. If a gun is sleeved, especially "invisibly" so, it ought to be marked sleeved. As required by the proof laws in the UK.


Originally Posted By: buzz
I couldn't agree with Larry's sentiment on this issue more.


If that's the case, y'all should take up a collection and send me and my guns to the London proof house, I'll take pictures. LVI, Philly, and Newark are the most convenient airfields for me.

Thanks!


Not quite sure how that pertains to the question at hand, Ben. If an American gunsmith sleeves a gun, why shouldn't he then mark it "sleeved"--since that's the standard in the country where the practice was invented, and since it will lessen the possibility of fraud, when the gun is sold at some later date?


Between this and the proof house thread you sound like a jilted lover or remorseful buyer laugh

Different steels polish and rust differently, while the joint may be indiscernible, in good light, the different steels are. To make a sleeved gun truly fraud-able requires an additional step or two wink My humble sidelock would hardly be worth the effort being it has the dreaded single trigger that only functions perfectly when I hand it to someone. The damascus flats are a dead giveaway on the old gun.

Sleeving my guns made them safer, not less so. If you are inferring that by not stamping the barrels that I am attempting to deceive someone, I take exception to your remarks and demand fisticuffs or axe handles (your choice) as means of satisfaction, as my reputation is surely less tarnished than yours.

Should I ever decide to submit the guns for re-proof I'll be glad to have the flats stamped SLEEVED Until then, the guns are in America, and owned by an honest, law abiding American. I feel no compulsion to submit to any Crown or Company of Gunmakers. We fought a war to end that crap over 200 years ago.


Jim
Posted By: L. Brown Re: Sleeving Question - Who - 12/09/11 03:44 PM
Not jilted or remorseful at all. I've owned two sleevers, both Brit, and both PROPERLY MARKED as sleeved. Falls in the same category as any other significant modification to the gun. You lengthen chambers, then stamp the @#$%^% gun that it's now 2 3/4" vs 2 1/2", or 3" vs 2 3/4". Why are people afraid to tell the truth? Shotguns, if properly cared for, will outlive their current owners. Somewhere down the line, the next owner may be less scrupulous, or the next buyer less knowledgeable and less likely to spot a sleeved gun. You're mixing two threads here, but no need to submit it to anyone under our current system in this country. Appropriately marking whatever modification was made means that there's no misunderstanding about what's been done to the gun.
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