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Posted By: James M ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 07:36 PM
I recently acquired a nice little Spanish 20 ga with double triggers and 28 inch barrels. The gun is marked ARMAS ERBI. S.C. on the frame and additionaly marked Elgoibar and Model "English" on the barrels. Anyone have any information on this maker?
Jim
Posted By: Replacement Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 08:26 PM
Barrels are probably 27-5/8"? I have an Erbi boxlock 28ga with DT, PG, splinter, metric 28" M/F bbls, coin finish frame with some decent engraving, pretty plain wood, but nicely fitted. Gun originally had sling swivels, so probably for the Euro market. Can only guess what the "English" on yours designates. Mine's a decent little gun, close to quality of current AyA 4/53 but not quite that good. Erbi went out of business during the Diarms fiasco of the 80's (check my dates). Weiland has very brief mention of Erbi in "Spanish Best."
Posted By: PA24 Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 09:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Replacement
Can only guess what the "English" on yours designates.


Probably straight stock with no swivels........?.......
Posted By: James M Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 09:44 PM
Replacement is correct 27 5/8" barrels. Pistol grip stock W/O swivels and a beavertail forend. Boxlock with some nice restrained engraving with good case coloring to the action. I'll post pictures when I get a chance. I agree it's a decent gun.
Jim
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 10:04 PM
Originally Posted By: Replacement
Erbi went out of business during the Diarms fiasco of the 80's (check my dates). Weiland has very brief mention of Erbi in "Spanish Best."


Back in September I started a thread on my Spanish double. Someone on that thread mentioned "The Diarms Fiasco". The only information I can find on it is that Francisco Sarriugarte, the maker of my shotgun, was in this too. Can someone tell me what this Fiasco was/is? Is it some dark secret?
Posted By: ChiefShotguns Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 10:13 PM
"Can someone tell me what this Fiasco was/is? Is it some dark secret?"

No secret at all. The best accounting you are likely to run across is in Terry Weiland's fine book "Spanish Best." It's a very good read about the Spanish gun making industry, listing many of the better known and a number of the lessor known makers and their histories.
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 10:35 PM
Thanks for the lead Chief. I checked to see if it is for sale here and I can't find a listing. I'll check Barnes and Noble maybe they can get one for me. smile
Posted By: ChiefShotguns Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 11:08 PM
I think the book may be out of print, although it's not all that old. If you can't find one, I have a very nice copy of the first edition of the book that I could be pursuaded to part with. Drop me a PM if interested.
Posted By: Replacement Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 11:28 PM
If you like double guns, you absolutely need a copy of "Spanish Best."

My copy is about 100 miles from here, but as I recall the story, the majority of the Basque gunmakers formed a consortium to achieve some economies of scale and to increase their market presence. A few companies stayed out of the consortium (AyA?), but when the Diarms consortium failed miserably, most of the very small makers just disappeared. That is why there are so many "modern" Spanish guns whose makers are no longer around. A small number of companies came out of Diarms and survive to this day.
Posted By: gjw Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 11/30/11 11:49 PM
Hi all, real down and dirty, Replacement is pretty close to the mark. DIAM was really started by the Spanish Gov't and the purpose was to get all the gun makers (big and small) under one company. Several opted out (Ugartechea, Arrieta, Grulla/Union Armera to name a few) AyA did join DIARM. The venture was financed by the Gov't and bought quite a bit of high tech equipment, gone was the hand crafted guns that made Eiber famous and in fact the Factory was not even in Eiber. Over 20 makers joined, but the experiment didn't last but a couple years. Almost all those who joined never came back. The exception was AyA. They reorganized and made it.

Guns were still marked AyA and even Sarriugarte, but the boxes the guns were shipped in were marked DIARM.

One of the failings of the company was too many chiefs. Everyone wanted to be someone. In fact F. Sarriugarte was the Chairman.

The full story is found in Weiland's book, an excellent read all the way around.

All the best!

Greg
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 12:27 AM
From the small snippets of info I've gleaned outside of this forum F. Sarruarte's son/sons were connected somehow to Keman(sp?). All I know is that I did get a well made gun and I have to get the book. PM sent Chief. Sorry to hijack your thread Jim. J.R.B. jerb
Posted By: Mike Bonner Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 12:48 AM
Kemen is a Spanish company, is it not?
Mike
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By: Mike Bonner
Kemen is a Spanish company, is it not?
Mike


I did a search on it about an hour ago. Most of what I turned up is crap not even related to guns. I did find one that listed Kemen ammunition. I'll keep digging until Cheif PM's me back on the particulars for his book.
Posted By: gjw Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 12:57 AM
Hi, Kemen is a Spanish firm that was started by F. Sarriugarte's sons. They are most famous for their O/U's. They are very well regarded in Europe. Top Notch!

All the best!

Greg
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 01:04 AM
Greg--You wouldn't have a link to a site for Kemen would you? I have a collection of old Stoeger Bibles and the 1988 Stoeger still lists Diarm shotguns. I vaguely remember seeing the name Kemen in one of the later books but I can't find it now.
Posted By: James M Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 01:46 AM
Hey guys: I love and appreciate you all!! Could we possibly get back on the discussion of the subject gun that started this thread?? grin
Jim
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 02:18 AM
Getting back to Jim--Did you check that link on my Spanish double thread? I think Patriot USA submitted it to me. That's where I found out a lot of info on my double.
Posted By: gjw Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 02:35 AM
Hi Jim and sorry, you are right, guess sometimes we get carried away on a subject.

All the best!

Greg
Posted By: 2holer Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 04:07 AM
This is an Erbi England model

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=262948723
Posted By: Replacement Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 05:16 AM


Engraving and PG shape are completely different from my 28ga Erbi.

FWIW, that seller also lists a Miroku/Daly 500 in 20ga with 28" barrels, starting at $475. That looks like a good deal. If I didn't already have a Miroku 500 20ga, I'd be bidding.
Posted By: James M Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 05:35 AM
I was going to post pictures but this gun is like the one I own.
Jim
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 01:43 PM
Jim--It appears that your gun has the same graceful stock as mine. When I put it to my shoulder it seems odd not grabbing something like an old wooden fence post. Mine is chambered for 3" 12. I haven't shot 3" in it because of the slim grip as I don't want it to crack. I also wonder if the internals on these Spanish guns are similar or even the same between brands in case one should need parts.
Posted By: James M Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 03:49 PM
JRB:
The screws on mine are untouched apparently since to gun was built so I've never inspected the internals. It comes up "lively" which is the best term I can think of to describe it as the gun is well balanced.
It does has one horrid cosmetic feature: THE SPESCO CORP. ATLANTA,GEORGA(The importer) is stamped in large letters on the bottom of the frame.
Curiously enough it came in a Winchester 23 case which it fits perfectly.
Jim
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 04:19 PM
Lively is exactly the way I would describe my F.S. Mine has one horrid feature too. On the left barrel next to Eibar is stamped Eig. Well, I did some research on Eig and I find out it is the name of my guns importer--Saul Eig. Maybe Tony's fancy welding technique would cover our blemishes.

Mine fits a Weatherby case perfectly. I don't know which model of Weatherby was intended for this case but the Weatherby name is either coming off or covered over with a silk screen.

My shotgun weighs exactly 6 pounds 15 ounces. I think a little light for a 3" mag 12. It's fun enough though with 2 3/4 shells.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 09:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Mike Bonner
Kemen is a Spanish company, is it not?
Mike


Yes sir, it is:

http://www.kemenarmas.es/
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 09:14 PM
Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
I also wonder if the internals on these Spanish guns are similar or even the same between brands in case one should need parts.


That's a perceptive question.

When it comes to Spanish shotguns we are generally looking at hand built guns, and each gun is composed of parts that are hand fitted. Attempting to swap parts between guns can be a nightmare; even between guns made by the same maker in the same month of the same year.

Hand built guns are a delight, until something breaks. Then it's big bucks having a good gunsmith make and fit a replacement part. Here's an one-point story.

I bought a used Zabala Hermanos SLE from CAI, and found the firing pins and rusted to the bushings. I sent an e-mail to ZH, pleading for bushings and pins for my gunsmith to use to fix the gun. I included the gun SN and a description in my e-mail. Two weeks later I received a dozen or so different style bushing blanks and about as many different styles of firing pins. My gunsmith made it work, and I'm still shooting the gun – purely due to the kindness of ZH.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 09:31 PM
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Hey guys: I love and appreciate you all!! Could we possibly get back on the discussion of the subject gun that started this thread?? grin
Jim


Easily done :-)

Armas ERBI, like most Spanish shotgun makers, produced shotguns to any price point for which they had an order. We typically see only lower price point box lock guns here in the US, imported in the pre-DIARM days by gun shops, hardware stores, and the like. High price point ERBI guns exist, but are mostly only seen in Spain.

Many of the very finely made DIARM model 'Derby' SLE guns marked ' Sarriugarte' on the top of the barrels are composed of parts made by ERBI (as can be seen by ERBI's maker mark on the water table and barrel flats) and given to DIARM when ERBI joined DIARM.

I've seen a lot of plain Jane ERBI shotguns, but I've never seen a poorly made ERBI shotgun. Some of their guns handle so well it's almost like the gun wants to go hunting all by itself :-)

You have yourself a very fine shotgun.
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 09:39 PM
Originally Posted By: Kyrie
Some of their guns handle so well it's almost like the gun wants to go hunting all by itself :-)


On clay targets I think of it more like a "magic wand". grin
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 10:29 PM
There is a potential problem I should mention; Spanish Steel Disease (SSD). It goes like this.

First we buy a little Spanish 20 gauge box lock because it pretty and can be had for under $400. Then we discover how well the damn thing handles, see another, similar Spanish box lock in 12 gauge, also for under $400, and buy it. Now we're having so much fun we decide to see if we can find a Spanish 16 gauge box lock.

Next step is when we discover a Spanish side lock for under a grand. And snap it up. Pretty soon we have a full safe, and are looking at guns like this:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=263174611

That's SSD – the inability to stop buying Spanish shotguns.
Posted By: tudurgs Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/01/11 11:05 PM
I'm sure this topic has been discussed As Nauseum, but here goes - I have always heard that there was a period in Spanish mass markiet gun making that suffered from poorly heat treated parts and resulting soft components. If true, when did that occur?
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 01:40 AM
Originally Posted By: tudurgs
I'm sure this topic has been discussed As Nauseum, but here goes - I have always heard that there was a period in Spanish mass markiet gun making that suffered from poorly heat treated parts and resulting soft components. If true, when did that occur?


Yes sir, that's a subject that has been done to death. It's also a subject on which there is more myth than substance, because it's complicated. Nothing about the Spanish shotgun 'industry' is anything other than complicated. I'll give this a shot.

Firstly, there is no such thing as a Spanish shotgun industry, nor is there anything like a mass marketing of Spanish shotguns. With some isolated exceptions, all Spanish shotgun makers are small businesses, with only a few employees (AyA has at present fewer has twenty employees and a visit to their shop will only find 10 or so working at any time) and some are/have been single man shops. Again with isolated exceptions, no Spanish shotgun maker actually makes all the parts that go into the shotguns he assembles.

Rather the structure of the shotgun business in Eibar is almost exactly like the shotgun business was in London, in the late 1800s. At present there are, to the best of my knowledge, only two makers of shotgun barrels in Spain. All of the shotgun makers buy their barrels from these two barrel makers. There are perhaps less than 3 or casters of locks, frames and other items that require forgings and these are individual artisans. Most engraving is done by local artisan contractors. There is only a handful, maybe less than 10, engravers in actual employ by the makers. In short, we have small independent business dependent upon a few parts suppliers and essentially all assembling guns to different styles from the same set of parts.

Spanish shotgun makers are shotgun assemblers; they hand fit parts obtained from an informal network of parts and assembly makers into shotguns, and stamp their names on the resulting guns as the 'manufacturer'.

Historically, when one of these makers received an order for fifty or a hundred guns from a US reseller (hardware stores, importer/resellers, etc) there was the potential that the maker would have a hard time meeting delivery deadlines. Many of these Spanish makers didn't produce fifty guns a year, total, and their suppliers of parts/assemblies couldn't supply the parts/assemblies to make more guns than that. What sometimes happened is the US buyer would push the maker to meet delivery deadlines, and the maker would push his supplier to make and deliver more parts/assemblies. In some cases the parts supplier could only increase the number of parts delivered by reducing the time it took to make a part or assembly. Sometimes the first corner that was cut was heat treatment on some of the parts delivered or more commonly, younger, inexperienced people were hired to do the job and the hardening just wasn’t done correctly as would have been the case with an employee with years and years of experience.

So we have cases where some soft parts/assemblies are delivered to and used by the maker to make shotguns. Shotguns are delivered to the US buyer and sold to US customers. Of the customers who got guns with one or more parts not heat treated, problems begin to develop in a month, or a year, in ten years, depending on the part and the amount and type of use.

The level of complexity in the parts makers/gun makers relationship is difficult to convey, especially to a US audience accustomed to thinking in industrialized terms. The Spanish shotgun makers are not industrialized; they are small shops who largely work without even power tools, at a blacksmith level of technology. They are artisans, not industrial workers.

All that said, the 'isolated exceptions' need a few words. There have been companies who attempted and largely succeeded in actually making all the parts they used to make shotguns. Victor Sarasqueta was one of these, as was (arguably) the AyA that existed before DIARM (the post DIARM AyA is a small shop). There was a time, before DIARM, when AyA made enough parts to have parts surplus to the needs of AyA, and sold these parts to anyone who could pay for them (AyA essentially acted as a parts supplier as well as a maker). The present day AyA would, I think, like to return to those days. Whether or not they will succeed is unclear.
Posted By: James M Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 02:06 AM
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim
Posted By: Doverham Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 02:18 AM
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


+1. Nicely done, Kyrie
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 02:23 AM
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


I agree Jim, this is one of the most informative posts I've read. Kyrie--If either Jim or I would break a mainspring for example. Being each Spanish artisan makes his own individual part, could one get a generic Spanish mainspring and hand fit it for our gun?
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 06:52 PM
Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
Originally Posted By: italiansxs
Thank you Kyrie:
This is one of the most comprehensive descriptions I've ever read of the inner workings of the Spanish shotgun imdustry. I hope you will continue to expand upon the above.
Jim


I agree Jim, this is one of the most informative posts I've read. Kyrie--If either Jim or I would break a mainspring for example. Being each Spanish artisan makes his own individual part, could one get a generic Spanish mainspring and hand fit it for our gun?


Thank you, gentlemen – kind words always gratefully accepted :-)

In terms of a generic main spring, I think you have answered yourself with the phrase "each Spanish artisan makes his own". Remember my story about asking for firing pin and bushing blanks to fix a gun, and getting a dozen or so different kinds of bushings.

It isn't that there are no generic main springs; rather it's that there are a number of different generic main springs and you would need the right generic spring for your specific lock. Once you had a generic spring that could be fitted, then there is the problem of fitting the spring. This isn't just "stone it until it can be slipped in place." The spring has to be tuned to the lock so it provides enough force for reliable primer ignition, but not so much force that it starts beating up the firing pin.

I've recently bought some guns from a gun shop in Barcelona, and had them sent to Diego Godoy (master gun maker, and owner of Choy Armas). He will restock them and make me up a spare set of firing pins and main springs. The only spare parts we ever have for a Spanish side lock are the parts we had made for it when we bought it.

In re-reading what I wrote, I've painted a bleaker picture that really exists. If you should ever break a main spring it isn't hopeless. But it does mean sending the gun to some place like New England Custom Gun to have them make and fit the part. Not hopeless, just potentially expensive.

Gentlemen, if this is the kind of Spanish shotgun discussion you enjoy, you should consider joining us over on the Spanish Shotgun Forum; just follow the link in my signature. This kind of discussion is why that forum was created :-)
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 08:50 PM
Kyrie--As for fitting a mainspring I'm not afraid of that. I fit the mainspring for my Remington 1900. My only fear is getting a part that I can make fit. Until one breaks I'm going to enjoy shooting my Spanish magic wand and I'm sure Jim will too.
Posted By: Kyrie Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/02/11 09:28 PM
Originally Posted By: J.R.B.
Kyrie--As for fitting a mainspring I'm not afraid of that. I fit the mainspring for my Remington 1900. My only fear is getting a part that I can make fit. Until one breaks I'm going to enjoy shooting my Spanish magic wand and I'm sure Jim will too.


That being the case, if you should ever have the need get a copy of the Dixie Gun Works catalog and see how close you can come to the spring you need. Could just work :-)
Posted By: James M Re: ARMAS ERBI. S.C. - 12/03/11 01:59 AM
I have thoroughly enjoyed this thead and while Spanish guns aren't my main interest I certainly intend to log on to the Spanish Gun forum periodically.
Jim
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