What kinds/brands of ammo were available before the first World War for 16g shotguns?

Was this ammo in boxes?

I have an 1898 16g L.C. Smith 2E and I would like to find some period shells for it.

Thanks

OWD

That is a very early 16 ga. The bores would be .650, unless honed out, and the chambers would be 2 9/16". As for shells then, I'm sure if Researcher reads this he can tell you.

Certainly Eley, Kynoch and Joyce in Britain were making them then as I have several examples in my collection. Lagopus.....

Lots of links here to powder and shell advertisements
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dfg2hmx7_332g4c6sphw

1895 American Made Shotgun Shells Reviewed
April 13, 1895 Sporting Life
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1895/VOL_25_NO_03/SL2503014.pdf

c. 1902 Peters

Cool. Thanks. So the search begins.

I'm guessing that a full box of pre-WW1 ammo is going to cost me more than the gun.

OWD

BTW: The gun is probably one of the first 16 gauges Smith made. The 28" damascus bbls are un-messed with and in great shape.

Ya betcha

W.R.A. Co., REM-UMC, Western, and Peters. Smaller outfits, like Robin Hood are out there. Decent, full boxes from the era you mention will be spendy.
Gun Broker is a great place to find them. Use their 'search' devices, save those searches, and check frequently. You can broaden your searches by using different forms of 16 gauge, such as: 16GA, 16 Gauge, 16 GA, etc. Sellers do not use standardized nomenclature when listing their goods. Sometimes a box shows up, and nobody bids on it. Other times, the bidding gets fierce.
Good luck. Cheers!

Here is a 1911-1916 box with nice labels. Unfortunately, and this is common, the 25 rounds are a mixture from other boxes. You can tell by the dished and flat bases on the brass.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=260406840

OWD, in retrospect (as usual!) I wish I had kept my 1923 Ideal with 28" and 32" barrels. The 32" barrels were marked for 3 inch chambers. Both sets, F and F.

I have a 12 gauge grade 1 extractor- early style- with the pins and the rotating disc in the barrel lug- 30" Twist barrels DT- I shoot RST 2.5" 7/8 oz. shells in it all day long- You are 100% right- you'll pay through the nose for older shorter paper hulls- and as I have 'gone that route' years ago- I found about 50% of those I bought would NOT fire- the firing pin dented the primers fine- but- NO Bang- No Boom--

Parker Bros. began offering 16-gauge guns around 1878 or 79. Remington Arms Co. didn't add 16-gauge doubles to their offerings until 1897, though a handful of earlier E.Remington & Sons 16-gauge doubles have been reported. It appears that Hunter Arms Co. added 16-gauge guns to their L.C. Smith offerings in 1898.

My earliest ammunition catalogue is a 1903 Union Metallic Cartridge Co. From that vintage on into the 1930s, the North American "standard" 16-gauge paper shell was put up in a 2 9/16 inch case. Longer 16-gauge shells, with more and better wadding, were offered in 2 3/4, 2 7/8 and 3-inch lengths.

A good place to score a box of pre-WW-I 16-gauge shells may be the currant Wards Auction --

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewcat.php?category=1

A nice box of period shells is a great "collector's" item to have with a gun, but I wouldn't have much faith at this late date that any even pre WW-II primers will go.

I have a box of 25 16ga Winchester Repeater Paper Shot Shells loaded with Smokeless Powder. Load is 2½ Drams DuPont with 1oz #7½ Ch shot. As it says Drams & not Drams Equivelent I take this to be the DuPont Bulk Smokless shotshell powder. The paper hulls are pale yellow in color & while no length is given on the box measuring the loaded length would appear to be correct for the 2 9/16" shell. All 25 have the same head stamps, but the top wads of a few of them show #8 shot. One shell has a deeper yellow paper than the other 24. Obviously these did not all come from one box but they do all seem to be of same vintage with the possible exception of that one shell with different color. Primers, including the odd colored one are marked WRA Co New No4. Box is the same style as the Rem box linked by Roundsworth above.

FWIW, the 1895 review of shotgun shells linked above notes that the winner of the LC Smith Cup in Illinois that year, used Peters shells.

Dave: The L.C. Smith Trophy was awarded to State Pigeon (later Inanimate and Amateur) Champions starting about 1895

Earliest 16 Gauge
Serial Number 2126 (April 25, 1896), No. 5E submitted by Stan Middleton.

From our LC Smith Collectors Assoc site...

CB

My thought in noting it, was that since this gun is an Elsie of about that vintage, it would be resonant to get a box of Peters shells.

It's a very nice trophy, too.

Get some all brass shells. They are period correct, look great, work great and are great conversation starters. Magtech, Alcan and others are avaialble.

You can even shoot them as oposed to just looking at the "vintage" stuff.

The "vintage" stuff can be shot, too. I do so occasionally, for grins, in my vintage doubles.

I have gotten a reputation in this area for wanting old paper shells. People bring them to me often. One friend that works in a builders' supply brought me 11 boxes of vintage 16 ga. shells that a widowed customer brought in and gave them just to "get rid of, since her husband died". Many of them will be shot in my Susie.



SRH

I've shot a lot of WWII era stuff, the pre WWI stuff gets iffy. The paper often is the part that starts to swell and the shot sometimes has fused together.

I believe Mike Campbell contacted Tom Armbrust about pressure testing pre-WWII loads in the early days of the 16g Society. He'd already done so and the results were quite inconsistent. Occasionally, possibly related to hardening of the wad or paper hull, the pressure was increased. He felt that the primers failed before the powder. I would certainly check the bore after each shot.

I agree with Drew. My safety and/or the damaging of a fine shotgun is not worth it. Using Polywads or RSTs in an antique, in no way, diminishes my enjoyment. I believe we are all doing a commendable job researching, maintaining, and enjoying our shotguns. They will certainly be here for the next generation. The vintage ammunition won't be. I guess I am looking at this from a dedicated collector's view. Why shoot, or attempt to shoot, collectible ammunition. To me, that is akin to licking the adhesive on 70 year old, unused postage stamps to mail in my dues to the AARP.

Yeah or shooting the old Chinese firecrackers like I collect without at least saving the artistic labels.

I never said I shoot collectible ammo. Vintage and collectible is not necessarily the same thing. There are some brands and loads of vintage paper shells that won't bring any more than new loads on the auctions. A lot of full boxes sell for less than a new box of premium ammo. I shoot those. I collect, and save, the rare and unusual ones, mostly full boxes.

SRH

You are right. I see your point. Glad to hear that you are also a collector. Cheers!

I've heard that BP increases in strength with age. This may be a myth.

Genelang,

A friend, who is a WBTS artifact collector and M/L rifle shooter, found an unexploded cannonball years ago. He opened it and salvaged the powder contained therein. It was several feet deep so should have been kept cool. It was greyish in color. He loaded a flintlock with it and fired it, but it seemed weak. Doesn't prove anything, but interesting nonetheless.

SRH

I have shot black powder loads from the 30's that worked just fine, I shot some CANUCK's in my W&C Scott 10 gauge, then saw them for $20.00 each on gunsamerica so I saved the rest.

This collector was killed in 2008 by a Civil War round that exploded while he tried to restore it:
http://www.military.com/news/article/civil-war-cannonball-kills-collector.html