Posting this for Marc. I will leave the explanations to him.











Pete

From Sébastien Trabelsi, shop manager from Lebeau Courally.





Pete

Pete, like this gun, I have seen others marked only Lebeau, with no Courally . What is the significance of the single name ?

Daryl,

This is directly from Littlegun
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/artisans%20identifies%20l/a%20lebeau%20gb.htm

In 1865, Auguste Lebeau, known as one of the best arms manufacturers of the Area of Argenteau (large suburbs of Liege) opens its own factory of shotguns of highest quality.

In 1896, death of Auguste Lebeau, Ferdinand Courally ensures continuity, he will be the author in 1931 of very known "the Weapons of Hunting and their Shooting".

In 1902, the firm takes the name of "Webley-Lebeau-Courally".

In 1919, Ferdinand Courally is withdrawn, the firm becomes a limited company ` SA Continental Auguste Lebeau-Courally "under the direction of English Philippe Reeve. About 1930 departure of the Rue Mosselman, 51-53 for the Rue Fond des Tawes, 17-21 (close to the bench of tests) At the beginning of Ph. Reeve, in 1956, the Lebeau-Courally house is repurchased by Joseph Verrees *, already manufacturer of weapons in Liege.

In 1982, with died of Joseph Verrees, his niece Anne-Marie Moermans-Ramakers, the direction begins again. She always currently assumes the perpetuation of the great tradition armurière inhabitant of Liège, in the field of the weapons of hunting of great luxury.

SA VERREES & Co - LEBEAU-COURALLY - Rue Saint-Gilles, 386, B-4000 Liege

* Joseph Verrees, bank clerk of 1930 to 1945, opens under his name his own manufacture in 1945. In 1949, it joins another manufacturer: Oste and they create the firm "Verrees and Oste", specialized in the construction of fine weapons.

In 1952, end of association with Oste, the firm becomes "fine Munitions factory Verrees & Co".

In 1954, transfer of the Company of the n° 99 to the n° 386 of the street Saint-Gilles.

In 1956, repurchase of "Lebeau-Courally".

So based on the above history. A gun marked only as Lebeau would have been made prior to 1897.
Over the years, the firm held several patents in Belgium and perhaps in England.

Pete

I am reading on the Factory Records above that the gun may be dated 1926. I also see only the name Lebeau on the pictures provided. Other Lebeau guns seem not to be the style of an early 1890s gun. I'm puzzled by this and wonder if it had to do with the withdrawal of Courally in 1919.

Any ideas on the "Acier Comprime De Wahlreyne" stamp on this Aug. Lebeau Courally Liege?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There maybe a ploughshare stamped somewhere on that gun.

"Compressed steel of Wahlreyne" is the continental trade mark for the manufacture of weapons fire by Webley-Lebeau-Courally.

Pete

Thanks Peter & I can get that far in the translation but what is Wahlreyne?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Peter:

Good eye on the export. The reason I stumbled upon it was what was on the toplever: R. Ziegler of Varsovie(probably not the elder Robert as he expired in 1875 but his son rusznikar Adolf Robert Xawery). Thanks to Piotr I have info on many of the Polish makers if anyone is interested.



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

All right, what about a L in a bullet:



Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

What's the term: Marque CRICINE?( Marque Origine )

And one more being a Aug. Lebeau A Liege.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I think it's a poorly stamped 'Marque (d')Origine'

As far as I can tell, Wahlreyne was the name if a steel.

The "Marque Origine" was part of the same trade mark. This was registered in Belgium Nov 12, 1896 by Fredinand Courally.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Sl0MAAA...yne&f=false

Pete

Thanks for the effort fellas. So I guess there were at least 3 Acier Comprime trademarks:

Acier Comprime Cap w/ Chicken Hawk head - Joseph Cap

Acier Comprime de Wahlreyne - Ferdinand Courally & Webley, Lebeau - Courally

Acier Comprime de Wahlreyne Rust Proof( probably on the order of Polid's Antikorro) May 6th 1913 - Webley, Lebeau - Courally.

Acier Leugrann & Metal Vant Horn - Webley - Lebeau - Courally 17 Rue Fond des Tawes, Liege

http://mallorquina.pagesperso-orange.fr/source/recherchedesmarques.htm

http://mallorquina.pagesperso-orange.fr/source/pageS.htm

I guess it to be some alloy & possibly some alloy with a nickel or tin component.

I wonder who was rolling it for them? J. Novotny also had similar type steel trademarks/stamps.


J. Nowotny's Special steel


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Like I said chasing ruszniarz Robert Ziegler of Warszawie/Warszawa, Trebacka 4, the waffenhändler is the reason I've headed down the Lebeau-Courally trail(Mr. Highsmith has a high regard for them).




DOSTAWCA(Supplier)
CESARSKIEGO TOW.(TOWARZYSTWO) RACYONALNEGO POLOWANIA

& I assume the above to be the Polish equivalent of Court Supplier or k.k.


Odznaczony 5-ma pierwszorzednemi medalami
na ostatnich krajowych wystawach
poleca najwiekszy wybór prawdziwie dobrych mysliwskich
broni najnowszych systemów po cenach znacznie znizonych


Wylaczna sprzedaz broni z lufami
John Cockerill

Advert notes that either he uses Cockerill steel exclusively or is the exclusive outlet for Cockerill steel tubes.

w Warsazawie, Trebacka 4.

Cenniki ilustrowane wyselaja sie na zadanie

Adolf Robert Xawery Ziegler was a top supplier and sourced Aug. Lebeau - Courally. He was born in Warsaw in 1853 and by 1880 he may have married the daughter of Rogatce Mokotowska as info suggests he took over his shop. But a Robert Ziegler, more than likely his father, was born in 1805 and passed this life in 1875. So Adolf Robert Xawery Ziegler had a foundation with which to begin.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Whenever I read a translation like that, I wonder if it's one of the computer translation deals, or just someone whose English is a bit shaky.

Robert Ziegler & Czeslaw Lisowski were at the very least crossing sourcing if not best of friends or related. Czeslaw Lisowski was born in the mid to late 1870s(1876?) and died in 1938 in Warsaw. Some time after WWI he was co-owner of J. Sosnowski, which was founded by Jan Jakub Sosnowski, mistrz rusznikarski - master gunsmith & possibly head of the guild at some point, was born in 1827 in Swisloczu and died in Warsaw in 1905. He partnered with Jan Jachimek(circa 1818 in Prague to 1883 Warsaw) under the shingle Jachimek & Sosnowski. Jan Jachimek had been a partner in Koczi & Jachimek with Antoni Koczi(Kotzi). Getting back to J. Sosnowski, he had a son named Bronislaw Sosnowski who was born in 1863 in Warsaw and died in 1942.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post195663

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Larry,

I know it is bad. It is on the English part of Alain's site. I know his English is better than that. But with so much to translate, it was most likely a computer. By the way some of the French is not that great either, I guess he never corrects it in any language. Having said that, he offers alot of info not available anywhere else.

He recently cut back the site to Belgian makers only. If it ever disappears completely, I have the entire site archived so we don't lose all the knowledge.

Pete

I'm still perplexed by the Wahlreyne term in the steel type but I guess taking it on face value it refers to a recipe(s) more than anything. Also in 1902 with Webley's name added in Webley-Lebeau-Courally, I wonder what stake Webley had and if they were heavily sourcing the mechanics in Liege?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Very good that you've saved it, Pete! It's a valuable resource. And it's at least good that someone who knows guns is handling it. Knowing a language doesn't mean that you know gun terminology. When I first encountered the term "les ailes" in reference to a side by side, I thought to myself: "A gun with wings?" And I even saw English translations using the term "wings". Which meant that the translator didn't know, any more than I did, that in the case of a gun it means sideclips--but it probably meant he didn't know guns, or at least didn't know gun terminology in English, and was simply translating literally. Hell, sometimes going British English to American English with gun terms can be a problem.

I keep thinking it is a marketing term based on word like wählen.

Pete

Larry,

It can get worse. I just picked up an Italian version of a Belgian catalog circa 1924. I can read gun Italian, but some of the terms in this thing leave me laughing. They did a transliteration.

Pete

I don't know Polish, but from the resemblance to other Slavic languages can gather that this

DOSTAWCA(Supplier)
CESARSKIEGO TOW.(TOWARZYSTWO) RACYONALNEGO POLOWANIA

Stands for "Supplier to the Royal Society for Rational Hunting" *

Odznaczony 5-ma pierwszorzednemi medalami
na ostatnich krajowych wystawach

Likely it means the maker was 5-times medalist at various excibitions.

poleca najwiekszy wybór prawdziwie dobrych mysliwskich

Something like "the best choice for a true hunter", I guess

broni najnowszych systemów po cenach znacznie znizonych

Probably, "Guns of the newest systems"

Wylaczna sprzedaz broni z lufami
John Cockerill
I agree with " Advert notes that either he uses Cockerill steel exclusively or is the exclusive outlet for Cockerill steel tubes."

Cenniki ilustrowane wyselaja sie na zadanie

"Illustrated catalogue and price list is sent on request"

Hope that my attempt at "translation" is any good/help.

---
* - In Imperial Russia there was a society with a similar name, it promoted wildlife management, ethical hunting, game conservation and similar issues. Since Poland used to under Russian Empire, perhaps this organisation is meant. If so, it's pretty cool, for the Russian "Royal Society for Correct Hinting" was a very influental organisation, with quite a few of high-standing Romanovs taking active part in its actions. With Romanovs' well-know love of the Lebeau, there seems to be more than one associations. More likely, however, a Polish equivalent is meant.

WOW!.......if I read the ledger correctly that engraving cost 909.80 francs back then

Fantastic piece...thanks for sharing

Best

CJ

Would you consider the Lebeau-Courally the premier Belgium shotgun or are there others equal to or superior but lesser known?

I'd say they were one of a handful of the top retailers.

Thanks Humpty D. for the effort into the insight of the Hunting Society.

I believe that I have sorted the mark of the L in a bullet & it is the trademark for the L-C steel type Leugrann.





Acier Leugrann - Nr 805, November 12th, 1896 by Ferdinand Courally


Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Stumbled across the trademarks again:


Ferdinand Courally Acier Comprime de Wahlreyne 1896 trademark


Ferdinand Courally Acier Leugrann 1896 trademark

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

That is some of the best engraving I've seen lately. Absolutely love the setters! Would love to see some pics of the wood on that gun and see all the specifics. Thanks for sharing it.

Just a Retailer or builder of fine guns? If not, who built them?

Lebeau-Courally were makers of fine guns. Very fine guns.

Not a big deal for non-Francophiles, but just noticed that the accent on Liege in the first photo (left lock) is the wrong one. Can't see the writing on the right lock well enough to tell.

These were probably in the top five in terms of attention to detail that I have ever had the privilege to hold in my grubby mitts.



Aug. Lebeau Courally, S/N range 444xx. Numbered 1 & 2, consecutive numbers and in a WR case:)

Very very nice.

Any hints on why the phot does not come up?!

Whoops, got it.

Hi Pete,

Do you have Sebastien's number? I have something to ask him...
Best regards,
WC-

Hello gents,
The sites has been split in two, Belgian and others.
The non-Belgian site is:
www.littlegun.info
All is still there.

Best regards,
WC-

All the photos came from Marc. He may have the number.

Pete

Hi Larry,
The spelling is correct per wikipedia.
I've seen it engraved this way more often than not.
A local spelling idiosyncrasy I suppose.

Best regards,
WC-

According to that wiki article, the accent changed directions in 1946. The engraving on the gun would be correct prior to that, incorrect currently. My Petit Larousse (1965) shows the spelling with the accent grave rather than the accent aigu, which it has in the first photo.

Hi Larry,
I guess it's another way to date a Liege gun....

For advanced experts only...
WC-

True, WC . . . and you've got to look hard to spot which way the accent is slanting. I wasn't reading French (or anything else!) in 1946, so it was news to me that they changed accents on Liege. Very interesting.

I would be interested in talking to the owner of this gun if he is considering selling it. What a beauty!

WC, do you think that Lebeau's tubesets were serialized like Whitworth's?


Acier Leugrann - 38251.7211, #38251 and given text: "Fab-t des Cours Imples de Russie & d’Allemange"

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

1901 the following agent for England was given:

Monsieur H.V.Taelen, of 92, Beaufort Street, SW has been appointed English agent to the Belgian gunmaking firm of Ferd. Courally successors of August Lebeau

Wonder if Ferdinand Courally was sourcing the Jno. Hy. Andrew Toledo Steel bar stock thru Mr. H.V. Taelen??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Auguste Lebeau with Acier Comprime de Wahlreyne(some give a tin content?/)
38201.7165

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

I'm looking at an AUGUSTE LEBEAU-COURALLY 12g BLE, serial number 33673.Any idea what year of production might that be? Thanks. BTW my guess is pre-WWI.

With kind regards,
Jani

Seems like the barrels are a product of the below Belgian company:

http://www.ilrasoio.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=569S

Smeets Eugène Smeets Eugene


4 Rue Chéra 4 Rue Chéra
dépose la marque "Phoenix Arms" le 8 novembre 1914 avec Vanal Emile et Rosier Henri registrato il marchio "Phoenix Arms" 8 Nov 1914 Vanali e con Emile Henry Rose
Smess joseph Smess joseph 3 Rue du pommier Liège 3 Rue mela Liegi dépose le dessin d'un vapeur avec les initiales "GPC" dessous le 5 septembre 1911 file di disegno a vapore con le iniziali "GPC" sotto 5 Settembre 1911
Smits Smits vers 1845 signature "JH Jamar Smits" voir ce nom 1845 firmato "JH Smits Jamar" vedere questo nome
Soc. Soc. An. des établissements Breuer et C° Anno di istituzioni Breuer e Co.


Soc. Soc. An. Gustav Genschow et C° Anno Gustav Genschow e Co.


Soc. Soc. An. Marcel Donkier Marcel Anno Donkier
Soc. Soc. Continentale pour la fabrication d'armes a feu Webley-Lebeau-Courally Continental nella fabbricazione di armi da fuoco Webley-Lebeau-Courally 17 Rue Fond des Tawes Liège 17 Rue Fond des tawes Liegi

dépose les marques file marchi

"Acier Comprimé de Wahlreyne Rust Proof", "Acier Leugrann"; "Metal Vant horn", "Acier Comprimé de Wahlreyne" le 6 mai 1913 "Steel compressa Wahlreyne antiruggine", "Steel Leugrann" "Metal Vant" corno ", Steel tavoletta Wahlreyne" 6 maggio 1913

dépose la marque" The Standard Pigeon Gun" le 21 mars 1925 déjà déposé le 10 mars 1905 par courally registrato il marchio "The Standard Pigeon Gun" 21 Marzo 1925 precedentemente presentata da 10 mar 1905 Courally

Société anonyme pour la fabrication d'armes a feu Società anonima per la fabbricazione di armi da fuoco 99 Rue St Gilles Liège 99 Rue St Gilles Liegi dépose le dessin d'un aigle enserrant des éclair le 23 janvier 1904 file di disegno di un'aquila stringendo fulmine 23 Gennaio 1904
Société pour les armes de guerre Società per le armi della guerra Pirlot Eugène et Gustave arquebusiers à Liège entre 1830 et 1880 (voir ce nom) Pirlot e Eugene moschettieri Gustave a Liegi tra il 1830 e il 1880 (vedi nome)
Soleil Léon Leo dom 477 Rue St Léonard Liège 477 Rue St Leonard Liegi

Jani, a guess would be the same as yours and between 1900 & WWI.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

On Belgian guns, easy to tell 1924 or earlier by proofmarks: 12 over C in a diamond. Later guns (12's) would be 12- followed by the chamber length in MM. And on the later guns, there's also a date code which will give you the exact year, although occasionally it's hard to read.

Thanks. Mine is before 1924. It is also marked 75 M/M, likely meaning a long chamber.

With kind regards,
Jani

I sent an email to the company two months ago and today I have received their answer: #33673 was made in 1900.

With kind regards,
Jani

This gun appears to be a genuine extra finish best work gun. Such guns can be of most any brand. The master gun makers knew which of their in-workers and which out-workers were capable of such work, what their time frame was and what they charged. Original Quality grade of a gun is independent of brand. However, obtaining commissions to make such guns was another matter altogether.

Four Liege makes of the later 1800's - early 1900's set about to elevate the status of their area's trade by adopting the informal standards of the London trade. They were Lebeau, Francotte, Bury, and - and - rats, my memory has slipped a cog. OK, who was the fourth? Their names do not guarantee a best work gun, but a gun that appears best work with one of these four names is likely to be such. Keep in mind that almost all makes supplied a range of quality grades - the Belgians were not exceptions.

Hope that helps.

DDA

I was leafing through the September 1903 edition of the 'Sporting Goods Review & Gunmaker' the other day, as you do, and came across this, which I thought may be of interest to this thread:

"The Webley-Lebeau-Courally Continental Firearms Co Ltd has opened a London depot at 1 Lower James Street, Golden Square, where a selection of guns and revolvers will shortly be on view, under the charge of Mr John Wilkes."

Of course that address was John Wilkes' shop. It is interesting that the PR spin says 'London depot', whereas what would seem to be the case was that John Wilkes was acting as an agent for the firm.

Tim

Resurrection --

I am looking at a SLE 20 marked Auguste LeBeau. It appears to have Whitworth fluid compressed chopper lump barrels and Brazier locks. Belgian proofs. Looks like an ENglish gun. Is this possible?

More details when I have it in hand on Monday.

C-Man--Is that by any chance a 20ga from Kirby Hoyt? Just happened to see one described that way.

Larry

Yes. This is on it's way to my smith for inspection - I'll see it there on Monday. It has some issues, but we'll find them all. It is built and looks like an English gun - even has a purvey type 3rd fastener.

If LeBeau died in 1896 - this would have to have been a late gun or it was not made by LeBeau himself?

I looked at that gun too. Had the gun had 28" barrels I would have bought it. Very nice gun! Kirby is good to deal with.

Buzz - I need to have a dedicated quail gun. I started out looking for another graded Fox 20 with 28" bbls and ejectors. After months, I decided to scratch the Fox idea -- they have become over-priced. Found a light weight Piotti 20 I liked, but couldn't close the deal to my satisfaction. In a perfect world this LeBeau would have 28" tubes. I will see how I like it on Monday.

Yes, Kirby is good to deal with.

Cman; I bet you will like it. I'm 6'1" so I like 28", but 26" is ok too. I don't think it really makes a hoot worth of difference on quail, 26" vs 28". I'm guessing I could shoot 26" as well as 28" in the heat of battle with the wild quail. Let us know how you like your new gun. Best, Buzz

From Igor Robertovich Karklinsh's research http://shotguncollector.com/2016/03/28/lebeau-courally-between-truth-and-fiction/ it follows that "August Lebeau, the greatest maker of Liege, maker to Emperors" was a myth created by Ferdinand Courally to promote his business. (It's not that August Lebeau never existed or was a bad gunmaker, but he was likely "one of", and not "the").

As a matter of fact, a lot of Lebeau-Courally guns are marked simply "Aug. Lebeau a Liege", and this went on for quite a while, at least until 1904-1905.

By the way, Karklinsh believes Courally started his own numbering sequence from an arbitrary number in the 3xxxx range - 30000 or 31000, or some such - so it should be easy to tell from serial No whether a gun was before or after Lebeau's death and Courally's taking over.

This was common during the early part of the century. Even Beretta was touting their "english" features in their catalogs. It does not surprise me.

Pete

C Man, I've only done a couple deals with Kirby. Both satisfactory. Last summer, a friend bought a gun from him at the Great Northern. A couple issues became apparent once he started shooting the gun. (No reason Kirby should have been aware of them.) My friend contacted Kirby who took care of everything--on his dime. Not all dealers will do that.

Let us know how the inspection turns out. Sounds like an interesting gun.

I agree there as you have Jules Bury and De Fourney among others also producing masterpieces.

Boy that's one big Matzah ball. I'd for one would like to see that substantiated. Is there any genealogy and/or birth/death info for August Lebeau? I wonder if info on Webley - Lebeau - Courally might shed some light? Would be interesting to delve into.


Arquebusier Lebeau frères et Cie, fabricants d'armes à Liège - 1880. So apparently there were a couple Brothers Lebeau in the arms trade.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thank you posting an English version of the article by Igor Robertovich Karklinsh. My 1st reaction is to say he should go to Liege, however, after taking another look at the pictures, I feel he did. He should have made use of the resources there. With two museums there are many brains to pick!

I could spend months going over this article, but it is not worth it to me. One of the most glaring mistakes is his references to the 1894 expo. He states that Lebeau died in 1896. So, is possible he was too sick to attend? Also, take a good look at the names. These are the same makers who formed the consortium that became FN. LeBeau was never part of the group.

Having said all this. My heart goes out to Igor for setting out alone to uncover this info. Is he still around? Does he speak English? He would make great addition here and I would love a session on Skype with him.

Pete

Thanks Pete. Mr. Lebeau was a respected gun maker, without a doubt. Unfortunately, the meaning was slightly lost in translation into English. I deleted this passage.

Igor

P.S. I have been many times in Liege

www.shotguncollector.com

Igor,

It so good to find that you are a member here!!! I respect the lonely research you have been doing in this regard.

I will contact you via a PM so that we can arrange some time on Skype.

Perhaps we can arrange a meeting in Liege.

Pete

Isn't that discussion a bit of a moot point?
We all know what matter most is the end result, and not the brand.
I have definitely seen some pretty so-so L-Cs, and some fantastic ones.
I don't like 1950s Purdeys, but I love their 1880s to 1920s fare.

Of course, it's a great thing to know about the people involved...
But there is no one named Holland left at H&H. The brand can last a lot longer than the person. Of course, that is only true if the product quality and commercial success stays up or improves along the way...

Best regards,
WC-

A great read. I lived for several years in Brussels and traveled to Liege in the 1980's but at the time did not know the history of Liege arms makers. I do know French ones. This has been an excellent history and artisanal lesson. Thanks. That gun is just...nice! And if you need some texts translated...I or wife can do. My youngest was born in Ixelles, Brussels.

A very informative thread here. I hope I can add a little information soon.

Pete, unfortunately there is a reason that I`m in a hurry to write about what I know. It would be grate to meet in Liege ... Maybe in the next life

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

Thanks for the nice review. Translation into French is a big challenge. Who will pay for this job?

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

I agree. New information allows to revise old stereotypes.

Kind regards,
Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

Bœuf Sauvage:

You well know that we are overly obsessed far beyond the fine fare of our beloved mechanics. From Bernard, Mode, Guyot, etc. the more obscure the firearms merchant, the more we are consumed. And one knows this to be true when you are chasing serialization and touchmarks on wares that have more than 100 years.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Sure, Raimey.
I was trying to put things in perspective.
E.g. even though I'd love to understand what happened to the people involved, it is as important to understand what happened to the brand itself.
We all know that the important brands have been built on a lot more than the founder's name and business practices.
F. Beesley was instrumental to Purdey, T.Woodward and Froome to Holland, L. Taylor, Deeley and Edge to W. Richards, etc...

Browsing around, I have found "Auguste Lebeau" (sans Courally) guns such as this one going all the way to 1926, with the same SN system than the LCs.
So that brand was kept alive for a long time, after Auguste L. demise's.

Best regards,
WC-

By the way I think that Anne-Marie Moermans has been remarkably successful in keeping the brand going in the worst possible times for the luxury hunting weapon business. The odds are very much against her.
Best regards,
WC-

Igor,

Down the street from the Curtis is a smallish restaurant that is used by mostly locals. The jambon is good and the beer is cold. I will pay for the beer.

I was diagnosed 2 years ago. Luckily, the chemo is working. Keep fighting!

Pete

Pete,

Hope dies last. It's true. Many thanks for your support.

Anything can happen.......if you will pay for the beer

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

I just found a judgment dated Jan 8 1898 about the inheritance of Auguste L.
The affair is complex due to the bankruptcy of "Lebeau freres" in 1880.
It seems like Auguste had to repay his debt post bankruptcy, but failed to do it appropriately.
Therefore the bank tried to get the inheritance from AL's heirs who were also fighting among themselves.
He did not seem to have been married, but a Marie Lebeau was involved as well as some others.

Auguste's frere was named Jules. He seemed to have been out of the picture in 1898.

There is no mention of Courally whatsoever.

WC-

That's great! Belgian Court documents in civil cases confirm this information.

TOOK A GOOD LOOK AT THE LEBEAU 20 SLE. I decided to pass. This is a very high grade gun.

Thank you in advance. I need a few days to edit the text in English according to some documents. These new documents are already in the blog in Russian. Cordialement.

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

Kind of confused over objections to this statement. No question he was a great gunmaker but I question was he not one of a few producing guns at that level in Belgium which is exactly what was said?

Let me paraphrase the question.

What evidence is there exactly that Auguste Lebeau was a star gunmaker, the best or one of the very best in Liege?

Alexsey, this is a very good question, for me he was not better then other Liège artisans, my personal opinion is that the succes of Lebeau is due that your Tsaar was a client, and his picture with a Lebeau on his knees is know all over the world.
Cheers, Marc.

The Russian Tsar as a repeat customer is one indication.

LeBeau


Ferdinand VII of Spain


Tsar of Russia

I don't have a picture for the King of Belgium, but he did have several LeBeau guns.

Pete

But that's precisely Igor's point!

- the Tsar's guns were ordered circa 1898,
- the Kaiser's gun dates to 1910
- the king of Spain's guns date to circa 1900

All their guns were made by Courally, after - sometimes, well after - Auguste Lebeau's death!

To reiterate another Igor's point: all we know about Auguste Lebeau's greatness comes from Courally's advertising copy.

(or was printed after Courally's ad campaings and could be influenced by them)

Is there evidence that Auguste Lebeau was one of the best makers in Liege that pre-dates Courally's involvement?

Good point. I don't have an answer for you. Definition of 'Best' gun or 'Best' gunmaker is always going to be subjective.

I have my own opinions on what a 'Best' gun or a 'Best' gunmaker is but those are my opinions only.

Colleagues, article "Lebeau-Courally. Between Truth and Fiction" updated and supplemented with new documents.

As always many thanks to Mr. Alex Morozov (Humpty Dumpty).

http://shotguncollector.com/2016/03/28/lebeau-courally-between-truth-and-fiction/

Same argument as is now being presented about the Hawken rifle during the exploration of western America. Review of the actual diaries and journals of the explorers of that region never mentioned the superiority of the Hawken rifle over other builders. It was only after this period in the 1880's and 1890's that praise is recorded, whereas contemporary accounts praise other builders.

In 1845 during the John C. Fremont expedition, for example, rifles built by Joseph Cooper of New York were given away as prizes to the best shots of the expedition over Hawken rifles that were also purchased for the expedition. There is also high praise given in contemporary accounts of the rifles built by Joseph Manton or Dickson & Gilmore as well as other makers, whereas, again, no such contemporary praise can be found specifically mentioning the Hawken rifle.

It seems we have possibly the same or a much more complicated situation here.

1. If Auguste Lebeau was a great gunmaker, could you support this claim with hard evidence, e.g. a gun made in his shop before 1896

2. All "Royal guns" were made by Ferdinand Courally's company, and Auguste Lebeau had nothing to do with them, as he died in 1896.

3. Auguste Lebeau worked with his brother Jules, it's their "Lebeau Brothers" partnership that won medals at international exhibitions and made guns to Great Prince Mikhail Romanoff. Why isn't Jules Lebeau known as a great gunmaker?

I think everything will fall into place if you can answer these questions.

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

Excellent article Igor. Very informative.

It would seem that the Brothers Lebeau concern was comprised of Jules and Gustave Lebeau and the concern faltered in 1881. For the moment not sure of the family relationship between Auguste Lebeau and Gustave & Jules Lebeau.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Hi, Raimey

Please, read the article again. There is a document of notary. I think it will remove your questions.

Regards,

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

I take the opinion from this article that it was Ferdinand Courally that elevated the August Lebeau gun up to that elite level of Bodson(?) and DeFourney?


But can he do that in such a short period of time?

Correct promotion, variety of models, excellent finishing... Mr. Courally was an extraordinary businessman is beyond any doubt. His father was a wealthy man. Maybe he invested money in business of his son?

Igor, I have read the English text and IMHO there is a little mistake when you say that the writer ment Holland & Holland, I think it is Galand who was a period artisan gunmaker and make also "Best" guns.
Cheers, Marc.

Hi, Mark

It's not a mistake. Bitkov wrote Galan a`Galan (word for word), but not Galand. It's hard to say what he had in mind

Regards,

Igor

That, or the writer had Galand and Holland&Holland confused

Courally's marketing STILL WORKS on Russian gunners. He was a bloody genius.

Igor:

Me thinks you to be most correct in Courally being an investor. In most, with few exceptions, a partnership is composed of a fella with capital & a mechanic with talent. Have you any information that Courally was an actual arquebusier and attained the rank of master? Probably operated the concern on the coattails of Lebeau?

Cheers,

Ramey
rse

upd - or was it Larderet's idea to name models after Russian nobility?

Raimey,

I have`t such information. Unfortunately I can only repeat. I’m afraid we’ll never know whether Courally was a great gunmaker or engineer.

Regards,

Igor

Not making any comparisons, but to me the brace of fellas(Lebeau-Courally) brings to mind Charles Daly & H.A. Lindner. Daly too was a bloody genius, but the talent died with him.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

May be. Lindner and the best German boxlock are
synonyms for me.

Regards,

Igor

Hi, Alex

Larderet's or Courally`s does`t matter. Important this idea worked

From an English speaker with some knowledge of Russian: Galan a Galan works as a Russian version of Holland and Holland. Think Halan . . . but Russian doesn't have an H like ours.

In other words, can we assume that Ferdinand Courally had the wherewithal to raise a gun into the 'Best' category over such a short period of time or was that gunmaker, August Lebeau, already considered one of the best?

Once again, I digress to the Daly - Lindner alliance. Daly, like all other firearms merchants did not want any evidence that would suggest his shop did not manufacture his wares. Lindner was the unsung draft mule & had it not been for the loss of his son in the early fighting with the Brits in the Great War, the Lindner hallmark of quality would have been better appreciated. True fit & finish doesn't bode of the quality but the illiterate client, who was just unaware of the processes of sporting weapons manufacture, assumed that if he purchased from the wares of a top retailer, then he was guaranteed quality. Until now, there wasn't a protocol for summing quality based on the superposition of effort by the most talented mechanics.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

The Jules - Auguste Lebeau concerned faltered and went into receivership/bankruptcy & I'd hedge my bets that successor Ferd. Courally was cognizant of the talent potential & picked up the pieces by interjecting cash into the sporting weapons effort:





https://books.google.com/books?id=wnkwAQ...ege&f=false

https://books.google.com/books?id=zZ0wAQ...ege&f=false

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Except that the other judgment from 1898 does not mention Courally whatsoever.
Either he was part of a different corporation with Lebeau post bankruptcy, or he bought the name after AL's death. Or maybe he bought the brand from the bank which received the assets left behind after his death.

Basically unless I am missing something, there is today no evidence that Courally worked with Lebeau while he was alive.

Again this discussion is kind of irrelevant.
Gunmakers (and many industrialists) need a few elements
- a Marketing strategy
- Technology
- a skilled workforce
- capital

Examples abound of successful companies where the lead person is a sole marketer who make do without most of the other bits.
Harris Holland was one, but William Evans, WJ Jeffery and many others are in that category.
Some companies start that way and gather the workforce later (H&H), others go the other way around and end up outsourcing their fare (such as Gastinne-Renette).
Even Purdey acquired their flagship technology from Beesley.
There is nothing wrong with that, those are just different business models.
Again, at the end of the day, what matters most for us is the end result e.g. the gun.
There is no way that the court of Russia would have used substandard or even average implements, so if they used Courally's stuff, it had to be very nice. After all, they had shooting events with all the crowned heads of Europe, so they certainly could not look bad.
The Liege trade was plenty good enough to produce top quality anything.
Who actually did it, we'll likely never know.
Of course, the quality of the stuff sent to St-Petersburg might have been entirely different from the bulk of the production. So as always, this a gun by gun evaluation.

Best regards,

WC-

By the way AL left over 207000Francs at this death, and that was a large amount of money (even though he owed over 300000 francs from the Lebeau freres bankruptcy).
So no matter what he did after that bankruptcy, he did make a lot of money. Doing what kind of activity?
At that time a Franc was worth exactly 4.5grams of Silver. So his assets were equivalent to one tonne of Silver, not a small quantity.
Best regards,
WC-

There is a very complex story involving the purchase by a Bordeaux militia of Chassepot rifles from Lebeau freres in 1870.
The French agent seems to have been screwed in the deal, to the point that there was a Congressional inquiry after the facts, in which Auguste had to testify.
The amounts involved are considerable. Peabody is part of the story, and Lebeau said he was a Peabody agent in Belgian.
Incidentally Lebeau Freres received patents for the modification of Chassepot rifles to use with metallic cartridges.
Best regards,
WC-

I also found somewhere the picture of a Remington rolling block rifle stamped with "Lebeau freres" rather than Nagant who did hold a license.
The brothers were doing all kinds of stuff, it seems.
There is some confusion on who the brothers actually were either Jules and Auguste or Jules and Gustave.
It looks to me like Auguste replaced Gustave at some point.
The late 1860s were a gold mine for Belgian weapon makers with the US civil war and the Franco-Prussian war among other markets, so it is no big surprise than the Lebeaus were in the thick of it, far away from making luxury hunting gear.
WC-

Me too!

20 Gauge Lindner Daly

Beautiful gun C Man, just beautiful.

Built stout is an understatement.

Thank you. This is a mid-grade Prussian Lindner Daly. Amazing guns, really.

Raimey,

It's all well but I don't think your comparison is valid. Courally did not promote the name of the maker who worked for him. Courally promoted as his brand the name of a gunmaker who was already dead. I repeat - only the brand, not the guns made by the Lebeau.

Regards,

Igor

www.shotguncollector.com

C-man, those barrels are in serious need of bluing!

Igor:

With the Galloping Bovine's(WC's) comments I see how Courally resurrected the image of Auguste Lebeau & projected it forward as THE name for quality. I too think Courally was a mastermind regarding marketing but he still had to have a QA/QC(Eye of Quality) akin to Lindner or Lebeau, so considering Lebeau is not an option, Courally had to court the subcontactors or mechanics of the Lebeau concern and akin to herding cats, Courally had to have some cohesion, other than money, to retain the allegiance of the mechanics to the level of quality that Courally propagated thru advertising as the concern had to deliver. I just do not believe that Courally was an arquebusier and rode on the coattails of Lebeau's on the quality of his wares. So at some point, possibly prior to Lebeau's demise, Courally had to court either the concern or the heirs & assigns to keep the concern whole.

Regarding the Daly concern, when Lindner was not the QA/QC for S,D & G & Daly was not @ the helm for marketing, the concern faltered and was cast into lots & dispersed. Courally somehow overcame that obstacle.

Lovely blog and thread by the way.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Raimey,

We don`t know anything about the quality of Lebeau except bad images in the Nobili`s book. Kiplauff of Prince Michael Romanoff and mitrailleuse of standard quality (see my blog).
https://shotguncollector.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/img_72651.jpg
https://shotguncollector.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/5.jpg

M-me Moermans told me in Lebeau`s workshop worked no more than 15 people. Courally had at the disposal of 2 workshops not smaller than Francotte.

Regards,

Igor

We cannot include nor compare James Purdey or other English makers in this discussion as they established themselves as a 'Best' guns long before the breechloader appeared and, in the case of James Purdey, even longer before they adopted the Beesley action. As the American Indian once said of their English fowlers, which they preferred and craved above all others, "Feel good in the hands and their locks don't freeze in the winter time."

However, folklore tells us when Alfred the Great sought refuge among his serfs after the Danes pushed him out of his kingdom, he proved that he was their king by showing them the quality of his sword. "That's the sword of a King." "I am your King."

People who can afford the 'Best' normally have the 'Best' All the time.

So, to come back to the Lebeau brothers. They seemed to enjoy some reputation in Liege, anyway, if they were "recommended", and could attract investors. Yet, their story seems to be filled with court action, bankrupcies and partners opting out of partnership. How would that impact their reputation in Liege? We know that for the Brits in early XIX century a bancruptcy was a stigma - even the great Joe Manton couldn't get on his feet again. Were Liege gunmakers of the late XIX century more bancruptcy tolerant?

Another question - how about the analysis of sporting/weaponry press? That usually doesn't say anything about how good a maker is, but is a good indication of how well-known. Were there any gun/hunting magazines in 1860-1890 Belgium?

Although my library is severely limited I don't see Lebeau shotguns touted anywhere in contemporary works.

I think this is due to the fact that as a hunting weapon market, Belgium was negligible.
The vast majority of the stuff was exported to France, US and Germany.
At least that's what the forensics say.
In that context, there would be almost no point in publishing anything locally, as there would be no customers to convince and therefore no advertisement money.

Of course, whatever was in Belgium in 1940 went to Germany anyways, and then on to the US in 1945, so maybe I am wrong, but if you look at the country size, density, etc., I still think I am about right.
Best regards,
WC-

Generating sales for the trade is NOT the only function of outdoor press - no matter how much reading contemporary American magazines may convince you to the contrary Originally, hunting mags made most of their money out of subscribers, in return for the service of providing them with accurate and valuable information on the issues of interest to them - including "which gun is a better buy". Lots of authors would also mention the names of the guns in their stories - NOT as product placement, but just to express their liking or disappointment.

Wild cattle, you are only partially correct the majority of the produced guns whent for export, neverthless many high grade guns stayed in privat collections. You forgot to mention that Americans destroyed many guns volontary and that many guns got to the Russians.
Cheers, Marc.

Well, that's all they had back then was magazines and newspapers to promote and to inform people of what was taking place in the shooting sports.

So what we have here is the Lebeau brothers building a gun that was not recognized or used by anyone until Ferdinand Courally invested in the firm and promoted the Lebeau gun to a point where royalty such as the Czar of Russia took notice and started buying them. Which, of course, promoted the Lebeau Courally gun into 'Best' status throughout the world. Am I correct?

That is the whole truth.
Cheers, Marc.

Colleagues, I hope this is the end of discussion
https://shotguncollector.com/2016/03/28/lebeau-courally-between-truth-and-fiction/

The "product placement" concept doesn't exactly ring true when we look at the American outdoor press going back to the last couple decades of the 20th century, and continuing until today. Much of the renaissance in American interest in vintage doubles centered on classic American side by sides--most of which hadn't been made since before World War II, or else the companies in question stopped making side by sides shortly after the war. You don't have anyone paying you to promote Parkers when they haven't been made for 40 years. Yet if you look at the vintage doublegun market in the United States today, prices for Parkers, Foxes, LC Smiths, Ithacas, Lefevers, and Winchester Model 21's--especially in gauges other than 12--remain very strong. Meanwhile, I can't think of a single side by side, either made in this country or imported since the mid to late 1980's, that has enjoyed the success of a copy of one of those classic doubles: the Parker Reproduction.

Meanwhile, we've had books written about all of the above American classics. And reproductions of just about all of them (albeit none that sold nearly as well as the Japanese-made Parkers). And in the outdoor press we continue to see stories from writers who are still shooting a vintage Parker, Fox, Ithaca, etc. Yes, we do see reviews of this or that new double from Italy or Turkey, or less frequently these days, Spain. But individually, none of those guns seem to catch on as well as did the Japanese-made and Ithaca-imported SKB of the 60's and 70's, or Browning's Japanese BSS of the 70's and 80's. All of which were modestly priced guns, generally regarded as being solid guns at their original prices.

And having written more than a few gun reviews of new guns (albeit probably more articles about ones that were last new more than half a century ago), I'd have to add that I never saw as much as a nickel for the "product placement" I gave them. As writers, we are often able to buy new guns at attractive prices. But we don't get them for free, nor do we get anything from the maker other than hope for a mostly positive review and some good publicity.