I repaired the extractor on a Spanish double for a friend today. Just a broken screw on a link in the forearm that pushes the extractor. I've always been told that Spanish doubles aren't the best quality but this thing seems to be well made. Here is a brief description of it. Sorry I don't have a digital camera to post pics. The gun is a 12 bore box lock chambered for 3" shells. Nicely engraved. Fences have clips. It has a cross bolt through the doll's head. All screws are timed in line. Barrels and water table are full of proof marks. The breech face has three holes drilled around each firing pin hole to accomodate a spanner wrench for replacing the firing pins. __ig-Eibar-Spain is on the left barrel. The blank I left before ig is a weird letter I can't make out. It seems to be either an E or a B upper case. When I was finished with the job I couldn't resist taking it out to test fire. Locks up tight with no play, lever on center, and shoots like a dream. I'll shed a tear when I return it to my customer but a job is a job. Just to satisfy my curiosity does anybody have ideas as to who or what company made it or imported it?

I am by no means an expert on Spanish doubles, but they did get a bit of a reputation for low quality on some models in the 50s and 60s since some sellers here in the States ordered them to a low price point. But now they have some great quality boxlocks and sidelocks at thousands less than their English counterparts. I know there are some much more knowledgeable people here that could give you some more insight if you can find a camera to photograph the marks and gun.

As kolhoznik said, Spanish imports in the 50's and 60's were made to a price point that American importers dictated (mainly Sears) and the guns showed that. Many of the old Aya Matador's or Model 100's are nice guns however (especially the 100's) and are head and shoulder over their American contemporary rivals of the time (Fox B, 311's...etc). The Spanish do and always have made high end doubles based on the Holland action, and if you want a hand made bespoke sidelock without mortgaging your house Spain is the place to go. Shotgunworld has a Spanish forum with lots of info.

I had two Spanish guns and they were both excellent quality. The Arrieta I had some troubles with but the other one an AMR was unbelievably strong for how light it was. I think AMR is still in business but have quit making finished guns and only do rough work for the bigger names now.

As was mentioned,the integrity of the internals on some low priced guns was the only issue. Integrity of barrels and frame not an issue.

This will give all the info you want on the gun by the barrel flat marks.

http://personales.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones.html

The better Spanish sidelocks hold their own against the best English game guns. The modestly-priced AyA #2 is the best-selling SxS in Britain. There's been a recent price bump in Spanish guns but they still are great bargains.

I have an O/U that is marked "Laurona/Eibar." I just had the frame blacked, and the gunsmith who took it apart seemed impressed. It has double single triggers (which I can't believe aren't more popular), and he said it came apart easier than many other boxlocks. I guess the trigger assembly slid apart from the receiver as a unit. He also said the springs were captive, making assembly easier.
CHAZ

I'll put my AyA SLE up against just about anything. Are there more lavish guns available? Of course there are but I doubt if they perform any better than the AyA I own.
Jim

I checked the barrel marks and it has F.S. stamped it. According to the site that Patriot USA gave me I find at least the barrels were made by Francisco Sarriugarte. Don't ask me to pronounce that one.LOL Anyway does somebody know if this guy made the whole shotgun and if his guns were high end, low end or somewhere in between? Compared to my beloved Remington 1900 this shotgun's cocking levers are massive. I'm thinking of asking the owner if he would consider selling the piece. (Like I need another sxs double. ) The way it is built it can't be something that Sears and Robust or Monkey Ward imported.

The water table should have the maker's name (or mark) stamped on it as well. Yes, Sarriugarte made whole guns. (pronounced: sorry-oohhh-gart-tay - more or less)

By the way, Sears imported an AyA and sold it as their "Model 100" that allegedly is a Model 21 clone.

If the gun has pistol grip, single trigger, no sling swivels and fat beavertail forend it probably was made for export to the US.

The allegations of it being a Winchester 21 clone are false. The method of barrel joining and bolting systems of each piece are different.

This is a Zabala Derby imported by American Arms, not sure when.
It is a 6 pin (only 5 are used, it has a coil mainspring and the other pin is a dummy), cocking indicators, single non-selective trigger, auto ejectors that use the Southgate syle, hidden second bite,bushed firing pins with gas ports, straight stock with a checkered butt. Weighs 7lbs. .08 ozs with 26" barrels and 7 lbs. 3.6 ozs. with 27 1/2" barrels
I bought a spare set of barrels and fitted them. The barrels that came with it were 26" imp.cyl/mod. These are 27 1/2" and are mod/full. No proof marks or any other marks on the new barrels, but all information on the other set.

I should have looked at the water table too. My bad. It is also marked F.S. for Francisco Sarriugarte. So now I have the brand/maker of the whole shotgun. Thanks to all of you guys for helping me out. Any ideas as to its value? I don't want to cheat the guy or be cheated myself if he agrees to sell. The bores are perfect, no bulges, no dings. The stock has some minor chips in the varnished finish but no scratches or gouges, checkering is crisp. The padded butt plate is petrified with age and needs replacing. The triggers appear to have been gold or something plated and the front part of each trigger has the plating wore off from use. From all appearances it was well taken care of.

You can get approximate prices off Gunbroker. What year was it made? Thre is a year code on the barrel flats.

You still haven't said if it's PG or stratight stock; splinter or beavertail.

I will probably get flamed by the usual flamers but in my opinion beavertail, gold triggers and pistol grip reduce the value.

Many of these Spanish guns are very nice and far better than the new comparably-priced guns.

No flaming from me. With so much info to look at I neglected to include it does have a beavertail fore end and a pistol grip stock. I do prefer a splinter fore end and straight stock but I'll forgive the pisol grip in that it isn't near as pronounced as some shotguns I've handled. The stock is comparable to my Remington 1900.

Francisco Sarriugarte made complete guns to just about every price point, from a plain working man’s box lock right up to a heavily decorated side lock for the landed gentry. The value of any given FS gun depends on the gun. The triggers aren’t gold plated; what you are seeing is heat straw.

Here is a FS box lock that’s a little off the wall:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=250448306

Top of the line box lock, gold inlay. Some of his top end side lock guns are just stunning. FS went out of business during the DIARM fiasco.

Well, this post tied up all the loose ends of this thread except one**. The gun Kyrie posted a link to is almost the twin sister to what I have minus the gold inlay and the engraving on the one here is a floral pattern.

**The loose end that I will tie up now is that I just purchased this well made shotgun and it is now sitting in my gunroom anxiously awaiting pheasant season. This winter the stock will be refinished with a new buttplate.

Thanks for all the help guys. It was greatly appreciated. J.R.B. jerb

J.R.B.

I've got a twin to your gun. Mine was imported by Bach Walker International in Detroit. Was obviously made for the US market with a beavertail, white line recoil pad, full pistol grip, and 3in chambers. The link that Patriot USA gave you also will tell you the proof date. Mine is Q1 which is 1972.

Only problem with mine is a poorly fitted forearm wood.
Killed 6 blue wing teal with mine this week.

Jeff

I didn't bother to check the proof date yet. One of these days I have to pattern it. After miking the barrels I notice that the choke bore is a very tight choke. In fact it is the tightest choke of all my 12 bore guns. Looks like I will be waiting to pull the trigger on the left barrel so I don't blow up my pheasants. Wood to metal fit is exact on butt stock and forearm.

JRB,
I like F&Fer, have a Bache Import. It is stamped Q1 which dates it to '72.
Mine weighs just under 7 pounds and doesn't have the cross-bolt and rib extension.
Back of the receiver is scalloped, action is nicely case colored with
minimal/simple scroll engraving. Fences are also carved with a nice floral pattern
but nothing as fancy as the gunbroker gun. BTFE and semi-pistol grip with white-line spacers.
BTFE is nice and trim and nicely fitted to barrels.
Triggers are nicely shaped--not blobs of steel like you sometimes see on the basic spanish guns.
Picked it up last winter for next to nothing, so I'm looking forward to bloodying it this fall.
The only real strike against this gun is the top rib wasn't laid perfectly straight,
but bbls are nicely regulated. Should make a fine shooter.
-jim

I have a Victor Sarasqueta imported for Stoeger when they were still in New York. It's a 20 with 26" tubes chambered for 2-3/4" shells. A true sidelock H&H copy with PG and splinter. Marked Zephyr. As to fitting and workmanship I will put it up to any gun I've seen. Seems to have been made in the early 59's. Ejectors strong and put the empies a few inches apart. Chops

Kinda like this 16 ga V. Sarasqueta, but it has a beavertail.

After reading these posts and looking at the pics I've changed my view about these guns. After hunting season I'll be taking the stock off and have it refinished with a new buttplate. I'm thinking of doing an oil finish on it rather than the varnish. The stock has an oval metal insert on the bottom for engraving the owners initials. It will have J.R.B. engraved in the oval before final assembly. While it's apart I'll clean and oil the internal mechanism. I'm going to try to do that without removing the engraved/timed screws. I have a good set of gun screwdrivers but all it takes is just one, JUST ONE, slip and you will hear me curse from North Dakota all the way back to Spain. Don't get me wrong, I still love my old damascus Remingtons but this gun is definately a keeper.

Hi all, just for fun, here's my Victor Sarasqueta:







This one is a Model 12E, 12ga. Very nice gun. The workmanship on this one is on par and dare I say, better than some of my English guns.

The Spanish have, can and do make guns in the "Best Gun" tradition. As most know, they can also be had for a fraction of the cost of an English Best or 1st Quality piece. True, there have been some dogs imported here, but that's due to the importers wanting everthing under the sun for pennies. Something has to give, and that was the internal parts fo the action. No one is going to buy a gun that is excellent on the inside and looks like hell on the outside. So inorder to make a profit, the Spanish makers skimped on the parts you can't see.

The day of the ultra cheap Spanish gun is over. They are still around on the used market and the price reflects the quality of the gun.

BTW, Sarriugarte didn't totally die with the end of DIARM, they came back as Kemen. Kemen is a world class maker and well known to many.

Spanish guns will always get a bad rap from many, but overall they have proved themselves to be great guns, IMO at least!

J.R.B. wher in ND are you if I may ask?

All the best!

Greg

Ah, you went and stole the show with that one, Greg.

Greg, that's simply stunning and probably shoots as well as it looks!

There was a flood of cheap 30-yearish-old Spanish guns on the market int he past few years and I bought some; saw many. My impression (very subjective) is that the real crap isn't out there much anymore - it wore out, broke and got thrown away.

A lot of the inexpensive (ca $5-600) sidelocks of this period are really pretty good although they are a tad clunky.

My mid-range V. Sarasqueta SLNE ($450) is a far better gun then my Beretta Silverhawk. It handles much better.

The guns you guys have described on this thread are real bargains, probably not to be often seen again.

Thanks all for the kind words! Much appreciated. Excellent point Gnomon on the old cheapies being wore out, broke or tossed. Good points all the way around BTW.

Take care all!

Greg

I'll give you a clue where I am Greg --->Just look for the "World's Largest Holstein Cow". Not that I'm proud of the thing.

My Viludia Sarasqueta U/O I suspect this maker was trying to cash in on Victors name. Its pretty, but has material and manufacturing deficiencies.

Hi, would her name happen to be "Sue"? If so, then your a Morton county boy. Well, so am I. I live south of Mandan.

All the best!

Greg

I think you will find ther were several Sarasqueta's. Felix is one that comes to mind. There was also a Sarsketa {may have got the spelling wrong},of whom I can only say I have seen bottom end guns by.

This one has really piqued my interest.

I cannot make out the full name on the action; would it be possible to spell it out?

Also there will be a 'maker's mark' on the barrel flats and the inner surface of the receiver;
would it be possible to get a clear picture?

With that information I may be able to share some additional information concerning your gun.

Best,

Kyrie

Good to see another Morton county boy. You have a PM Greg. I live in the Sweetbriar Valley northwest of the dam. Truth be known I didn't think this post would generate so much interest. I bought the gun because of it being well made.

A little update on the Sarriugarte. Yesterday I threw a lawn party and BBQ (hickory smoked pork ribs with the trimmings). The neighbor and his family were here and brought a target thrower. I had only one box of trap shells for it and figured I would get some practice in before hunting season. I busted the first and only target they threw for me. The rest of the box of shells his kids used up. Oh well, it was fun watching the kids have a literal blast with it. His daughter is 18 and never shot a shotgun in her life. After some quick instructions she hit with the Sarriugarte like a pro. I think I have three new recruits for doublegunning. Both kids and their Dad are looking for double guns now. Ah, nothing like having a BBQ/lawn party and a little target practice for dessert.

I've got a cheap 12 ga. shotgun marked "Parkemy" that's Spanish. It's tight, and the top lever is well right, but it's basically a rabbit gun. I haven't bothered checking the water table.

I'm glad someone brought this up:
My wife and I are always inviting people to go shooting with us as it introduces them to the positive side of firearms ownership and use and I think to a degree negates the negative stuff they constantly see on the"mainstream" news media.
We've had teenagers come out of our club grinning ear to ear carrying a rolled up target they just punctured with a H&K MP5.
Unfortunately we can't have a "shooting" BBQ in our very suburban neighborhood.
Jim