Here's something that should be considered more as we buy and sell and hunt internationally... inlays could be targeted???

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

Saw that, could have some implications for the gun folks, depending how anal they want to get.

Think about it, having to prove those grips or sight beads are Legal Ivory. Exotic wood forends… slippery slope

Darn! I didn't even know there were Wood Police, what next?...Geo

and you wonder why more and more companies relocate off shore.

One of my sons builds guitars. He's felt that this was coming three years ago.
There has been this underground "wood" highway operating for years.

It does beg the question; Could there possibly br TOO many government employees with time on their hands?

Not much different then the recent SWAT team raid of a dairy in CA.

http://www.infowars.com/raw-food-raid-armed-agents-bust-raw-milk-cheese-sellers/

The Feds refuse to do anything about illegal aliens/criminals entering the USA but they're all over this?

Could this be a piece of wood can't vote....yet?

Mike

Its irritating how the folks who 'need' to control everything make such a big deal out of stuff like this, but they are, after all, just enforcing the law. If the illegal trade in rare and exotic woods is a problem, and if the musical instrument makers are violating the law, then we either have to enforce the law or do away with it.

Same thing with dairymen who have a lucrative following of food nuts who want unpasteurized products. That law's for the health of the people and if its worth having on the books its worth enforcing.

Customs agents going overboard about ivory keys on 200 year old pianos or exotic woods on guitars or violins or something like that may be less helpful...Geo

Geo., After all, they are FEDERAL EMPLOYEE'S.....have you ever known ANY Federal employee to NOT go overboard at least a little to show their degree of "self importance".......?.......A Federal Employee's translation of a specific Federal law is always cloudy at best..........

Cheers,

Well said PA24..........

With a SWAT team armed with machine guns?? Maybe the Highway Patrol should get some M1 tanks to enforce the speed limit.

The NYS DEC was all over a Syracuse Gun Show last year looking for "illegal ivory". Word got around fast and most anything with ivory on it went under the table or back out the door.
The next Collectors Assn news letter addressed the issue,, kind of,,only to the point that no one really understood the laws. Their suggestion was to leave the ivory home next show.

Hope they never see the Ivory gear shift knob in my truck....

Methinks there's an opportunity for deficit reduction here. Hope the "supercommittee" looks at these jobs and asks why we need them.

It appears to be the current Justice Department that has taken it to this level...(Could it be that Gibson hasn't donated to the POTUS' re-election fund?)
Here is what appears to be a press release from someone favoring Gibson's defense: FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Gov’t says wood is illegal if U.S. workers produce it
Thursday, August 25, 2011
The Justice department bullies Gibson without filing charges
The Federal Department of Justice in Washington, D.C. has suggested that the use of wood from India that is not finished by Indian workers is illegal, not because of U.S. law, but because it is the Justice Department’s interpretation of a law in India. (If the same wood from the same tree was finished by Indian workers, the material would be legal.) This action was taken without the support and consent of the government in India.
On August 24, 2011, around 8:45 a.m. CDT, agents for the federal government executed four search warrants on Gibson’s facilities in Nashville and Memphis and seized several pallets of wood, electronic files and guitars. Gibson had to cease its manufacturing operations and send workers home for the day, while armed agents executed the search warrants. Gibson has fully cooperated with the execution of the search warrants.
• Raid shut down Gibson factories and cost company money
This is the second time that federal agents have raided Gibson facilities and disrupted production – this time causing lost productivity and sales.
• Wood seized was Forest Stewardship Council Controlled
The wood the Government seized on August 24 is from a Forest Stewardship Council certified supplier and is FSC Controlled, meaning that the wood complies with the standards of the Forest Stewardship Council, which is an industry-recognized and independent, not-for-profit organization established to promote responsible management of the world’s forests. FSC Controlled Wood standards require, among other things, that the wood not be illegally harvested and not be harvested in violation of traditional and civil rights. See www.fsc.org for more information. Gibson has a long history of supporting sustainable and responsible sources of wood and has worked diligently with entities such as the Rainforest Alliance and Greenpeace to secure FSC certified supplies. The wood seized on August 24 satisfied FSC standards.
• Nearly two years later, no charges have been filed
In 2009, more than a dozen agents with automatic weapons invaded the Gibson factory in Nashville. The Government seized guitars and a substantial amount of ebony fingerboard blanks from Madagascar. To date, 1 year and 9 months later, criminal charges have NOT been filed, yet the Government still holds Gibson’s property. Gibson has obtained sworn statements and documents from the Madagascar government and these materials, which have been filed in federal court, show that the wood seized in 2009 was legally exported under Madagascar law and that no law has been violated. Gibson is attempting to have its property returned in a civil proceeding that is pending in federal court.
The Justice Department has asked the judge to stop the court case indefinitely.
• Information sought in raid was already made available
Since 2009, Gibson has fully cooperated with the Government’s investigation of wood and has provided substantial documentation regarding Gibson’s wood-buying activities over the years. Yet, the Federal Government raided Gibson’s facilities on August 24, 2011, without warning or communication of any kind. Had the Government simply communicated with Gibson, Gibson would have cooperated without having to stop its production and send workers home.
• Not about illegal logging, not about conservation, not about the environment
The U.S. Lacey Act does not directly address conservation issues but is about obeying all laws of the countries from which wood products are procured. This law reads that you are guilty if you did not observe a law even though you had no knowledge of that law in a foreign country. The U.S. Lacey Act is only applicable when a foreign law has been violated.
• Gibson is innocent and will fight to protect its rights
Gibson has complied with foreign laws and believes it is innocent of ANY wrong doing. We will fight aggressively to prove our innocence

The thing is that the laws we are talking about have been passed for the protection of plants or animals which are in trouble because of commercial exploitation. As sportsmen it seems to me that we ought to be in favor of the enforcement of these rules. The connection to "blood diamonds" is that the poaching and illegal export of these items is often based in troubled areas of the world and the profits are supporting terrorists or other 'bad guys'.

I believe the deal on ivory is that its illegal to sell or to transport across international borders unless it is documented as pre-ban. Probably, exotic wood from endangered species or populations of trees works the same way. Same thing with furs or body parts (tiger or rhino parts and bear galls come to mind) of endangered or protected species.

Enforcement as mentioned in this thread seems to be targeting commercial violations. I don't think the highway Patrol is going to bother you about your ivory gear shift, jOe. The Feds don't like gun shows anyhow and since they are commercial in nature, I would not be surprized to see enforcement efforts directed at gun show sales of doubles with ivory beads. I guess the lesson here is that if you're selling an old gun with what you know are ivory sights or enlays you better be ready to prove the age of the gun...Geo

Geo.... The camel's nose is now under the tent.......AND why wasn't this supposedly illegal wood found at the ports-of-entry?... Sounds like our U.S. Customs aren't doing their jobs and are taking the easy way out to raid US manufacturers....Sort of double standard when it comes to the whining and crying you hear about ICE raiding companies to pick up illegals instead of catching them at the borders...Where's all the outrage now?

'Fraid that might be an apt reference, Doug...Geo

I just hope they don't notice my Ivory radio knobs...

jOe, could we get a picture of that truck?...Geo

Geo. Newbern - I don't know if you read the articles or not, but your posts seem to indicate an assumption that Gibson is guilty of violating laws (forgive me if I mis-read). If that were the case I would agree with you, but the point here is that there is NO evidence that Gibson has broken any law. Some may not realize that this is the SECOND time the Feds have raided Gibson in less than 2 years. In late 2009 they raided Gibson and seized a shipment of ebony along with a group of guitars. There was no evidence then of any wrong-doing on Gibson's part, and to date the DOJ has yet to file any charges against them, YET they continue to hold the wood and instruments in confiscation and Gibson has been forced to SUE the DOJ to get their property returned. In the latest raid, it appears that no US or International laws were broken, and IF any law were broken it was an Indian law, yet it was India who cleared the shipment for sale and apparently couldn't care less. Gibson would have no way of knowing that an Indian law might have been broken (one that has NOTHING to do with protection of endangered wood, by the way), especially when the shipment was sanctioned by the Indian govt. In case it isn't known, Gibson is one of the founding members of the Alliance that was formed between Suppliers and Manufacturers to set forth the rules to be followed to protect these endangered woods and provide a sustainable resource for them (Taylor Guitars is another). In other words, they were instrumental in forming the plan to begin with.

Geo. Newbern - Your posts also seem to indicate that you don't have a problem with the Feds' raid on Gibson. Or maybe I wrongly read between the lines.

IIRC Ted Nugent plays a Gibson. Being he's an NRA member the Feds probably don't like Gibson. I have a set of ebony grips on a 1911 Colt .45 they can take from my cold dead hands.

Nah, I don't assume Gibson is guilty of anything. I do recognize spin when I see it. I do it for a living. I know I spin the hardest when I'm against the wall. Maybe they've been dealing in illegal wood maybe not. All I'm saying is there's nothing wrong with the law. It will play itself out on it's own...Geo

Any opinion on the selective application of the law. How about skirting law by regulation. I don't believe this forum has so many questions about lead bans and nontoxic load data just to save the condor.

In the short term all that's important is for the check to clear from the fine. Over the long haul, they'll take little bits at a time. Sorry to misfire on the wrong forum, but there does seem to be something wrong.

Ted Nugent doesn't have to play a Gibson to turn people off, opening his mouth is usually enough. But that is quite a leap from him to Feds to Gibson. There are exceptions to CITES and the Endangered Species Act's bans on importation of endangered woods and ivories. The ban is on possession of ivory imported after a fixed date. Documented “Pre-Convention” (aka Pre-Ban) items can be exempted from regulation. A CITES “Permit/Certificate”, issued by the country of origin’s “Management Authority” is required to export Pre-Ban ivory such as tusks, art,schrimshaw or whale teeth to another country.
There have been prosecutions resulting in huge fines regarding the possession of Sperm Whale teeth illegally obtained from Russian Whalers in the past few years. There's big business in high-end schrimshaw and some of these teeth have been falsely marketed as antique which drives the prices sky high among unknowing collectors. Ebony and Ivory..cold dead hands? Mixing songs and bumper stickers?

One more example of why we need to trim the size of the Federal Government and it's authority.

I'll let them pry this beauty from my cold dead hands. In actuality it is all perfectly legal tonewoods with paperwork. But I would never take this instrument abroad

When the government starts raiding companies or people, confiscating their property and holding it for years without charges, then does it again something is majorly wrong. If they did this to you wold you lay down and whimper like a beaten dog? No, you would growl like a dog who does not like being abused. If there are no charges then the government has to return the property, end of argument, end of case. In fact they should have to pay damages. People in power should be held accountable not excused as just doing their jobs. Concentration camp guard claimed that they were just doing their jobs. Their cases were not dismissed because of this and they were found just a guilty as those who confessed their actions. Doing your job is not a legal defense.

The raid, if needed should have been done, material checked, confiscated if needed for evidence and charges filed within a very short time. If you can not prove your case in 30, 60 or 90 days you never will. This keeping of evidence for months or years is just a smoke screen to cover up their mistake in the first place.

They had to have probable cause to get a valid search warrant under the US Constitution. What was that probable cause? Martin used wood to make guitars so they must be using illegal wood? How is that as reasonable cause? Guilt by association has never stood up in court. This is the same court system that says you can not ask a person, who does not speak English, for proof that they are here legally. Under this treatment of Martin that person would be thrown in jail and made to wait years if ever before getting a hearing. Then forced to pay thousands of dollars to get justice.

Where is due process? Where is justice? Where is the outrage against a government not protecting rights under the U.S. Constitution. Someone needs to get this type of abuse under control while there is still time.

KY Jon:
There is a solution to your problems. Convince everyone you know NEVER to vote for another Democrat again!

Too many of the Republicans are rinos.

This brings up a good question. Why do fifty some odd government agencies need to have swat teams? That's not just the law enforcement agencies, that's your run of the mill government agency. Why? Why in the world would they believe they need to bring automatic weapons to visit a guitar maker?

Interesting that the govmnt thinks it's important to enforce an obscure CITES law, but chooses not to enforce illegal immigration. I know why. Guitars don't vote

The government's minions are taught that fear and intimidation can be very effective whenever the minions' master deems it necessary. Remind you of anything? I saw it firsthand in SE Asia.