Hi guys, typical isn't it. Just finish the little Clarke and took it with my son to the clay ground, he shot great with his .410 and I put 6 cartridges through the Clarke, hit everything, fantastic! Put it back in the slip. My 45th Birthday today and I thought what a great morning with the boy given all the crap I've put my family through in the past year or so.

Anyway, get home and after a few hours remember to clean the guns, do the .410 and break the crap .410 rod cleaning kit I bought from the CLA game fair. Waste of a tenner that was that...then worse.

Clean the Clarke and notice, oh no!. A split in the left barrel. Now...this gun has just been reproofed 2 months ago..it had a bulge where the split has appeared but this was taken out and the whole barrel and 2-3 thou taken out because it was pitted...but plenty thick my barrel man told me.

Now I'm extremely depressed...see pictures. I think it's over...it's only a tiny tear but it's bulged as well...this after only 6 shells through it...how the HECK did it pass proof????

Very distressed at the moment. But I did want to show people really. I'm not aware that this is fixable and I spent many many hours restoring this pretty little gun. Oh well. Going to have my first alcoholic drink in 7 months tonight. ;(

Cheers fellas.
Regards,
Tony

Bu**er!!!!!

What a drag Tony. I'm feeling some of your pain. Well, maybe sleeving or you could have a new set of barrels made?? Sorry. Buzz

Bad news! Sleeve it?...Geo

You have my sympathy Tony.
However this brings up a point I've made before. Proofing IMO is just a measure at a particular point in time that maintains barrels survived an overcharge. IMO; and I believe this is particularly true with older doubles and certainly damascus , it tells you next to nothing about future performance.
Using 75+ year old guns is a crapshoot pure and simple. I think most of us understand this when we sign on to this hobby.
Jim

Boy that sucks... but on a positive note - at least you didn't have a catastophic failure and all that you are out is time and money. Surgeries/rehab and funerals are much more expensive and time consuming. It's hard to look at your pride and joy with a split and still feel blessed - but you should. Could have been far worse.

Yes, definately agree. Could have been worse. And you know what, it's only my time, I spent £350 on this gun total and 250 was for the barrels to be fixed and re-proofed....so I'm counting lucky stars really...

On to the next one...!

T

Glad no one was hurt....just more reason to stay away from guns with pitted barrels.

guns are replaceable body parts are not. im glad your well
seven could have been an unlucky number. even a nice set of 4-10
briley tubes are not a bad idea. my best bob

jOe: Tony mentioned there had been a repaired bulge at the fault area. I believe with a bulge the molecular structure of the metal is permanently and forever changed and thus weakened despite the repair. I think this is the root of the problem rather than pits and barrel honing IMHO.

well this is opportunity knocking you can learn to re-sleev it.that is terrible after all that work.i bought a c. boswell from a dealer it had loose ribs when i took the ribs off the whole barrels fell a part the dealer told me to screw myself because i worked on it .well just an opportunity to learn mc

Be grateful you have your fingers. I shoot damascus but won't go near ones with bulges or dents that have been raised.

Hard to tell from the pics, but it looks very very thin in one picture. Perhaps the bulge was still a little high after the attempt to cold form it down and the repairer filed it to make it disappear?

I'd have no problem sleeving it to address the issue. Once it's sleeved it's gonna be good to go, on the barrels anyway. You'll rest easy knowing the barrels are of a known thickness.

The value of the gun dictates it isn't worth sleeving I think. I think Buzz is bang on. Once a bulge always a bulge. I hadn't considered it at the time but it's true. I'm going to see my barrel man anyway tomorrow to see what he says. It'll look nice on the wall though. Unless I can get it sleeved for 3-400 quid it isnt worth doing I think. I'm not sure if one can put a single tube in place of the old one?

And my BIG question still is...HOW DID this gun pass a full Birmingham proof test 2 months ago?!

Cheers
T

Hi Tony I have seen a few £500 sleeving jobs recently but I would not bother they were pretty grim,poor rib work badly struck up etc, at least it did not blow completely and you are in one piece.

So sad. It was a pretty gun. Glad you and everyone else are unhurt.

I dunno whether sleeving is the way to go or just plain old rebarrelling using the existing for a monobloc. I know, someone's going to get the pitchfork and torches crowd pic and plant it here, too, but if it were me I'd go the whole distance and just get the barrels replaced. They both should be considered compromised - one empirically proven and the other guilty by association.

Of course, in rebarrelling, you might be able to go to 24 or (better) 28 ga barrels....

As to how it passed proof? That's a good question to be posed in a grave-faced sitdown and show-and-tell at the proof house.

Re-barreling over here is crazy money. It was suggested to me 6K. The gun aint worth 2K even if it had good barrels. So, it's either sleeving or leaving it. Having said that I don't know if the crack is to far back for sleeving either.

Will reveal all once I sit down with my barrel man tomorrow to see what he thinks and in particular how the heck this came "flying" through proof...

T

Tony,
It's far enough forward for sleeving. All you need to sleeve is a good few inches from the breach.

As to how it happened to pass proof, it was marginally strong enough and the proof load imparted what was likely the fatal stress spike but it didn't show. Fatigue failures are not visually detectable nor are they detectable by common magnaflux, dye penetrant, or ultrasonic inspection methods.

Seems a fair explanation Chuck. Thanks.
T

I would really, really, really, really like to know the wall thickness at and near the split. How far from the breech is it?

Sorry for your disappointment.

Best,

Mike

Will get it measured tomorrow. Its about just where the forcing cone is in the breech.

T

Very sad to be sure Tony,but I'm so very glad you and the lad came away unscathed ...to be quite honest I think after a bit you'll see this as another challenge

Seems to me that a feller ought to regard any sign of dents or bulges within 12" of the breech as a deal killer. In front of that pressures have dropped so much that it is not that much of an issue. Bulges though, for me in any part of the barrel are deal killers.

Thanks!

Mike

What a shame but as others have said, it could have been much worse.

I like the idea of sleeving for 28ga. Seems like it would be a beautiful little 28. I wonder if you could have your microwelder weld up the crack, dress it and then sleeve it??

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Quote:
"And my BIG question still is...HOW DID this gun pass a full Birmingham proof test 2 months ago?!"

I am certainly no expert on proofing and I'm sort of repeating what I stated earlier in this thread. From my understanding proofing is nothing more that a snapshot in time and verification that a set of barrels at that time withstood a proscribed overload.
This to me tells you exactly NOTHING about their performance in the future particularly when it involves a decades old firearm.
Also keep in mind that any real understanding of metallurgy is a relative recent phenomon and it's doubtful that anyone knows the actual metellugerical makeup of your guns barrels.
Again; and this is of course my opinion; shooting older guns is a crapshoot. You are running a risk albiet a minimal risk if you follow the generally accepted procedures when using classic guns but you must be willing to accept the consequences when something like this occurs.
I think I can say we are all thankful you wern't hurt.
Jim

Tony you ever saw a table lamp made from a hammer gun ?....It would make a nice looking one.

Especially older fluid steel barreled guns.

This is a good example of something that needs to be put away for whatever period of time may be necessary until perhaps something comes along that appears to be a decent solution. Rushing into a quick fix will be expensive.

I surely wouldn't get in any hurry about a fix. Just put the gun away for awhile, maybe show it now and then as an example of what can happen. Move on to something else and let this one just be forgotten for a while.
JR

Chuck,

I believe you would be more familiar with fatigue failures than most of us.



Pete

TIG it and then put a short set of Briley 28 tubes in it??
bill

I have a Baker Batavia with a cracked barrel and have fitted Briley tubes to mine in 28 gauge, What a wonderful way to restore one to shooting
Mike

Tony, truly sad. It is a shame something like this happened, but as stated, everyone is safe. How it passed proof and nothing happened is a good one.

I firmly believe that a bulge is bad news, and yes they can be repaired, but who knows if the metal went back to the same area. In a dent, either from bumping it against something sharp, or however else they happen, the metal isn't streched like it is with a bulge.
I think the only way to tell if it is safe, would be an x-ray

Tony, with all you have been though, this is nothing more than a small set back. You have done some great work and this will happen sooner or later. Your health is more important so relax and go on to the next project. As people have mentioned, fix the rip and put 28 ga. tubes in and you will still have a great gun. Glad nothing else happened to you. Frank

This is great advice. I once did a complete restoration on a 12 ga. damascus gun, which included a complete barrel refinish. A week or so later I noted a "leak" of some fluid into the left bore, 7 in. from the breech. I was devastated - as in your case, weeks and weeks of my hard labor had produced a beautiful gun that I was proud of, but within days of completion it was all negated by the discovery of an unsound barrel (which measured very favorably in wall thickness, by the way). I considered all the options, and found none palatable. So, I took the advice that John gave, and just put the gun up, and waited for a solution to present itself. In the meantime, I had a friend who became pretty proficient at re-laying ribs, so after a while, we stripped the ribs off of this gun. I expected to find rust and corrosion running rampant underneath the ribs. Instead, we discovered a single pinhole with no corrosion, that had probably been there since it was manufactured. The only reason it was discovered was because of the refinishing process. To repair, we gas-welded the pinhole closed, then re-layed the ribs. I refinished them (again), and have shot the living crap out of that gun ever since. The repair cost me practically nothing except a little in materials.

You may not be quite as lucky as me, but I still think it's a great idea to wait it out until a solution presents itself. In the meantime, I like the idea of 28 ga. tubes as a temporary solution the best. Good luck!

OK I like the Briley tubes idea? How do I do it and go about it? Do I send them the gun or just the barrels? I see their website and prices. $695 to do a 20 gauge to 28 guage? Does that sound right? I presume I need to get it re-proofed over here afterwards.

If anyone could advise that would be wonderful. Many thanks for all of the comments. Clearly being safe after this is the most important thing.

Cheers
T

OK I'm getting a bit excited. I might be able to convert this gun? I'm glad I've seen this before I pop off to my barrel man. This page here? http://www.briley.com/companiondrop-intubesets.aspx is this what we are talking about. Do we think it simple enough for me to put these in myself. Do the 28 guage tubes just slide into my 20 bore Clarke as shown in the video on the Briley site?

Cheers
T

Luckily nobody was hurt, could have been terrible. Looks like it will be a wall hanger Tony, a very pretty one at that!

Re the rebarrelling or tube sets or whatever path to follow going forward, the advice to put it up and move to another project for a while is quite sound advice. You have the gun and not rushing into anything in particular but letting the solution unfold will turn out for the best. Take the time to work on another project while researching how to fix the problem.

I've never had dealings with Briley, but I'll suspect they (or any dealer in tubesets or such) will decline to put their hands on any set of barrels with a(n unrepaired) hole in them.

Waiting a bit may be good advise

But you can do research

The companion tubes will work just fine on standard chambered guns.

What are the chamber lengths on the Clarke?

You may have to open up the chokes to get the tubes to slide in snugly

If you want to do more research on things look up

carrier barrels for tube sets

This would kind of be what you would be doing.

The tubes sets hold all the pressure.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=39284&page=1

Mike

Tony, Glad no one was hurt. This posting was a great excercise in problem solving. Creative minds lurk in this forum. I would not have thought of the tubes or the lamp . Randy

Were it mine, the FIRST thing I would do is get it to the Birmingham Proof House for a proper accident investigation. They will be able to tell you if it's a scrapper and, perhaps, provide a possible cause of the failure. Per its website:

"Many times a year weapons are sent to the Proof House to determine why they were damaged whilst in use and the staff will, on the customer’s behalf,examine such weapons and provide expert advice, backed up by photographs and related report on the most likely potential causes of failure. Such a service has proved to be of extreme importance in relation to later insurance claims."

Go with your head and not your heart.

Thanks Vic, makes sense, given they saw and proofed the gun two weeks ago. I'll contact them then decide after we see what they say...no real rush.

T

Some time ago, I bought an AE Fox, 16 bore. After shooting it a few times, I noticed "soot" on the Barrel. I took it back to the shop I purchased it from and he examined it. It had been "repaired" at some point in time. My money was refunded and in front of my very eyes, the barrels were cut into pieces on a chop saw. A good guy to do business with..

Tony, the 'Companion' tubes are (as far as I can tell) a 12 ga only product. They are a non-fitted alternative to more expensive fitted small gauge tubes.

Briley can no doubt fit a tube or liner, as can probably Teague on your side of the pond.

The bad news, of course, is that tubes make the barrel set quite a bit heavier and are sure to change the dynamics of the gun significantly.

Unhappy incident.

As someone stated earlier, Briley would not fit tubes to a damaged barrel. The Briley tubes rely on the barrels for support in the chamber area.

A lamp it is then!

Will stick in the safe for memories.

T

Tony: If this were my little gun and I put forth such effort as you did I would take a little loss and come up with 500 quid and get the darling sleeved. You have made that gun too nice to let her go to waste IMHO. If, on the other hand you fixed her up initially just to make money, then it would be another matter and I'd just let her go too.

I've only seen one but it looked sharp

These are in 410

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=243913625

http://www.briley.com/companiondrop-in410boretubesetstandardweight.aspx

I apologize for bringing this up again. I think you could salvage some good out of this discouraging turn of events. There have been several threads on here about minimum wall thicknesses. The wall thickness may have been the culprit. I understand the bulge had been repaired but I think we could know more if the wall thickness in the area of the split was 0.120" or 0.050". Since the split is at the end of the chamber I think that could be very informative.

The good being salvaged is of course more knowledge for the gun collectors here.

Best,

Mike

I'm going to get a full proof house report and will share with all.

Good enough for you Mike?

T

I've just spoken to the proof house who said drop it in next week (I'm in Price street again anyway) and they'll get back to me with a full report in ....wait for it....6 months!!!

Jees. Now I'm faced with that and I'm not sure what I'll gain from the report other than it's buggered...or getting new barrels or lining sorted somehow.

Cheers

T

Mate I read this whole thread this morning I feel so bad that this happened, you had put to so much work into it. I echo others comments about you still having your fingers etc... but I hope its not too long until the little Clarke is up and working again, however you choose to do that.

Thanks Roy. But actually I'm putting it down to experience...AND it still gave me more experience with the colour case hardening process and everything else I continue to strive to perfect in my restoring.

Joe made a fair point. Don't risk buying a gun with a bulge in it...ESPECIALLY right next to the forcing cones...further up where there is less pressure is slightly less risky...but none-the-less. I still have my fingers etc...

Cheers

T

Here's one I had a couple of years ago. I bought it with just the right barrel one thou. out of proof. It was made by the Midland Gun Co. but had another's name on the rib. I good sturdy hammer gun, as most Midlands were, so I made the purchase and had it prepared for proof and sent off. The chambers were lengthened to 2 3/4" as the proof load is now the same as for the 2 1/2" chamber. The gun passed and I had it back. I shot maybe 50 rounds through it; nothing heavy, then a friend I knew wanted to buy a hammer gun. I thought this ideal as it had a top lever, recent proof and long chambers. He fired about 40 rounds at clays on two separate occasions again using light loads and then this happened:



The Gunsmith who worked on it was a friend of mine and also one of the Guardians at the Proof House so a report was done a little quicker. Their conclusion was that it had been fired with a slight obstruction such as a piece of wadding which had weakened it with a slight bulge and then it had failed upon a later firing. I had sold the gun at the price that it stood me at and made no profit. The gun was o.k. when I sold it but I believe my friend's account of what had happened. Barrel wall thickness at the site of the split was avout 22 thou.; steel barrels and not damascus. Lagopus.....

Lagopus:
This looks like it possibly split along a seam as there is no raggedness apparent whatsoever??
Jim

How did your friend's hands and body come out of this?

Well, this will give you time to let whatever solution this gun is supposed to have, ripen and reveal itself to you.

Dave: Yep.

Lagopus...bloody hell. Was your mate OK?

T

Lagopus:

Barrel walls look very thin to me, in your photo.........?.............Probably honed a few times......?......

Cheers,

No injury at all. It took someone else to point out what had happened just before he fired another shot. There was a slight chip out of the forend and the split starts just where the forend stops. The split does look straight as though along a seam but barrels are not made in that way. I wonder if there was a flaw in the steel that was the weak link for it to burst in that way but why did it not fail at the proof firing stage when a two charges at around 70% higher than normal were used? It was the Proof report that indicated the thickness at 22 thou at the point it failed. The barrels now reside in a local gunshop as a warning to check barrels for obstruction. That is the first time I have ever seen anything like that happen. Lagopus.....

Last time I was in, one of the "local" gunshops here in Maine, Wildwood, had a formerly-nice set of Parker (Vulcan) barrels similarly blown apart, also on display. And another shop had an Italian Carcano carbine that had blown open, as an advertisement against buying cheap surplus rifles.

I have a Parker VH 12 ga. that has a 4" hole in the right barrel about 6" from the breach. The guy I bought it from said he was shooting with his daughter with a 20 ga. and did not see he still had a 20 ga. shell in his pocket when he started to shoot this Parker 12 ga.. You know what happened. A 20 in front of a 12. He did lose the top of one finger and no one else was hurt. Now I am looking for a barrel for this gun. It is very nice but the barrels. Frank

Another fine example of vintage fluid steel...

Gun is off to the proof house Wednesday after I'd spoken with them...they said don't expect it back for 6 months....well let's see what they say!

T

Interesting. I wonder what they'll say.

Any chance they'll discover they did something wrong?

Just wondering how objective their analysis will be...

Hope you're feeling well. Keep the great projects coming.

OWD

I doubt they will accept any blame personally.

I'm feeling good but unfit at the moment!:) Thanks for asking.

PET scan in a few weeks...fingers crossed..

T

Just got a response from Briley:

"Companions are not an option for your 20ga gun, so we will have to build the custom fitted tubes. They run $695 with 4 flush chokes of your choice. Please send us the barrels for inspection and we will let you know if this is possible 100% for sure.

Now I've asked if they want me to send it broken or welded with the bulge taken out...trying not to have to send the barrels over twice....views?

T

I pressume she means the chokes will stick out of the end? Which isn't going to look very right is it..

Fix the barrels first....the chokes will be flush. When installed you won't be able to really tell the tubes are in the gun.

I'd spend a little more and go with the Titanium tubes (because of the weight) and I'd also order an extra choke tube wrench.

ps...I was told that the tubes alone will hold the pressure of a shotgun shell.

OK cheers...did wonder. I'll talk to them some more but it looks like this little gun just might be reprieved...

T

I see only one problem with patching the barrel and putting Briley tubes in it...somewhere down the road someone might take the Brileys out and fire the gun with high pressure 20 ga. ammo and it could blow up in their face.

I still think the lamp is a better choice and would see more use...the two hammer gun lamps I saw were mounted up right on a wooden plaque, the barrels were chopped about 5 or 6 inches up from the breach and the hidden electrical cord ran through the gun.

The guy had two of them for sale....I wish now I had bought one or both of them.

Yeah, got any pictures, I'm torn with this really am...I've got plenty of new projects..maybe the best thing here is to really put it down to experience and make a lamp.

T

Tony: This might be a dumb idea but have you thought about trying to sleeve that gun yourself? As skilled as you are I bet you could do it yourself and learn new procedure at the same time. Even if you don't do it yourself, it doesn't sound like sleeving would cost much more than a set of Briley tubes??

tony: id put it away and sometime down the road
you will come up with the proper solution
when you least expect it and no thought of
the gun at the time. dont be impulsive your to
smart for that.

Yep. I've decided to give it to the proof house tomorrow to see what they come up with. For now it's night night for the gun...but who knows when it returns.

Cheers

T

For hOjO

Dr. Drew, I have the matching lamp on my desk. Yours is the only other one I've ever seen. Do you happen to have any background info?

Is that a full sized gun? Looks too small.

T

I think that's a replica....the ones I saw were similar.

Joe, The lamp that Drew posted is a brass miniature. Maybe 20 inches. Did anyone notice the Parker Bros style hinge pin? I guess it could have been modeled after an early Fox pin gun or I've seen that hinge pin on an early Stevens as well.

Does anyone know where (distance from muzzle) the bulge and crack were in the Clarke?

Interesting point that Buzz makes that repairing a bulge may weaken the strength of the barrel at that point. Thanks again for all of the good comments.

This is from page three.

I truly miss Tony. In many ways he was the most interesting man on this board. Fearless in trying things, easily meeting men in the trade and getting information from them to further his gun education. We are diminished by his early loss. Hope his family are doing well.

Me, too, Jon. And Doug (PA24), a good friend and one of Tony's mentors.

SRH