I found this post on Gunbroker. Is the market lookng up?

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=241466032

Rapidfire

I am relieved it didn't sell. I am waiting and hoping for them to lower the price to $900,000

Wow. No pictures..? This gun must have a serious pedigree!

Too precious to have pictures taken of it. It's like one of those society matrons who are mortified (and get hell raised at the papers) if their names appear in the papers on any occasion other than their birth, maybe their debut, wedding, wedding of their children, and death.

But that gun is surely too good for you and me.

I wish he just had a $ 1,000,000.00 buy now price. I dont want to get in a bidding war.

Brian, even if you could get it for 1 mill you would still have to pay the shipping.

Looks like a little "can't sell my gun" frustration. A lot of that going around lately. Been there myself. Here are a couple previous posts of the same gun.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=241070122

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=241261044

SxS

If you had to pay to list on GunBroker most of the problems with the site would go away. Charge .25 or .50 per listing and most sellers would stop listing the same guns for years at prices which will never be paid or with reserves that are too high. Some of the sellers have fifty to a hundred guns listed for years on end. It just clogs up the site so that you can not see anything for the clutter.

The seller noted above has a decent 20 that he can not sell. It is one item in four pages of Fox guns. Many of them have been listed for months or even years. Finding one decent gun in that mess is like trying to carry on a conversation with one person on a party line with a thousand people all talking at the same time.

The real wonder is that the site sells any guns at all. They almost have to be listed as no reserve guns and the price must invite all the bargian bidders to bid hoping to steal a gun. I bet most of the guns sold are no reserve guns. We all have seen the same guns listed for years on GB and just skip them when we look at the site. I think that they should have a "first time" listed page for all gun types. At least then the old clutter would be off to the side.

They need to hire jOe to police the site and clear up the clutter.......!.........


This Savage Sterly is way over priced and I'm sure the seller is frustrated........There are nice Philly Sterly 20's listed for less......

It's the old story that something is worth what a willing seller and a willing buyer will agree to it being worth.

In this instance, like so many others on GB, the seller has an overly high opinion of what his gun is worth, and he's left waiting ... and waiting ... and waiting for someone to become that willing buyer at his price.

I can think of easily a dozen guns on GB that I like and might buy but for the fact that the seller has set an impossibly high starting price for them and I'm not willing to pay that. And those guns have been there well over two years with no downward movement in their listing price (and even the occasional upward move - go figure).

It winds up looking not much different from trolling the big lake at an arbitrary depth and hoping to catch a fish, rather than figuring out where the fish are at this time and going after them. While there might be the occasional buyer who will bite at these prices - i.e., the troller might catch the odd, random fish - the vast majority are not anywhere in the neighborhood and aren't paying attention to the offer. We buyers should not curse the sellers for their inattention to what we might be interested in. (If you really wanted that gun, you'd buy it at the seller's asking price and we wouldn't be having this discussion.) After all, that would be like the fish being angry at the fisherman for not doing enough to catch the fish. Rather, we should recognize that when the sellers get hungry enough, they'll suss out that they have to do something they haven't been doing to get us to bite.

Maybe if/when enough of the sellers get around to reading this thread and see/hear us laughing at them and their prices, they might get real with them.

Bob's million dollar starting price did get this discussion going, and that means exposure for his gun. Someone may see it because of this thread, and offer him a reasonable price. Sounds like good marketing.

I'm wondering if that ad in GB is a spoof and put in by someone who doesn't own the gun. Could be wrong, but wasn't that gun for sale on 2XGunshop a while back?

It's from a previous BBS sale site listing.....which got into the direction (mostly down) of current market pricing, conversations getting a little heated at times.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=229972#Post229972

21

There is a lister on auctionarms who starts every gun at a penny with no reserve and sells every gun he puts on there. Some of his guns are really nice collector guns. Hundreds of buyers check his ads every week for new items. Most of us know who he is and wish some of the other sellers would take a hint from him.

Would that be the guy who calls himself "Jack the dog"? B/c he has a couple nice sxs guns up there now - that M21 Duck has started a bidding war....

There are a couple AuctionArms sellers who do just that, but they are mostly into consignment gun sales, whereas they don't have to invest a nickel in the guns. They sell guns shipped to them at consignee's (original owner's) expense and enjoy a 15% consignment fee profit (minus a small auction fee) no matter what it sells for. Unfortunately, dealers who have to buy everything that they sell, have a "cost" they must deal with.
Imagine how well a car dealer could do under the same consignment conditions!!

SxS

Normally, I only look at the guns on Gunbroker that draw bids. I have bought a couple of guns that were listed otherwise and I think I got them at a bargain simply because serious buyers ignore the prepriced or reserve priced guns.

If I sell on GB, I start a .01 with no reserve and almost always feel the gun brought what it was worth. I always put a counter on the ad and rarely list a gun that doesn't get 1,000 looks. If a gun gets 1,000 looks and sells for less that I thought it should, it tells me I thought it waa worth more than it really was.

Simple

Dick Jones. you win the contest. You have uncovered the mystery of internet gun selling. You are absolutely right. If 1000 people look at your junk and no one bids, then your junk is truly junk. Of course, guys like Jackthedog have found a way to get 1000 people to look at his junk. Lucky for us, much of what Jackthedog lists is not junk.

SxS, I have a hard time understanding what you are saying. Are you saying that our Auctionarms guy is making too much on his transactions? If he makes a certain percentage on his sales, it is well earned because he gets people to LOOK at his offerings, hundreds of people. He has earned his audience and his consignors should be happy, even if they are disappointed with the bottom line. If they don't get the buck, it is because they are trying to sell things that just don't sell. I would consign with this guy.

I'll try to explain it so anyone can understand. Say, as a dealer, I buy a shotgun at a gun show for $800. I take it to my gun shop and list on Gunbroker with a $1000 reserve. If I sell it at a $1000, I will make about $150 profit after gas,gun show entrance fees,time and auction fees. If it doesn't sell in six months I lower the price to $700 and finally sell it, but lose about $150.
Now the consignment seller "pays nothing" for the same gun and puts it on Auction Arms with a .01 starting bid and the same gun sells for $700. He makes 15% gross profit or $105. After auction fees he pockets about $80 or $90. The consignment seller will always make a profit!
If you decide to send the consignment seller one of your classic doubles that you bought 6 years ago for $3000 and he sells it on today's market for $2500. You lose $500 in market value and the dealer's 15% commission (total loss of $875) and a dearly missed shotgun. You will net $2125 for your consigned shotgun. The consignment dealer makes $375 gross profit on your loss on a gun which he had in his possession for two weeks or so and doesn't care a thing about it. You surely can understand the difference!

SxS

The seller is from Northridge CA. With that in mind he is probably still suffering from post earthquake syndrome. You know; The condition where $1,000 and $1,000,000 look the same and it's probably due to seismic jitter!!
Oh: And I just returned fom the land of fruits and nuts and anything is possible out there!
Jim

The other side of the coin, though, is that the consignment seller who starts his auctions at a penny and no reserve does provide a pair of useful services: he moves product and his auctions do provide an empirical value for a particular gun, thus providing data which help establish (or confirm) what the market value for that make, model and caliber is.

The problem of deducing what the value is, is not so great in more common guns say, for example, a Remington 870 or a Winchester 94. There's a lot of them in all sorts of condition and caliber and determining a good starting price is relatively easy. On the other hand, the value of an obscure European maker's old sxs (or a Winchester M21 Duck) is harder to determine from comparable sales, because there just are not that many comparables. That, in turn, is a function of there being fewer of that gun to begin with and, perhaps more importantly, fewer people interested in buying that gun. In that regard, then, the consignment seller's penny-no reserve auction will shake out some value and move the gun. There are contexts where moving the gun is a prime consideration, say, e.g., closing out an estate.

It might be unfair to the seller, who might take a loss, but one has to determine whether one is into guns and shooting to be buying and selling guns at a profit, or because you like shooting and guns. If it's P&L, then getting attached to a favorite gun and getting bent out of shape over taking a loss and not having a favorite gun is irrelevant. Said another way, you have to decide whether you're in this for profit or fun.

I don't care if you're into "liking, collecting and shooting guns" or "in it for profit", a loss is a loss and it's not FUN! Just ask the $1,000,000 gun guy that was the basis of this post and he'll explain it to you.

SxS

The market for SxS shotguns will continue to diminish as time goes by. Just look around and observe how many young guys looks for SxS shotguns at local shops. Where I frequent only older retired guys are interested in them. The demise of this type of gun will be accelerated if there is comprehensive and far reaching non-tox shot mandate.

This fellow in California rarely sells a gun under its retail value because hundreds of people look at his offerings every day. He isn't shamming the buyers with reserves and high starting prices. He is selling these guns at their true market price, something other dealers and individual sellers are not doing. The people who consign guns to him do not expect to get retail for their guns. That is why they consign them to that gentleman. He writes great descriptions, takes good pictures, and sells every gun he advertises. Criticize him all you want. I wish he were situated near my home so he could sell my guns.

I bought this gun a couple of months ago while I was reading the MACINTOSH book on Foxes. A very nicely preserved 20 gauge with shootable dimensions.

Chokes measure out to .035 and .021, Extra Full/Imp Mod. Kind of tightly choked for a Skeet Gun.
After extensive patterning at 20 (18 inch patterns at 22 yards), 25, 30, 35, 40, and 45 yards, and a dozen rounds of Skeet using RST Lite 9's and Spreaders, I've played with pitch and LOP using shims and washers as well as strap on pads, high gun, low gun, you name it. After all this and considering my inability to sell this riflechoked double, I've made an appointment with one of the finer gunsmiths on the west coast to have the chokes opened to something more Quail friendly. I'm thinking this Fox could soon be wearing chokes more closely resembling Mod/IC .016/.009

$2,499 shipped insured saves this vintage double from the choke reamer.

p.s. I may not sell a lot at $1,000,000 but it wouldn't take very many sales before I could retire.

First thing I'd do would be to clean out all BC's.

The only people I see looking at SxSs in local shops are those who are looking for "sleeper" guns - used, often on consignment and very underpriced.

You'll find brisk SxS activity, both browsing and sales, at serious places such as William Larkin Moore, G&H, NECG, Robin Hollow and several other upmarket places.

SxSs can be steel-compatible and many are.

Pumps and autoloaders will always outsell SxSs just as Fords will outsell Jags.

A variation on this magazine cover theme, except no dogs will be harmed. Fear the grim reamer.

Time is a big factor in negotiations, in selling guns it's how fast do you want to sell it?

You want it gone right now and need the cash? it's going to price low.

You want top dollar, it's going to take time to find that right buyer. ESPECIALLY in high dollar SxS's, the market is much smaller.

You still can't get more than what's it's worth (by definition) but you can get the top of the range if you are willing to wait.

I think the marketplace has a lot to do with how fast something sells also. You want to sell a $400 gun, you can sell it 2 days, you want to sell a four thousand dollar gun, it's going to take time, there's just less market for a four thousand dollar gun (of any type) and fewer possible buyers.

these are all generalities of course. A well priced well shown ten thousand dollar gun can sell in one day if the right person walks in. It's just that the chance of that is less.

and
EVERYTHING is negotiable.

My thoughts exactly!

Very unfortunate. Ruins the gun for many of us, and narrows your market even further.

Might as well bob the barrels off...

Any of the "...many of you..." are welcome to step in if you feel that this gun is for you and needs to remain in "Rifle tight" constriction.
I've tried to do the responsible, vintage doubles conservator thing but to no avail. It might just be the Universe telling me Light Mod./Improved Skeet.

Bob, I do not have nor do I expect a vote. I have an opinion, and I have stated it. I don't like guns with open chokes because they don't work well for my type of hunting. I wouldn't open up a perfectly good field gun just to improve my skeet scores or to kill more planted quail. When I hunt wild quail in CA and AZ, tight chokes are the ticket. Opening the chokes does narrow your potential buyer pool, because you can never put the metal back into those muzzles.

Maybe the Universe was whispering Improved Mod/Improved Skeet (.017/.007) and I simply misheard it.

No one should ever open a classic shotgun choke. For one you are only the "temporary" owner and you'll ruin the shotgun for the next buyer. If you can't change the shot pattern with spreader loads or Polywad double-wides or just let the bird go out further, like I do, buy another shotgun with the chokes you desire. If you're still not happy, buy a shotgun with screw in chokes and leave the remaining few untouched classics alone!

21

He's enjoying the attention too much.

Time to leave him and his soon-to-be wrecked Sterly alone.

Didn't most of the "Vintage Classics" that were not built for custom orders leave the factory choked impossibly tight and tighter with the understanding that the guns' new owner would choke the gun as he determined necessary for its' intended use? Were custom ordered guns with custom specified chokes of less than Full and Full "ruined" at the factory?

$2499 shipped insured and you can be the new guardian of this fine Fox.
Put it in your gun museum and charge the folks $1.25 to see the last "Vintage Classic" with original chokes, er you think??

Let's not get testy about shotgun chokes. It's Bob's gun and he can do whatever he wants with it, right or wrong. For me, it's not so much a matter of originality as it is functionality. I don't buy or shoot guns with open chokes, and way too many of the older guns seem to have been opened or shortened by guys who decided to do that to their guns. Problem is, there are getting to be fewer and fewer old doubles, especially small bores, with the tight chokes that God intended them to have. Fortunately, I have a few small bore Parkers with tight chokes, and my one Sterly is Full and Fuller, so I don't need Bob's gun. Otherwise I'd be seriously tempted, because it is a nice example and still (for now) has proper chokes.

Tempted at $2499? Not me, not for a Utica Sterly, unless it was an ejector gun in very high condition. There's lots of Sterlys out there with unmolested chokes. In fact, I see a whole lot more of them with original chokes than otherwise. But, maybe I'm just lucky.

SRH

I have it on good authority (the Pope) that Gods' intention for this particular Sterlingworth may have been in fact Mod/IC and that some mere mortal in Utica screwed things up.

With all of this Papal provinance just now coming to light, do you think this gun will be more valuable??
The new ad could read, "For Sale, The Popes' Sterlingworth, Devine Chokes".

If somehow, the chokes on this gun could be opened without having been touched by the hand of man,
I could have The Immaculate Constriction.

Those tight-as-a-frogs-a$$ chokes were designed for shells with cardboard wads that needed all the choke they could get to deliver a decent pattern at 40 yards. As far as I can see, Bob improved the chokes on his gun, at least for the upland hunting I like to do. To me overly tight chokes are a PITA, one more thing I have to spend money on to make the gun more suitable for my needs.
Good for you Bob!
Steve

totally agree
It's 2011, not 1932, shotgun ammo is mighty impressive today.
It's a MUCH more usable and sellable gun with it opened up to reasonable specs.

Stan, you are dead on........I've got three Philly Sterly's, 12,16 and 20 all with the factory original Modified and Full chokes and with the original short chambers.....and all Callahan lettered as such....... Of course I only hunt wild birds.....in country where you can see more than 50 feet.

No Savage wannabe's for me...... He should go ahead and butcher it up, no loss....cut the stock and add a fat recoil pad while you're at it...........

Guys that like vintage stuff go to great length not to alter chokes like spreader shot, cube shot, discus shot, soft shot with felt wad in paper case,.....It is 2011 yet double guns with 25" and 26" barrels sell like out of date bread. Why is that? Heck, they can't all be 6'5" and shooting black powder shells!
I give you another example. Few years ago I looked at early 50s model 70 with professionally installed claw mounts. The scope was railed x56 Kaps unit (VERY good optics). The mounts and optics were well above anything Winchester factory could ever hope to provide yet local folks treated it like it was coated with MERSA. I would have bought it if it was something other then .270 Winchester.

You guys that like the vintage guns don't have much to worry about from me. I've had my fill of guns with 3-3.5" DAH. I sold them all over the past few years and now I look for guns I can shoot without having to totally alter my shooting style. British and Continental guns are what draw my attention these days.
Steve

Many/most of Remington 1894's and 1900's that I see for sale are choked F&F. As-is they aren't good for much except trap shooting, turkey hunting, or maybe waterfowl with $3 bismuth shells.

I've opened the chokes on mine, and now use it for upland birds, and sporting clays.

gold40

I'd be tempted, but not at that price. I think the market has already spoken re the current asking price. All this discussion and attention and exposure, and it's still not sold.

Even Attila The Nun should find that comment amusing.

Open chokes just don't work in the desert.

My Philadelphia Sterlingworth came from the factory with 28" barrels chocked modified and full. I've successfully hunted everything from Quail to Ducks and Geese to Deer with it and have never seen any reason to change.
Jim

The Pope has already taken a stand on dealing with those who would molest small Sterlingworths.

Please do not "adalturate" those American Stelingworths. Just hunt in more open spaces and when a bird flushes sing Dixie or Yankee Doodle prior to taking the shot. One,....two,....three,....,four,....BANG.

$1999