A friend of mine would like for me to sell a couple of his guns including the nicely engraved “MADE IN BELGIUM" Pieper double as pictured below. He doesn’t get to gun shows anymore and doesn’t do computers, so I’m trying to find out what a fair selling price would be.
It’s a 12 gauge with 29 5/8”, 75 cm "BAVARD" steel barrels (for “SMOKELESS POWDER”) choked full and full with nice bores. Gun weighs a light 6 3/4 pounds, has a 14” stock and nice shooting dimensions and skeleton butt plate.
Looks to have most of its original finish but has a small hole near the toe of the stock from the missing swivel. There is the typical swivel attached to the bottom rib.
See the pictures for more detail. More pix available.
Thanks in advance for any and all opinions offered.

Jolly

Is that hole in the top lever original?

With the proviso that it is hard to make a good assessment of condition from photos and with no first hand knowledge of the condition of the barrels, I would hazard a guess in the $1200 to $1500 range, subject to actual knowledge of condition.

But mine's just one opinion. I'm basing mine on my own limited experience with Piepers and what I've paid for them over the last five years (4 boxlocks and a sidelock) as well as what I have actually paid for a couple of sidelocks from other not well known continental makers in the last year.

I saw a VERY similar Pieper move a little more than a year ago for I think just under $2000. It seemed to be in substantially better condition than this one. Wood finish much better (according to photos) and again, while hard to tell from photos, the engraving seemed crisper (I suppose it could be the lighting in the photo). Checked the serial numbers...close but different.

Can anyone date this gun. I'm terrible at it, even when I'm holding the gun, looking at the flats and referencing proofs from my books.

Regards,

James

I have a Belgian SLE with the lower case "e"...can't find my list , but believe it to be 1926...or perhaps 1929....but I think '26
Franc

The barrels weighed 3.39 lbs at time of proof. The gun has the date stamp of 1926 (very good Franc). It is nitro proofed.

The gun was made by the Henri Pieper company. It looks very much like the Model 415 produced by A.E.P. (a name used for a short time after Pieper's death) about 20 years earlier. Bayard was a trade name used by the Pieper company for many of their guns.

I have seen this extensive engraving on other Pieper guns, but do not recall seeing a pierced lever before.

There is more about Pieper and his Bayard trade mark here:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post164088

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbt...true#Post146477

I can remember a number of discussions about the origins of "Bayard". Turns out, Henri lived on Rue de Bayard in Liege.

Pete

Thanks Pete and Franc for getting the date down for me. Can't believe how bad I am at that.

Pete, the gun that was up for auction at RIA last winter had the same pierced top lever and very similar game scenes, as far as I can tell from the photos. But it was a different gun.
Regards,

James

I would think $750 to 1000 to be a more realistic price to sell this gun. The market for doubles seems to be in the doldrums now, and this maker is a hard sell in any market as it is not well known as a quality maker, whatever the quality of this particular gun. Most of the Pieper production was marketed as middle market quality. Most of the ones I have seen were "mass produced" in an era when that was not necessarily a good thing. It is not a Janssen, Bury or even a Defourney, or one of the other high quality Belgian makers.

Thanks for your input and comments on my friends gun.

I agree, it is difficult to make a realistic assessment of a gun with pictures, especially one's that are so so.

I've added two more pictures below of the left and right side of the receiver showing the hole in the top lever and more close up of the engraving. Looks like the hole in the top lever is original.

The barrels are in fine shape with no dents or pits. The wood finish has a couple blemishes but otherwise OK.

Thanks again for the responses.

Jolly

Good memory. I didn't bid because I was convinced it would go for more than I was willing to pay. If I recall, it sold for under $1,000.

Here is another one.




Pete

Pete

That is the same gun RIA had. And I don't have the sale prices but I thought it went for over $1500 and under $2000. Pre sale estimate was something like $1400 to $1800 and I thought it ended up on the high side. But my memory could be faulty. It often is. LOL

If it did sell for under $1000, I should have bought it!

Your pics are of the gun MikeeJ had. I believe that gun had a 45xxx serial number and the gun belonging to the friend of the OP is 47xxx.

I have top view pics of both MikeeJ's gun and the RIA gun. There are some very small imperfections in the metal around the top lever that are the same for both guns. I'm guessing he's the one who won the auction.

Going back to the original question, what I am not clear on is what, if anything, has happened to the US market over the last 12-18 months. I see a lot of the same guns so I am assuming it's soft but I don't know if pricing has changed much. The two don't always go hand in hand. Canada has not been hit quite as hard as south of the border.

Most of my Piepers were purchased before 2008, although I picked one up from a fellow poster on this site last month. It's a 16 gauge, identical to another one I have, but with much less engraving. I was waffling on it until I noticed the serial number was 3 numbers away from mine. I get a chuckle imagining the two of them moving down Pieper's assembly line together and ending up with me 90 years later.

Regards,

James

Jolly, have you a picture of the top of the action, with the barrels on and the action closed. I'd like to see the fit between the barrels and the action. Thanks.

Regards,

James

James,

Picture below of the top of the gun with barrels closed. Need any other pix?

That very similar looking Pieper that was auctioned at RAI December 4, 5 and 6 of 2009 was lot number 1621. Estimated $1200 to $1800. Sold for $1380 including the 15% buyers premium.

Thanks everyone for your valued opinion.

Jolly

I sometimes forget that there is often a difference between what I am willing to pay and what a gun is "worth" retail in the current market. Any of the ususal suspects would have this gun listed north of $2k, and you would likely be able to actualy get it for $1800 or so with a little negotiation. Provide the stock some TLC and you might not be able to pull off that 1800.

Jolly, thank for the correction on the RIA pricing. Pete was low and I was high. We both must have been thinking of other guns. LOL

Interesting how both guns seem to have developed a little damage in the area where the barrel extension meets the top lever. If and when it goes up for sale, pls let me know.

Regards,

James

Thanks to everyone who offered their thoughts on my friends Pieper.

I guess I could make a general summarization:
This model in excellent condition with most original finish and no warts or sins might go for between $1800 to $2000.
One with somewhat less finish but still no problems and a nice looking gun for around $1500 to $1600.
One with around half original finish, still pretty nice with no significant mechanical problems but maybe some subtle blemishes for around $1300 to $1400.
One that is all original with no serious problems but might need some more serious TLC for around $1000 to $1200.

I would describe my friends gun as having about half the gray receiver finish; 98% barrel blue with a couple very light surface blemishes; no pits or dents in the barrels; wood looks to have had a coat of varnish or shellac applied over the original finish and not sanded; it has one hole in the toe from the missing sling swivel and a couple dings in the wood in that area; a very small crack in the wood near the toe that looks to have been glued; skeleton steel butt plate has some light surface etching; the top lever is just a little right of center; a very heavy trigger pull for each barrel; both hammers fall OK and they recock OK; Safety works fine.

Thanks again and additional comments welcome.

Jolly