The following action looks like a standard H&H. But it has a self-opening mechanism somehow incorporated into it. Whoever made seemed to know what they were doing. I have marked up some of the movement and parts in different colors for reference and discussion. The yellow part is what I don't understand. I know it is supposed to be a self-opener, but it is very different from the Beesley and the Bury.

What is it? Who invented it? And how does it work? I am at a total loss....

Thanks in advance for any information you can provide....

Gun looks Belgian, medium grade. It looks like it could be Defourney's self-opening system.

Scroll way down to see what I mean:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=228094759

What's the name on your gun? What do the proof marks look like?

What's the story with the gun?

OWD

OWD,

You are right in that it has something to with Belgium, but the gun is an Ugartechea SLE. It was found in an auction in Spain and has both Spanish and Belgium proof marks. It is currently in Spain undergoing restoration. For years, it was rumored that Ugartechea along with AyA had made some guns using the Beesley action, but I have never seen one until now --only it is not a true Beesley, but something else. The following pictures will clear up some questions, but leave many more unanswered...

The Spanish have always copied other kinds of guns as far as I know. However, I have never seen another H&H action like this. Look at the way in which the bridle fits into the head of the stock. Whoever built this gun knew what they were doing. Did Ugartechea invent something new that went unnoticed? A True H&H Self-opener?









Here is an AyA Senior for comparison:



Here is a Defourny action for comparison:







These are obviously three different kinds of actions...

I am beginning to believe that this may be a gun made by Jules Bury and then engraved by Ugartechea. That might explain why there are both Belgium and Spanish Proof marks. Or the other more likely possibility is that it is an Ugartechea copy of Bury. But then why the Belgium proof marks? In either case, I have not seen any self-openers made by Bury of Ugartechea made in this style... Did Bury make a self-opener?

Nonetheless, look at the locks carefully:

Bury locks:



These locks:

Dave-

Those locks look a lot different to me. The bottom one seems to be using the main spring to cock the hammer, like a Beesley.

The one of above is a pretty stand H & H style lock. Am I missing something?

What do the marks ahead of the proofmarks look like? That's where the "maker" may have left his mark.

I bet the gun is Belgian, retailed in Spain. I've never seen a Spanish gun with drop points on it like this one. They look very Belgian, as does the cross pin in the action.

I'm curious to know why you think Bury had a hand in this gun? Please tell me more.

And where did you get the pics of the Defourny? Do you have any more pics/info on their self openers? I've never seen anything in print about these guns.

Thanks

OWD

OWD,

Thanks for replying. It looks like there has been some serious confusion on my part. You see, I participate in a forum very much like this one only it is in Spain and all the participants write in Spanish (as do I).

One of the things that has always been of interest is why the Spanish have never built a true self-opening gun. Terry Wieland explains that the only true self-opening gun ever built in Spain was the AyA Senior. We have pictures of that gun and know that it exists. However, it has been rumored for a long time that Ugartechea also built a self-opener on the Beesley action. Supposedly Purdey sued both AyA and Ugartechea for making guns with a Beesley action and won. The court order against Ugartechea, again according to the legend, demanded that the recall and destroy all the guns built on a the Beesley action in imitation of Purdey. After years of rumor, finally a poster has run across a Ugartechea which appears to have a self-opening system like a Beesley. The gun is question is in these three pictures:







As I may have mentioned this gun was purchased at auction and seems to confirm that Ugartechea did indeed build a self-opener. However, one of the big questions is why does it have Belgium and Spanish proofs. The gun is currently in the shop have some restoration work and we are waiting for more pictures. The owner of the gun reports that it has Victor Sarasqueta barrels and that the gun is from the early part of the 20th Century.

While we wait, some wild theories have been bounced around in order to explain the proof marks from both Belgium and Spain. One poster suggested that the gun was sent to Belgium and smuggled back into Spain and later reproofed to legalize it. Another individual posted this picture which he reports is a Jules Bury gun and suggested that the Ugartechea in question may have locks in it just like this gun:



Only when he made his post, he strung all four photos together and did not make clear that he had added the forth picture and that it was not of the Ugartechea in question, but rather of a different gun entirely. Hence the confusion in my post here. I apologize for that. He also suggested that the Ugartechea in question may have Defourny locks and posted those unique photos of the Defourny. However, the gun pictured with the locks open does not look like the various Bury guns that I am familiar with (one of the reasons why I thought it was of the Ugartechea).

Here is the only additional picture of the locks of the Defourny referenced above:


Those are the only Defourny pictures I have run across. These guys are serious collectors and have guns I have never even heard about. Most of the real good Spanish stuff is in Spain and never really made it across the pond. But these guys also collect all kinds of European gun and as collectors also have all the catalogues, advertisements, and other memorabilia that we generally do not have access to here. One of the posters is the grandson of Victor Sarasqueta. Being on that board is like living in Eibar.

I am waiting for the poster to confirm that the Bury he posted is indeed a Bury and have asked for more pictures. We are all waiting for more pictures of the Ugartechea so we can figure out exactly what we are looking at.

Sorry for the confusion...

Here is a few picts of what these guys have access to...

Here is a page from an old Ugartechea catalogue that shows a Purdey self-opener:



An old Sarasqueta catalogue:


Or like this AyA hammer gun






[img]http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/9720/img0008skm.jpg[/img]

Dave-

One thing that is strange: why would Purdey sue anyone? I believe Purdey's rights to the Beesley patent expired long, long ago, probably well before WW1

If that's the case, it can be copied by anyone who wants to gear up and do it. I've been told that no one makes gun on the Beesley action because it's too difficult and expensive to do. And I'm not sure there's any advantage to it, either. While it's an interesting action, I don't thing it has any real benefits.

I would love to learn anything more about the Defourny-patent self openers. Do the guys on that board you mention have any more info?

And I bet the gun in question was made in Belgium and then brought into Spain. I don't see why anyone would smuggle it in, or do anything like that. As far as I know, there are no laws against bringing a gun in from one European country for sale in another. The Spanish proof marks were probably added by the Spanish "maker" to make the gun look Spanish.

Thanks

OWD

David as a Belgium member I want to clear something. The locks that you pictured as a Bury lock is a picture of the lock from my friend Daryl's Christophe, but that is less important.
He can confirm that but he is outside the U.S. till may 20
In my opinion I think that the Ugartechea was originaly of Belgium manifacture and exported to Spain, unfortunately I cant proove it. Bury produced self openers " or easy openers".
Many U.S. members not know that we had also, sidelocks makers "platineurs" to say it with a French word and one of them was Nicolas Jacquet who lived in Cheratte a city near Liége. Again unfortunately in our country there are no records kept like in the U.K. and that is pitty. But maybe these locks are made by him.
Marc.

Would suggest Belgian made gun provisionally proofed and finished in Spain .Has it been rebarreled ? This could also be the reason for multiple proof marks . The stock look very good for the suggested age so could have been restocked at some point.

David--Could you post a photo of the barrel flats? That would give us more proof info to go on.

Why would it be built in Belgium with Ugartechea's name on the sideplates and it looks like on the right water table is the old Ugartechea mark of an oblong circle with I. U. inside, which would prove to me the maker.

I believe it was made in Spain and shipped to a buyer in Belgium.

But, I'm certainly no expert.

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and for all your thoughts and your replies.

Marc, I am going to forward the information regarding the Christophe. As far a records goes, Spain is in the same boat. Arrieta is the only company that seems to have kept good records. AyA has some records. The rest, nada, nothing, zero, zip. The Proof House in Eibar is as we say in Spanish "una vergüenza" --i.e. embarrassingly pitiful.

Gunman, I like your theory. It makes sense since the gun does have V.S. barrels.

Larry, I am waiting patiently for more pics.

2holer, that seems the likely explanation.

The poster who put up the picture of the Christophe or Bury still claims it is a Bury and added this photo:

The engraving seems to match...

Just by where the proof marks are placed on the action Id say the gun was made/proofed in Spain then imported into Belgium and had their proofs added....

As far as the gun having V. Sarasqueta barrels, I have an Arizaga SL from the 70s with Jabe barrels numbered to the gun. "Borrowing" barrels isn't rare. Today, it might be.

Marc,

Are you sure the picture of the gun I posted above is a Christophe and belongs to your friend Daryl? I have been told once again that is a Bury taken from the book by Laurent Bedu edited in Paris in 2009 called "Platines, les plus beaux fusils du monde." I suspect that is where the pictures of the Defourny came from also.

Here is one more of a Defourny self opener from an old catalogue for OWD

Marc,

I received your email. Thank you.

For those of you who remember this thread, we are looking at a gun that up until now, did not exist. For years, amongst Spanish gun enthusiasts, there were rumors that Ugartechea also built a few guns with Beesley actions. In his book, Spanish Best, Terry Wieland only mentions the AYA Senior as the only Spanish gun built on a Beesley action. Well, on another forum in Spain we have finally found an Ugartechea with what appears to be a Beesley action, only unlike the AyA Senior, it has Holland locks --posing the question, how does this action work? There was some speculation that either it was actually based upon a similar action as found in a Defourney or a similar self-opening action found in another gun suspected to be built by Jules Bury (a Christophe)... What made the gun more of an enigma is that it has both Spanish and Belgian proof marks.

Within the last few days a few more pictures and a little more information has surfaced regarding the Ugartechea in question on the Spanish gun forum, Caza y Armas. First, the gun in question has Victor Saraqueta barrels that do not appear to be original to the gun. The barrels are from a different time period than the action of the gun and were probably made because the original barrels had been damaged. We now know from the Spanish proof marks used on the action of the gun, that the action was made between 1921-1929 because it has the stamp mark of Alfonso XIII. However, supposedly Ugartechea did not start making guns until 1927, so that narrows the date of production from 1927-1929. What remains to be seen is the insides of the gun in order to better understand how a self-opener would work with Holland locks and who actually made this gun...

Here are the additional pictures that are very interesting, especially of the one of the action which shows what appears to be cocking levers in addition to the opening levers on the water table...

Comments welcomed!

Condition of the hidden 3rd fastener certainly makes it look as if the barrels--if not the entire gun--have seen some hard use.

Larry,

I agree. In general, the Spanish are notorious for not taking care of their guns. For many, no matter how nice a gun is, it is seen as a tool and as a result will sit in the corner of the basement in a case, un-oiled and still dirty from the last hunt.

Case in point, my cousin who lives just south of the Spanish/French boarder has a nice AyA #2 that he hunts with. He got the gun is trade and as a result doesn't realize that it is a $3000-$4000 gun even though I told him several times. Last time I saw it, it looked pretty rough from neglect.

David, Marc, and others. The lock 1641 is from my Christophe. I am looking at the lock as I type. I took the picture a couple of years ago. I might guess that the Christophe is made by Jules Bury with parts from Britte. The receiver is marked with a crown over JB.

My take is that the gun was made in Belgium for retail in Spain. Not an unusual way to have been done in Europe. We see Belgian made guns retailed in England [James Kirk for one], in Austria [Novotny by Britte for another]. The entanglement of trade between countries was much greater than we have imagined before. I have not checked my catalogs, but feel that Dumoulin could have made the Spanish gun , in part or total. Engraving is more Belgian than Spanish in my opinion, but the engraver could have been a Belgian, relocated to Spain, similar to the many Belgian engravers who relocated to Italy after the War.

Google Ignatio Ugartachea and they result say's he started in 1922 . Is it possible that he spent time or trained in Belgium?

Daryl,

Thank you for clarifying who took the picture and what kind of gun it is. The reason I posted that picture is because on another board, someone believed the the Ugartechea in question may have a similar self-opening mechanism to your Christophe.



I suspect that also the case --a very nice gun indeed! Would you mind posting some more pictures of the gun and tell us a little about it? Also, is it possible that your photograph made it into a recently released book written in French by Laurent Bedu and published in Paris in 2009 called "Platines, les plus beaux fusils du monde"? The original poster of your photo claims he scanned it from that book.

I am going to take another step and write Ugartechea about this most unusual gun.

Interesting that the new book has pilfered photos in it. I wonder about the content of the book and how many pictures were taken in the same way. Some time ago I contacted the author and attempted to buy a copy of the book. He failed to respond. I wonder why. I think the picture of the Christophe lock came from this BBS. The original is below.

Here are a few pictures of the Christophe. It is engraved and signed by Schoffeniels. Of course, the Christophe is a standard Holland style, and neither a self or assisted opener.

Recently this subject has been clarified and there is more information that might interest you in:

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=479303&page=3