I would like help selecting my first old SxS.

I would mainly like to know what to watch for, and what to ask the seller about the gun.

SxS’s are very rare about here, so I am almost forced to buy thru the internet. I have admired SxS’s for a long time and visit this site daily, but don’t post much. I do have one of the launch edition RBL’s, but I now have the urge for something old.

What would you suggest for a good starter gun? My budget would be around $1000.00.

Also, I am not opposed to external hammers.

You will of course want a Smith
This should help http://www.lcsmith.org/faq/buying.html
You will however avoid a several hundred dollar mistake by compelling a doublegun specialist to accompany you on your quest, with chamber length, bore and wall thickness gauges in hand.

P.S. For an upland gun, you could get a well cared for 16g Ithaca Flues and a case of RSTs for $1000

I suggest considering an Ithaca NID. You can probably find a nice condition one in 12 ga. for under your budget AND you can shoot off the shelf loads in it.

Fox Sterlingworth in my opinion

The sky is your limit, Good luck on your quest!
PS. post pictures for us.

Many will disagree with me, but...

I would never buy a first SXS that could not shoot modern ammunition, preferably steel, OTC loads.

I have a slew of old doubles, and I find the greatest impediment to my using them is ammunition. My life doesn't provide as much time at the reloading bench as in the past, and it is sooooo much easier to just grab some OTC shells and go shooting.

That cuts the list way down.

If you don't plan to shoot it, but rather just look at it, then at $1,000.00 the field has many openings. Especially in hammer guns.

It might seem odd that ammunition determines using choice, but cartridges are the bottle neck for vintage doubles. Whether as reloads, or as specially loaded OTC offerings. One as time, the other as money.
Not everyone wants to pay $15.00 a round for skeet. And that's where it is for low pressure loads if you don't reload for yourself.
A decent afternoon with the kids (2) can run $150-$200 easily.

An L.C. Smith would be a good option for a sidelock gun.
For your budget, a Fox Sterlingworth or Parker VH in good condition could be had for higher end American made Box Locks.

If you want something a bit cheaper and keep some money in your pocket, the Stevens 311 is a great reliable gun. Or if you want the same with some extra options, maybe a Savage/Stevens Fox Model B.

For American guns, Lefever and Fox Sterlingworth, also give some thought to the German guns. Lots of value out there.

tunes

Why not go to Steve Barnett Fine Guns in West Point, MS

Mike Covington lives in Jackson and knows about the older doubles and i am sure he will be contacting you. Bobby

As a caveat... I do not heed my own advice. So with that in mind, I would avoid buying an older double unless you can see it in person and inspect it. I would take that $1000.00 dollars, hold on to it and save up some more for a newer SxS, and when I say newer I'm thinking 1980 and on.

Now I say this with my #1 grouse getter being a 16 Ga Fox Sterlingworth. I have already nearly added what I paid for it with work done to replace the wood, open the chokes and regulate one of the barrels, but at 5 3/4 lbs its the lightest American made 16 Ga. I'm a fan of the Fox Sterlingworth and recently picked up another on GB of all places (see what I mean by not heeding my own advice).

Frankly, buying an older double is always a crap shoot. Sometimes, you get lucky and the gun was well cared for and is in great condition with no issues in the 70-100 year old wood or the mechanism, and it actually fits you right. Sometimes this is not the case and it needs work, which adds cost and it can turn into a money pit. Ammo is always a concern to. I am hesitant to fire modern loads in any of my old doubles (I have 4 old doubles, in addition to the Sterlingworth 16 Gauges, I have a 12 Ga Elsie, and a 20 Ga J.P. Sauer pre war, again, not following my own advice and so far I've only been lucky on the Elsie which was granddad's and well cared for, luck with the incoming Sterlingworth remains to be seen) Furthermore I would be very cautious with an old sidelock like a an Elsie or a Baker, because they have less wood abutting the mechanism than a box lock. RST shells seems to abate this issue but at a higher cost them modern shells. Also no steel shot, you will put a bulge in your barrels.

So in all, if your going to purchase an older double over the internet, make sure you have an inspection period, ideally one where you could fire it and have a smith on hand to look it over. If you go for a newer double, a lot of these concerns are not present save for proper fit.


Good luck and if no matter what its an older double that you want, here's a second vote for a Fox Sterlingworth, it is possible to find small bore Sterlingworths under a grand, but not by much.

-Chris

The first thing you need to do is double your budgeted $. Old anythings are a money pit and unless you find the legendary Old Lady you will pay more for the gun than it is worth to start with. And you won't be happy with anything in your original price range (Rule One of Expectations in Gun Buying). Guns are a money eating proposition unless you buy by the lb and sell by the oz. And keep it for years and never do anything with it but show it to prospective buyers. Be prepared to eat every penny you put into it because the only person in your bloodline that will profit (maybe) by your purchase has yet to be born.
Price based decisions are losers. Decide what GUN you want. Find it, buy it and ignore the price. Shoot it till it rattles.

have a day
Dr.WtS

I've found the fun is as much in the chase as in the destination!

Decide what GUN you want. Find it, buy it and ignore the price. Shoot it till it rattles.

have a day
Dr.WtS [/quote]

I admire that determined philosophy to a point, but because I followed that technique with a woman once... I've become more selective... and yes, she now rattles.

To elaborate, keep an eye out for what you want and be prepared to act when it's available in good condition at the right price. Be realistic on both, but try not to act in haste. The available guns change all the time, except for the overpriced ones which take up shelf space and bandwidth seemingly forever.

It's too individual a choice to make recommendations except to study beforehand.

Thanks for all the replies.

I will have to visit Steve Barnett’s Fine Guns in West Point, MS. It’s around 2-1/2 hrs. from my house.

As for the shells, I don’t mind buying low pressure shells, because I probably won’t shoot it but every now and then. I have the RBL if I want to shoot a lot.

welder said it right. Hold on to your $1,000 until you find the right gun. First, decide what you are going to hunt/shoot. Small gauge guns go up in price ezponentially with the reduction in bore size. A Fox Sterlingworth or a Parker Trojan are good choices in 12 gauge at that price level as is a LC Smith field grade. Find a gun that fits you well and get some good advice from those that are knowledgable on doubles.

Best Reards on the Hunt.......George

Buck, PM sent.

I don't expect you'll find anything in your budget there.

Re the earlier comment about buying something that will take OTC shells, if you have a local source of Fiocchi ammo, they make a 12 ga training load that is well under 7,000psi, 7/8oz payload. If you can buy those shells locally, you can safely run them through an awful lot of old doubles. I also have in my files a copy of a letter from Sherman Bell regarding Win AA Featherlights in the 26 gram load. He ran P and V tests on them and came up with avg 5950psi.

Stallone, if you know where Sterlingworths are still under a $1000 please send me an address?

Buck, what is older to you? Is that 50years, 100 years, o more? You can probably find a pretty nice JP Sauer post war around your price range and in condition without problems and Charles Daly/Miroku doubles are in that range too. If you go much older than that the Ithaca NIDs are not too far out of the price range. But the 100 year old guns are for those of us somewhat jaded who like to play with short chambers, lower pressure limits and aren't afraid of damascus if properly checked out.

If you buy thru the internet, find a seller that will take it back, no questions asked. You'll only be out shipping if it isn't what you want.

I think Stallones and Walt Snyder's suggestions are solid. You might also look at Lefever Nitro Specials, Hunter Arms (LC Smith) Hunter Specials, and some others.

I like to hold a shotgun in my hand, although I've bought a few cheap guns without actually laying hands-on.

Without a strong return policy and some very good pictures, I don't think I'd go 1K on an unseen shotgun. I've been that high and a bit more on a rifle, but I knew the dealer and had dealt with him before.

Joe is correct about sticker shock at Barnett's but you can look. Looking is good. How about a Syracuse Lefever? Lot of G grades out there and yes you can pick up a pretty nice shooter G for under 1k. Not so many are steel-barreled tho and those are about the same age as your more usual damascus so it'd be a tossup on barrel strength and special low-pressure diet. Tunes whispered a bit of a hint there if you're not stuck on American scrap iron. Also don't buy too many with the stock cranked down like a hockey stick unless you like standing your jaw on the comb where a lot of folks think your cheekbone should go. I can see a lot of advantages to a mid-30s NID. Sterlingworth not so much but they're still plentiful and hell for stout and they'll come and go again without causing you too much fiscal pain.

jack

There are some very good deals out there right now in older Spanish doubles, but you'll need help to pick the right one in that price range. It's easy to make a mistake on those, but the good ones are quite nice.

I don't have anything against American guns but I'd look for a Berreta SXS maybe not quite in the older time frame but certainly an older maker

It appears to me that presently the best values in that price range are from the Continent, although buying from a reputable seller with inspection privileges is imperative, it's easy to get stuck with a junk gun otherwise.

A word about Steve Barnett: I had a doublegun from him in my hands for inspection and the return spring snapped. He offered without hestitation to take it back for a full refund or pay for the repair, at my option. This kind of courtesy to the customer is becoming a rare thing.

The most quality for the least money are the German guns I think. You can get a pretty nice German 12 gauge boxlock for that.

Best,

Mike

Jerry,
Sterlingworth 16 Gauges sell for under a $1000.00 time to time on Gunbroker, but you take your chances. I've seen the same for Elsies as well and once in a blue moon a 20 Ga sells for around a $1000.00. These are guns without a reserve.

BUCK2
Another option you may want to consider is a an actual Czechoslovakian made CZ BRNO. I think they were made from the 60's through the 80's and they are very nice for the price... around $400-$600 for a 12GA. I bought a pair from a board member last year and they are very well made and balanced guns.

LC Smith without a doubt.

I'd go with a Fox....all a thousand bucks is going to get you is an over priced clapped out L.C. Smith.

Buck,

I love SxS's and own or have owned them from LC Smith, Parker, AH Fox, Lefever Arms, CSMC, Merkel, Winchester, Browning, Baker, Savage Arms, and Beretta. I did however start much as you are doing, that is by desiring a vintage SxS!

Here is my non-so-humble opinion;
- Beretta SxS are very good and reliable but do not, in my not-so-humble opinion, compare to the "feel" of old America SxS's.
- The Browning BSS is a very well made and reliable SxS and the 12 gauges can be found for a good price.
- Merkels, especially those made during the East German period are the best value of any SxS presently. They are however an acquired taste with their sling swivel studs and cheek pieces. Personally, I prefer quick-detachable sling swivels on a duck or turkey gun.
- Winchester Model 21's prices are down like most classic doubles under $10K. For $4k one can buy a great M21! They may however be out of your price range.
- Winchester Model 23's were made in Japan and are a very good gun. Their prices start just under $2k and climb to $3k+ for the Heavy and Light Duck models.
- SKB SxS's are in the Merkel class for reliability and VALUE! They are priced a little higher an Merkel but are also more popular. The Ithaca SxS’s of the 1980’s were made by SKB.
- Stay away from the lower end guns like Savage 311, and the slew of Turkish imports. Their first weakness will soon be found in the trigger parts which are not hardened as they should be. When they fail, and if shot much they will, you will have a heck of a time getting them fixed.

Then there are the classic American guns such as Parker, LC Smith, AH Fox, and Lefever Arms:
- I love shooting LC Smiths. The lower grades, post 1913 guns tend to develop cracks behind the sidelocks. This can be avoided by glass bedding (super glue works for Smith actions) and shooting only low pressure loads (under 8000 PSI). NOTE: Recoil cracks stocks and pressure loosens actions. Pressure and recoil are not mutually exclusive but one can load very potent ammunition with pressures below 8000 PSI. Modern factory ammo is optimized to function dirty autoloaders which most use pressure to cycle their actions! As for LC Smiths, I much prefer the pre-13 Grade 1 and higher! Grade 2's are a lovely gun and also a good buy. I expect to pay but 2/3 for a Smith as I would an equivilent grade Parker. But then Parkers have increased in value...
- Parkers have a somewhat complicated action but are easily repairable by anyone with decent mechanical skills. If you have changed a head gasket on a V-8 engine then dissembling a Parker action should be within your skills. The previous stated, Parkers are very reliable for 100+ year old guns. Parkers do have a fault in their stocks which may crack at the head if hammered with magnum loads. This is why one will see Parkers with a bolt thru the head of the stock! As for value in today's depressed economy, Parkers have for the most part held their value. A good VH or even a good condition Trojan will serve you well. A Parker GH (Grade 2) in good condition is a heck of a great gun in looks and performance!
- AH Fox to include the Sterlingworth guns are the simplest action with the exception of the later Lefever Arms. The Fox Sterlingworths are great buys and but for fit and finish, are the same gun as the "graded" Foxes such as A, B, CE and so on. If you find an AH Fox that fits you and you like it then buy it!!!
- Lefever Arms guns, especially the later ones, are perhaps the best classic American SxS's. This is due to "Uncle" Dan Lefever being the inventor of the "automatic" hammerless action and numerous other mechanisms found in early and today's SxS's. Lefever guns were continually updated with innovations. The later guns had the fewest parts of any vintage American SxS's. Fewer action parts mean that the guns should be more reliable than more complicated actions! Lefever guns had a Fully Compensated Action meaning that they had an adjustable ball on the hinge pin that could be used to tighten the action. Why didn't other manufactures employ this wonderful feature! I have paid between $150 to $300 to have many LC Smith, Parker, and one "Super Fox" actions tightened! My Lefevers only require a slight twist of a simple tool. Smart, VERY Smart!
- The Lefever Arms DS model was a very basic later gun with fluid steel barrels. The DS has the same action as all later Levers minus cocking indicators. I own one in 20 gauge and much prefer it over a Parker DHE 20 worth 3x as much as the lowly DS!!! A CSMC RBL Launch 20 gauge left my safe long ago being overshadowed by this simple Lefever Arms DS.
-- PS: Lefever Nitro Specials are Ithaca guns cashing in on the Lefever name. They are good guns as are all Ithaca's but they are not Lefevers!

So, these are my opinions based on my lessons in the school of hard knocks! If you must shoot steel find a Merkel, SKB, or BSS and hammer away! Otherwise, welcome to the world of hand fitted guns made by skilled craftsmen long passed. Be advised that your first classic SxS will not be your last.

PS: I didn't mention Damascus steel barrels. This is all together another subject. Please be advised that many classic guns with the exception of those from AH Fox may have Damascus barrels. Inspect the barrels under the fore end where the bluing will be worn. If you see any hint of a pattern in the steel the barrels are probably Damascus or twist steel that someone has blued. If Damascus or twist steel is in good condition, and from a quality maker they should be safe to shoot with low pressure loads. DISCLAIMER: Have a competent SxS gunsmith measure the barrel wall thickness!!! Any 100+ year old gun with "perfect" bores may have been honed or ever reamed to remove pitted areas. Most guns from around 1890 and later have bores within a few thousands (of an inch) of its maker's standard, i.e. LC Smith 12 gauges have bores of .729" or a couple thousands smaller.
- I keep my working loads for Damascus around 6000 PSI. Loading for this would however complicate shooting that classic gun if you are not a avid handloader. Perhaps one should start with a SxS with fluid steel barrels and leave all those beautiful Damascus barrels for me!!!

Respectfully,
Mark

You sometimes can find Birmingham made, box lock nonejectors in that price range. The dimensions will be more shootable than many classic American guns, other than the stock may be a bit short. Most likely would be a 2.5in chamber gun, but shells can be ordered from RST and others.

Otherwise, plenty of other good advice here.

Nice condition, not much money.
http://www.cabelas.com/product/Gun-Library/American-Shotguns%7C/pc/103792680/c/103581180/Fulton-Hunter-12-Gauge-SXS/1166591.uts?destination=%2Fcatalog%2Fbrowse%2Fgun-library-american-shotguns%2F_%2FN-1103060%2FNo-48%2FNs-CATEGORY_SEQ_103581180%3FWTz_l%3DUnknown%253Bcat103792680%26WTz_st%3DGuidedNav%26WTz_stype%3DGNP&WTz_l=Unknown%3Bcat103792680%3Bcat103581180

Wow Mark. Your thread was very well thought out and informative.

My advice...

Do your best to figure out what you want and then be patient until you find a good deal on a solid gun.

I've found over the years that my preference is for old American made doubles, and more specifically for the Baker side by side shotguns. I love the sidelock design and how well made and solid the old Baker guns are. In my eyes they are as beautiful as they are functional. And for me it's as much about the history and the heritage as it is about the individual gun.

That kind of stuff may not matter to you though, or your likes may take a completely different path. But if you do have definite opinions on certain qualities that you want or feel you might enjoy in an old double, then pay special attention to that criteria as you look. If you don't then your purchase may end up being unsatisfying after it's all said and done.

Be patient and find a solid gun in safely shootable condition. Don't jump on something that's "almost solid" just because it's cheap... Trust me, it ain't a good deal!

That being said, I'll put my plug in for the Baker guns. Especially if your interests lean more toward the American vintage doubles.

For now the Baker guns have less collector interest than the Parkers, LC Smiths, Foxes, Lefevers, and Ithacas. So you can usually find a comparable Baker for considerably less than you'd pay for one of the others. Quality-wise they are every bit the equal of the others and in my experience they exceed the durability of a few. You should be able to find a very nice Baker made Batavia Special for considerably less than your price limit and may even be able to find a higher grade for $1000 or less.

Do LOTS of research, ask LOTS of questions, and handle as many guns as you can as you fine-tune your decision.

Mark,

Lots of well-represented info, but I must take exception to the above statement. While it may be true of the Turkish guns - with which I have no experience - it certainly is not true of the Stevens guns, which are among the more robust out there; I've seen many that were rode hard and put up wet that are still functioning as intended. And even if they're not, they're easily fixed.

Fin

Fin,

I didn't mean to offend you. Your 311 may be function flawlessly after hard abuse as many do. If you like your 311 and it likes you that's great!

There are however far, far too may 311's gracing the benches of our local gunsmiths. The problems is nearly always triggers. The single trigger guns have mroe problems than do the those with double triggers. Years ago I owned a double trigger 311 with a trigger problem. More recently I've witnessed a 311 which would not open. Try opening a 311 that decides its too worn to play any more!

The 311's are good guns but overall they are not as reliable as a near-100 year old LC Smith field grade or Sterlingworth. Also, some of the lower priced modern Turkish guns never have a problem. Others of the same brand and model do. Perhaps this was the downfall of the S&W Elite? It was and is good quality Turkish gun but its sales were poor. Was it guilt by association?

I respectfully stand by my statement concerning the entry level SxS's, stay away from them.

Thinking about it more, dollar for dollar, a I've recently seen a few 12 gauge Sterlingworths sell at auction for less than $1k.

For $1k I'd look at a Fox Sterlingworth. To buy from auction, so long as the buyer asks many questions via email (to establish a record) and the seller has a no questions asked return policy, auctions are a great place to buy. Recently I've purchased a few desirable collector guns in advertised good but not great condition. I had them shipped to my gunsmith who inspected them for me. I advised him to return any gun not in "as described" condition. So far, he has not needed to do so.

Mark

There are lots of good German, Belgian, and Austrian guns out there in your price range.

+1. Putting a 311 in the same category as a Turkish gun isn't right. 311's are tough guns. Most were way more abused than any Fox, Parker, LC, etc. They are butt ugly, plank like, finished like a tool, but parts not hardened properly? I don't believe that for a minute. Something tells me that the Stevens Tool and Die Co. knew a little sumthin-sumthin about properly hardening steel. I've owned several 311's over the years, they've all been zero problem guns, even the 311 I bought for parts at a gunshow for $45, it looked to be a total trainwreck cosmetically, but it still worked. And I wasted my $45 cause I never needed to tear it apart for parts, none of my other 311's ever broke.

For a starter SxS shotgun, the 311 is a good choice, its what I started out with and used for many years. My 311's digested untold thousands of wally world promo loads. Back then I was shooting skeet and trap 3 nights a week and the only shotguns I owned were those 311's, I knew nothing of "low pressure" ammo, I shot what was cheap and those Savage/Stevens 311's took all that abuse and never hiccupped, none of them were loose, off "the" face, etc. I owned two with single non-selectable triggers (including the "trainwreck" gun), the single triggers were simple, robust and worked. I've never heard anyone having any sort of problems with the double triggers.

If its a higher quality gun that you seek for a bit more money, listen to Mr. Hallquist advice, plenty of very nice continental guns out there that are priced right.

Dustin

I have to second the Lefever DS suggestion as a gun to look at. They were made near the end of the Lefever production so materials are modern and most of the "improvements" to Lefevers are included. Almost all have steel barrels. Most have stocks that can be shot as is, not with the three plus inches drop of the early guns.

I found a high condition DS about three years ago for $750. I would not take twice that for the gun. I got lucky this year on a LC Smith for the same money but nine out of ten for that money will be money pits or worn out beaters. It is not the brand or the gun as much as knowing what are the normal problems and then knowing when a gun is a good value because it is correct and not some refinished, wornout piece of junk. You can find a high condition DS or a high condition NID for a grand. Much less likely to find any Parker, Smith or Fox in high condition for anywhere near that money.

NIDs are very decent guns, but some lament the styling of them. Few say that about them in small gauge, with a little engraving for some reason. Sterlingworths are solid gun and 12 can be bought in very nice condition for a grand if a later Savage made gun. Take the offer from others here and take one of them with you. Their education in what to buy and what to avoid will get you the best gun for the buck and save you thousands of buck in mistakes.

The best thing to do is to go to one of the larger gun shows where you can see a hundred double guns and look at as many of them as you can. When in doubt pass on any gun that does not look exactly like what you want. Do not settle for a gun.

Mark,

Certainly no offense taken. Just relating my experience with 311's (actually, the ones I own are all pre-1949 and stamped 5100), and I'm sure you are too. I'm just surprised the ones you've seen have let you down, as mine never have.

Fin

I've got a JC Higgins stamped 5100. It's as well finished as any shotgun you'll see for less than $1k. It's better finished than a comparable 311, the blueing and polish is far better, the metal to wood fit is excellent, and it has a steel Neidner-style buttplate. I don't know if they all are like that or this one happened to be someone's job they took particular pride in, but it's a great 16 ga. gun with a decent piece of walnut. Just no checkering.

It changed my opinion of JC Higgens guns. It's in almost as new condition and I paid $225 for it.

The Nitro Special will be lighter per gauge and have better balance and handling then the 311 but you can never go wrong with buying a Stevens. Both are good tough guns.

would agree with Daryl about German & Belgian .
I have seen a few
lovely looking ones of the unnamed Guild type around that price on web.
Might be better to save up another 500 or 1000, that would open it up a bit more.
A nice plain but stout Birmingham boxlock non ejector,like say a Greener or Midland?
At this price I'd be looking for a good solid Gun of lower grade (in the decoration/wood department),but in good shooting condition
I've had good luck buying long distance.Had to sent one or two back,but hey!
I found it very worth while to find a very good gunsmith as close as possible & after getting good pics other pertinent info
& you really want the gun, have it send it straight to your Smith.
You'll have to make sure he's willing to check it right away, then on his opinion buy or send it back.
I've asked dealers ahead of time for a few extra days on the inspection period & have not been refused.
The internet sure opens up the possibles though.
I'm going to pretend I have about a grand to spend on a gun,,see what I can find.
good luck
Franc

i have made many mistakes and lost a few dollars,really a good many buying this and that.But in my opinion buy a lower grade Smith,Parker ,DS Lefever,AH Fox in good condition and you will not be sorry.The problem will be will the gun come close to fitting you.Most have a good bit of drop. Bobby

This guys has loads of stuff like this $700 Merkel.
Helluva list.
I hope its the flash that makes the stock look orange Blackbern
I wonder if its mail only, or can you root around?
Franc

That didn't work, but check out the higher priced ($700 or a bit more)Merkels,Suaers etc here
http://www.757arms.com
Steve Cobb has a kinda pretty LePage for 1200 & a Sauer for1400
Franc

In defense of the Stevens 311's. I agree that the earlier ones marked 5100 might be the better choice. That is what mine is, which was my fist shotgun. And it has not failed me yet. I never hesitate to take it out and put 50-100 rounds through it at the skeet field.
For what a good 311 with cost, you can't go wrong.
And it they do break, there are a lot of parts available.
Now the 311 is not to be confused with the 315. The 315's are much more prone to problems due to their internal design.

http://www.vintagedoubles.com/inventory.php?sort=4&process=fullview&gunID=1575

My 77 year old Mother-in-law could haggle that gun down to $900.


Best,

Mike

I like this one too:

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.p...1b36ebd65b3eef8

Best,

Mike

Why would the guy want a clapped out Sauer or Husky ?

I guess we have different definitions of clapped out. The Sauer has almost all of it's orginal case colors and blue.

Both guns are very well made. High quality and good condition for $1,000.

What have you seen out on the net for $1000?

Best,

Mike