I have an old lefever F grade stock and action(no barrels) and I have some questions.

1. What year was it made serial # 15831?
2. What is the distance between firing pins(centers) for 16 gauge and 20 gauge guns?

thank you
Patrick

Should be about 1891, but a lot of guns were made out of sequence. Photos of the action (sideplates, watertable) could help giving more assurance about likely date range.

Thank you Rich,
Here are some pictures. It is a small frame and I am also trying to determine if this is a 16 or 20 gauge which is why I asked for the distance on the firing pin centers. This action is 1 1/8" between firing pin centers and 2 1/4 wide on the breech face. Any help is appreciated.

Patrick

Very nice!I know very little about Lefevers but the later 16 and 20 gauges frame's were marked xx with a few 12 gauge guns on xx frames.Never seen a 12 on xx frame though. Bobby

From what I understand the firing pin distance can vary and isn't going to tell you what gauge this was originally.

OK,
So how do I determine the gauge? The frame is almost 1/4" narrower than a G 12 gauge that I have so I assumed it was not a 12 gauge. What is the width of a 16 ga extractor guns at the widest part of the breech balls?

thanks
Patrick

Patrick,

just measured my XX frame 16ga E grade: 26mm center-to-center serial #35xxx

12ga F grade not XX frame: 29mm

12ga G grade not XX frame: 29.5mm

hope this helps some

Jeff

Pat, is there just one X on that frame ?

Yes Daryl,
There is only one X.

Patrick

I have a set of LeFever barrels that might fit this frame. I will check for the serial number on the barrels. Jent --- jentpmitchell@msn.com

Patrick,

I don't know the gauge, but I really like your gun. I'm not technically oriented, but your cocking system looks like a double hook, i.e. one in the frame and one dropping down from the rear lug to connect with it. That would be true to the date of production I mentioned. I hope you find barrels to fit. I could be completely wrong, but I think you need a set of barrels with a hook dropping from the rear lug. Others should be able to check me on this. I welcome being corrected, so long as you end up with the right info. Jent, are your barrels for a double hook gun?

I believe there were three 12 ga frames, and the smallest was also shared with the 16 ga. The 20 ga or XX frame was also shared with the 16. Contact Ken Hurst, he had all the various dim. at one time, for his Lefever project.

Craig

I don't have a 20ga & only one 16ga. The 16 @ 6 3/4lbs is not a particularly light one & it only measures about 1 1/16" pin to pin. I have 12ga's with pin spacings from 1 1/8" up to about 1 5/16". This one sounds like a light 12 to me.
Rich is correct about it being a two hook gun. Also I don't recall seeing a dog on the plate of an F grade except on these early ones. This would all appear to validate the age given.

It's a double hook cocking model - Nice.

If you really want to know send the gun to Buck Hamlin in Pevely, MO. You might get lucky and he may have a set of barrels that will fit. By the way that is too nice of a gun not to try to get shooting again.

I have a double hook 16 G. It is an XX frame. The pins measure 1.012 center to center. This is an in frame ejector frame. I don't know if that helps.

Thank you all for the input. I still don't know the gauge "as built" but I am assuming a light 12 or maybe a 16.

Patrick

Best of luck with this. Very good idea to make contact with Buck Hamlin, who sees more Lefevers in a year than anyone. Buck might come across a set of barrels worth trying out. It's a very tricky proposition, since there was so much hand finishing with the doll's head. Any particular set of barrels, even close in the serial number range as your frame, may not fit. That said, I have two G grade double hooks, not too far apart in the SN range, whose barrels I can switch back and forth. You could get lucky and your nice looking frame is worth trying!

I participated in a survey of frame sizes on the first generation Lefever forum, which is now superceded by a new forum. I don't know if I printed the thread before the forum was changed. We found many different dimensions for frame size and pin separation with no standard dimensions discovered. I will look for the information for Patrick.

OK, I found the print of the frame size forum thread from March 2007. I measured 16 gauge pin spacings as small as 1.00. The 1 1/8 spacing is normally a 12 gauge frame. I measured ten gauge sidecockers at 1 7/32 (enormous and a correction from the original post) and another at only 1 1/8. Another ten, a pivot lever automatic, is also on the big 1 7/32 pin separation frame. (this 1 7/32 is a correction from the original post) Without measuring an eight gauge, a very light ten in my collection, or a marked XX frame, I got four pin separations without leaving home. Another person who sent in measurements to the survey came up with four other measurements, but I am reluctant to share them because a couple were a bit off the wall. I don't know why I didn't measure the PS on my 7 1/4 pound fluid steel ten, but I will assume it is on the little frame with 1 1/8 pin separation. Patrick, I assume your gun is a light twelve.

I assume fullandfuller's 26MM and DrBob's 1.012 are the same as most people's 1" pin separation. I further assume that fullandfuller's 29MM and 29.5MM measurements are the common 1 1/8" separation as measured by most people. We still have five different PS if we include Miller's "about 1 1/16" measurement. Bar and breech ball measurements are apparently all over the map on Lefevers. The reason the survey didn't go to completion with an eight gauge, my light ten, and XX frames is that the forum was deleted while the survey was being conducted and was lost to those who did not print the thread.

Thank you Bill

Patrick

You're very welcome, Patrick. If you need more of the survey, let me know, but I posted about all that is useful. The thread copied at seven pages and was very interesting except for the fact that it was interrupted. By the way, for the information of those who do not know, the 1.00" is equivalent to a 0 frame Parker. The 1 1/8" is equivalent to the 1 1/2 and 2 frame Parker. The big ten Lefever frame pin separation is between a 3 and a 4 frame Parker. I CORRECTED THE PIN SEPARATION ON THE BIG FRAME FROM 1 7/16 TO 1 7/32 WHICH IS CORRECT.

I will add that the 1 1/8" pin separation on Patrick's little frame is the same as the separation on my ten gauge sidecocker. This is not hard to believe since hundreds if not thousands of ten gauge Parkers were made on the #2 frame which has the identical pin separation, and at least one ten gauge Parker has been studied which was made on the #1 frame which has a pin separation of 1 1/16". I wouldn't shoot that gun, but someone has and it is still intact.

8-Bore;
I was quoting that 1 1/16" from memory from back when this topic was on the Lefever forum. I did just go & pull it out & re-checked it though. I didn't get precise but just layed a 6" machinist scale acroos the pins & that measurement is spot on, whether I check center to center of the pins or from same sides of the pin holes in breech. Height of the breech from flats to top is 1 1/8" & width of breech is 2 1/8", or twice the pin spacing. Many guns, including some of my other Lefevers, will have a pin spacing of less than half the breech width.

Thanks, Miller. I guess that 1 1/16" PS adds another example to the mix. Can someone measure some XX frames and an eight gauge or two?

8-bore;
In spite of its 6 3/4 lb weight this 16 is on an XX frame. I had come to the conclusion the XX denoted a frame with a narrower bar width as this one is narrower than all my others which except for the big 10 have bars of essentially the same width. However I have since heard of a 12 ga having the same narrower bar as this XX 16 which did not have the XX mark.

Patrick, I haven't visited in a few days and saw your thread. I thought I would add.... I have a LeFever with the exact measurements as your receiver. 1 1/8" x 2 1/4". Mine is an F grade , 12xxx serial, rod cocker, pivot lever, 12 gauge with 30"barrels. Weighs 7 lbs. 4oz. Would this be considered a "light twelve"? Hope this helps you.

all the best, Robert.

All this posting about the double XX light frame mark on the Lefevers brings to mind a question I've had for years. I have a Philly Fox Sterlingworth 12 with a XX mark on the action flats that looks just like the Lefever small frame mark. Anybody know what it might mean?...Geo

Thank you Robert,
Your sample and what Bill provided earlier is what I needed to confirm this is a 12 gauge. If this was a 16 gauge I was going to try to find some barrels. I have way to many 12 gauge projects already so this one will find a new home.

thanks again
Patrick

Patrick,

What are you planning to ask for this?

I measured a couple of XX frame 20 gauges and they were both 1.03" pin to pin.

Hello Pat
Ive pretty much stopped posting on these boards. I wouldnt have posted now but a good friend emailed asking me questions about your gun. It seems some people make these things there lives and do nothing but hammer other people. So I dont care what someone 3 guns or his 1913 reprint catalog has to say but here is what I see with your gun.
Your gun looks very typical for its serial number range. I only thing I cant explain is the one X on the frame. I believe it to be to early of a gun to be marked with the XX. As for the dogs on an F, this is very normal for this serial number range. There are alos some Fs with a bird on one side and a dog on the other. There are not alot of Fs with dogs but Ive seen 8 or 10 other guns around this number range with dogs. Your guns is a 2 piece cocker, standard opener, push button forend gun.
As for the gauge. I have done a spread sheet of measurments of my guns. Ive got 8ga, 10ga 12ga 14ga 16ga listed. (No 20 there to modern for me). I have small frame guns in 12ga 14ga and 16ga.
I looked at the measurments of your gun and compared them to my spread sheet. I have no question in my mind that your gun started out life as a 12ga gun.
If you have any coments or questions please email @ bobnoble@hughes.net As im done posting.