I recently found out my 5 yr old upland lab has arthritis in her back that is starting to limit her abilities and endurance. I can see she has pain at times. I'm working with our vet to begin a therapy of oral supplements/medications and injections. Our hope being that we can prolong my dog's mobility and hunting and give her the best quality of life. Even though I have no prognosis on how limiting this will be to our Lab, it's time to start considering another gun dog as the process can be long.

Being a somewhere between knowing nothing and being a novice, I was reading the online Gun Dog magazine website articles on gun dog breeds. Amarillo Mike's tales of the great Brits he runs has always captured my attention. I'm really considering a pointing breed this time around too.

But I stumbled on an article about French Pointers (Braque Francais) and I'm lured by the description of their demeanor and manners, hunting style/ability, size, and that short hair for the warm weather we live with in the southwest.

Anyone have any experiences around this relatively new to the US breed?

If a breed does its job, is easy to train, etc, it will be a popular breed. Niche breed dogs may work out well, but if I want to tip the odds in my favor, I'm going with a popular breed from a proven kennel.

Yeah - in my experience, there's a reason why rare breeds are rare.

And it's not because they're fantastic at their jobs.

A good, quality English Pointer or English Setter is a better bet.

OWD

Hi Chuck,
Most will suggest dog breeds they own and I'm no different. The best hunting dogs I have had the pleasure of hunting with have been German Shorthairs or English Setters. I would not own a dog with long hair as the time spent combing out dirt and burrs plus the balling up of snow between the toes (in Northeast) is just too much. I want a tough dog that I can hose off and is good around the house. Now that I endorse the German Shorthair I must say some can be kind of crazy so make sure you meet mom and Dad, my two are pretty mellow around the house but very driven in the field.
All that said no matter what breed you choose meet the parents and check out their personality and hunting prowess.Maybe getting a started pup will give you closer to the sure thing nothing worse then getting a new hunting dog that follows you around in the field or can't tell a Quail from a donut. Must of us still fall in love with the mutt and keep it even though it is pretty bad.
Good Luck,
Jeff G.

Oh Yeah if retrieving is wanted pick your pointing dog even more carfully as some don't seem interested at all. Again check out the parents. If you want a great retriever check out the Springer not a pointer but wonderful retrievers. Many GSP's are decent retrievers some English Setters I have seen are not.
IMHO
Jeff
Great genetics and lots of time with birds=good hunters

Jeff,
Thanks. GSPs are a consideration. In reading about these French Pointers, one of the things that seems to differ from the GSP is their great affection for people. Other than that there are more similarities to GSPs than differences, although the frog dog is smaller.

Somewhere in this mess, I have a book about quail hunting by one of my favorite outdoor writers, Charlie Waterman. Can't put my hand on it right now, but I remember his chapter on bird dogs where he said what he liked about pointers and setters; when he got to drathaars, vislas "and other strange dogs", his opinion was 'the less said the better'. I remembered that when I bought my present bird dog Willy, a German Wirehair, but did it anyway...Never Regretted it One Minute!...Geo

Good luck on your French Pointer if that's the way you go. I'm sorry to hear of the problems your lab is having. The arthritis medicine Chondroitin(sp?) kept my old Lab, Suwannee going for a few extra years.

Thanks for the encouraging words for both the lab and a future gun dog, George.

I'm going to see about getting over to some breeders to have a look at these dogs and maybe see a little field work with some pigeons, if possible. Temperment, especially friendlyness and tolerance is very important to me and my wife. Otherwise, I may have to build a kennel big enought for me and a grouchy dog.

Sorry to hear about the arthritis. My pointing lab has experienced the same type of problem. Glucosamine, Chondroitin and doggy aspirin have extended my dogs hunting days. Solid training, diet and a little chemistry can do wonders for your dog.

I prefer a dog that does all of the work, rather than having to jump in and flush the bird myself. I guess the I am lucky, my dog points, flushes on command, and retrieves. The only problem is she does not have the nose of a true pointer.

Good luck with your search and I hope your dog still has some year left.

Chuck, maybe the Bracco Italiano is an option for you. I don't know if there are breeders of the Bracco in the U.S. but I breed them for 25 yaers and I also hunt with them for 25 yaers.
The Bracco is different from all others pointing dogs. He is not a fast working dog like English pointers, setters, horthairs or wirehairs. He works more slowly and what he point is always in reach of your shot. Hey are more intelligent then most of other pointing dogs and easy to learn.
I lost my last Bracco in 2005, due to other living circomstances I not have place enough to keep dogs, but if I live more rural and have the space to keep one you cant count on it that I take again an Italian Bracco. If you want a wirehair version of the Bracco there is the Spinone.
Chuck if you want more info about Bracco's you can ask me, my E-Mail adress in in my profile. B.T.W. I judge them also and I was the first official breeder of Bracco's in Belgium.
I still have contact with a breeder who want only improuve the quality of the "working" Bracco.
Here is his web:
http://www.dicacciola.be/
Greetings from Belgium, Marc.

I'm certainly a shorthair fan as well. I've owned 4, all out of the same bloodlines, and all have been quite affectionate--although not necessarily "needy" of a lot of human contact, to make a distinction. But if you're looking for a short-haired pointing breed that is, in general, a little softer than shorthairs, you might want to consider a vizsla.

Larry,
I've been around one vizsla this past season, a young one untrained one. While I don't have near enough information on them, I may be looking for a faster hunting dog than them. More examples could change my mind as they have the personality traits and physical attributes I like.

I'm arranging to visit with a French Pointer breeder a few hrs away, possibly tomorrow. He said he has some video of live bird (wild) hunting of his dogs and I can see the sire and dam and some others. Pups are due in a few weeks.

Chuck,
Sorry to hear about your dog. That is a tough situaton in a young dog.
I've been around a few Braque Francais, some with different names depending on what region they were bred in. Most were very good dogs. Really check out the breeder, call on other breeders, talk to other owners. This is important as I have hunted with one that is very soft. While she can hunt, she is easily intimidated, especially around other dogs. This isn't the breeds fault. I've hunted with others that were just as good as you can get for a personal hunting dog. I say this as I don't trial, show or whatever, I just hunt with my dogs.
I've hunted with some fantastic Brittany's. Most are fantastic hunters and learn quick. I've hunted with the same dog from New Mexico to Canada.
I own setters and am in love with them, very intelligent strong hunters. I have seen some poor ones though. Again, check the breeder. I would go to some local trials and talk to the fellows there. They will give you some great information, plus they know where the dogs are.

Chris

Chuck, if I could I'd vote for an English setter or brittany if you want affection. Do you plan to train the dog yourself? If so these breeds may not be the best for your first as they tend not to allow as many mistakes as, say, a GSP. Shorthairs are generally tougher, and have been known to have attitude problems. I am a member of several dog forums and always see the my dog bit.... 9 times out of 10, it's a GWP or GSP. Trained tons of dogs steady to wing and shot, and force broke to retrieve. Dad did it for a living for 15 years, bet I've seen 1500+ dogs in my short life. Any questions feel free to give me a call, or send me an e-mail.

Steve,
My area of the country and the birds I hunt are often in warmer weather even during late season hunts. A short haired dog is almost a must...or they have to get buzzed, which is not out of the question. I love everything about the Brits and E-setters/Lewellens and think I could be happy with one, but for the long hair. The few I've been around were friendly and obedient beautiful companions.

Chris,
Thanks for relating your experience with that breed. I've talked to 3 breeders around the country. All 3 seemed to know each other and spoke well of each other. The description of the breed were all the same; great house dogs, fantastic in the field, great instinctive hunters for their owners. Two of the breeders are right here in Southern Calif and hunt not only what I hunt, but also in the same locations.

Chuck, Southern California has one of the oldest NAVHDA chapters
you should get in contact with them and see the variety of choices that are available to you in your area you may want to attend one of their tests and see the different breeds in action and talk " dog" people that hunt where you hunt
I judged a test there a few years ago at the High Desert Hunt club.....it was pretty warm

If you check the link below they have a training day tomorrow at Prado regional park in Chino CA

Certainly the place to meet the right people

CJ


http://socalnavhda.com/speedweb/site/index.php?site=NAVHDA&p=directors.php

Thanks Claudio. I just got off the phone with one of the breeders, who is also a NAVHDA member. We are meeting tomorrow up by Santa Barbara. We're going to put a couple of his dogs on the ground and look at some video. Taking my wife and the Lab to see the reaction of both. I'll try to get out to one of the training days at Prado as that is less than an hour drive from my house.

Chuck good to hear...you'll like the NAVHDA bunch
I wish I were going too...getting fed up of the cold up here

Best

CJ

Don't worry Claudio, Spring is officially starting. I've been sitting on my back patio this afternoon enjoying the 70f weather and watching flock after flock of Sandhill Cranes (turkeys) flying North way up high like they really mean it. Its funny, I always hear them before I look high enough in the sky to see the flocks...Geo

Geo...I'm glad it's starting somewher, we had a break the last couple of days it warmed up to about 10C and it started to melt
but last night the wind picked up again and this morning we woke up to -14 C and a whole bunch of new white stuff....I think we're not quite done yet

CJ

Chuck I think going to field trials is an excellent idea. Beside NAVHDA try to find some NSTRA trials too. And the AKC trials would be helpful. Talking to the dog people at the trials will be very helpful. I think you would get good information about both about breeders and breeds.

Best,


Mike

Thanks Mike.
I was going to call the NAVHDA chapter Pres, Bob Worrell (CJO's link) because when I was speaking with a breeder of these dogs, he indicated that Bob had trained a few of these. Bob was the handler for Hi-Desert Hunt Club and apparently still guides on that club/Tejon Ranch occasionally as well as trains commercially for this area. Bob sounds like he'd have a perspective worth hearing.

George,
That is just plain mean. I get the same weather as Claudio. I'm not sure I know what 70 feels like. February is one of our coldest months. My brother said the daffodils are blooming where he lives.
Chuck, I hope you find a good dog. Nothing like having a puppy around the house!
Chris

Chuck, sorry your little girl is having problems; that's one great dog! Not sure you CAN do better for an all-around hunting dog than a smallish Lab [censored] bred and trained for upland hunting....

You might contact member Mike Cross (I'll shoot you his email email if/when I find it) for some perspective on hunting with Brits in CA; unless my memory is failing me he hunts a pair of French Brittanies here and also in Baja--"sticker city." Maybe he has a solution to the sticker/foxtail/cactus problem in longhairs.

Good that you're paying attention to the "house dog" side of your perspective new hunting partner; as we discussed in the truck, you have to be able to live with the critter about 340 non-hunting days a year, as well as in the field. I've met both Vislas and GSPs that were bird-finding machines, with all the personality of a machine....COLD dudes.

Somebody mentioned Italian Spinones. My old friend the Pasta King of Portland has a couple. Nice pets but really big for a truck/house dog, and would definitely need a buzz cut in SouCal. And they labor under some genetic difficulties; just not enough of them left in the gene pool after WWII, which was pretty hard on the scarcer breeds of dogs in rural Europe.

Hunting for a hunting dog is almost as much fun as hunting with one!

Sorry about the "censorship" above; my tendency to use the Anglo Saxon for female canids shows my age and conservatism, I guess. I can only plead that I NEVER have used it to describe humans of either sex....

In regard to burrs in the hair of the French Brittanies - I hunt four of them and it takes 10 minutes to deburr all four with a steel brush and scissors at the end of the day. I do cut hair out with the burr but it doesn't seem to hurt their looks.

I enter the NSTRA field trials and dogs that cover ground AND stay in sight seem to do well. Almost all the people in NSTRA in my region are amatuers. By that I mean they don't make their living guiding, breeding, training or handling dogs. I don't mean the other associations aren't amatuer and I have no NAVHDA experience.

Several years ago I took two of my Brittanys down to the cactus country. The first night I spend an hour and a half pulling out cactus needles. The second 10 minutes - they had learned quickly what to avoid.

Best,

Mike

Well, I went out to Santa Ynez and met the breeders. They are an older (well maybe not as old as AM or even me) couple and like all owners, love their breed.

Saw their sire and dam and one of last year's (April) pups. We put them out together in a local field of about 100 acres and took a stroll while we talked about the breed. He had a training dummy and the dogs worked it well. The pup hadn't been force fetched and would retrieve and drop it at his feet. Still not bad for a pointer that had not been trained to retrieve. We watched some video of the three dogs hunting a few weeks ago. They looked like they had good range and speed, not big E-pointer horseback stuff, just looked right for a foot hunter and they had great dicipline, even the pup. Although the male looked just like a E-pointer to me but for the docked tail. He was 60lbs of muscle. The female dam was 37 lbs and when not pregnant.

When I get home, I'll see about posting some pics I took today of them.

Pics
The skinny one is the pup and the other is the sire.

The pup retrieves enthusiastically and moves like mercury .

Chuck, the reason I suggested navdha in the first place is what you said about being a novice at it.... the whole navdha philosophy is to teach people to teach their dogs

Nice looking pup, looks like you're on the right track.

CJ

For longhaired critters in the briars and such, I use the cheapest, unscented, no dye hair conditioner, just rub it on before you turn them loose, works wonders!

Is that the standard tail length ? Looks a bit short to me.

Apparently, they dock the tails per the tradition. Otherwise, I suspect you couldn't tell the difference between that male and a E-pointer.

Cute as they were, I still couldn't bring myself to buy a freshly welped pup. I asked to buy the yearling, but they declined.

So, I'm talking to George Hickox and Ronnie Smith about finished dogs. I may have to cash some stock options to do that! English Pointers.

Just did that reasoning with a new yellow Lab pup, Chuck. He's eleven weeks. I talked with some trainers about him, and realized I would have, at the very least, $5K in training. Decided to do it, again, myself. I've done it before, I can do it again.

Five big ones will buy lots of shells and dog food.

Stan

Stan,
I really envy you guys that have the experience, time and grounds to train one. It's just not in my cards. I live in the suburbs south of LA and just letting a dog off a leash is a $180 fine. There's some formal training grounds about an hour from me, if the traffic is light, two hrs if it's rush hour.

With my dog, the first year was had direct costs of about $5k not counting the cost of the dog. We encountered an elbow problem that cost $3500 of surgery, xrays, meds, etc., to fix, and a number of normal smaller/maintenance vet issues, toss in the dog food, equipment, etc., (which my wife kept copious, meticulous notes of) and there you have it. That didn't include fuel costs, stacks of books on dogs or such. The next year, I attended a Hickox class, which cost me $1500 with me and my wife, plus lodging, meals, for 5 days, 2000 miles of driving and fuel costs, etc., etc.. Then there was the DVDs, new training gear, super special E-collar, bird launchers. Probably a $3500 or more trip in the end.

So, while initial costs of a trained dog are pretty big numbers, I see it as either a lump sum outlay for a known dog capability vs. installments amounting to similar total costs and having me do the training, definitely resulting in a less capable dog than any professional could offer. Anyway, I have the wife convinced of this. So don't wreck that for me.

Another breed you might consider: the Braque Obama. Not sure where they come from, lots of melodious barking, no bite. Short curly black hair.

I had to replace a dog in the last year. Ask around before you pay a kennel big $$ for a trained dog. You'd be surprised how many people have their circumstances change and need to move a well-trained dog in the 1-4 year old age group. When they do, the price is often $1000 or less. Tell your friends, your taxidermist, your vet that you need one, mention whatever breeds you are interested in, and sooner or later you will get a call or two. It only took a few months for me.
I strongly recommend glucosamine chondroitin for your current dog. Don't waste money on the veterinary version; get the Costco 1200/1500 tables for people, cut them in half, and feed one-half in the morning with food. You will see the difference after a few weeks.
Finally, I live in Arizona, so I know the need to have short haired dogs and cover ground. English pointer is the way to go.
Germans look close, but aren't in my experience. But I am prejudiced after 5 generations of English....

PFD,
I've been doing the people glucosomine with my lab since we got her just as preventative maintenance. Lately, I've upped her dose with the Costco stuff (I use it too) and my vet told me to find some with not only MSM, but also HA (hyaluronic acid) a.k.a "joint fluid". I couldn't find glucosomine with both so I'm getting a separate supplement. Our vet also recommended we start her on Adequan which is an IM injectable form of glucosomine. This is apparently more effective in getting to the joints in larger quantity and therefore more effective in building soft tissue. We start those injections today with an 8 dose over 4 week start and then to a maintenance program of about 1 a month depending on need. I'm using Tramadol for pain control, which is much less impact to kidneys and such as the normal NSAIDs.







Gil,
I looked into that breed. The problem is that they always hunt left and ignore everything on the right.

Not to mention the pedigree verification issue.

That and they like to give all the game to the scavengers.

I don't think I could stand to have a dog called "Lefty"

Another trait, I understand, is that they carry their tail between their legs.....

Condsider the Small Munsterlander Pointer?? There is a roan adult female available here:


http://www.trupointkennel.com/started-dog-for-sale.html

Just another option.

Got'a chuckle out'a the B. Obama gundog.......
Gary

Come on, all dogs are Republicans.

Isn't it obvious - they crap all over the place and make other people clean it up.

OWD

Male dogs lean left. They have San Francisco values. Male dogs hump basically anything, anytime, anywhere. From other male dogs, to cats, to human legs, furniture, etc....they hump it all without shame. Lefties to the core.

I would say "Brevity is the soul of wit," but I wouldn't want to be accused of being Polonius.

Or a pedantic boob.

Ha.

OWD

Chuck, if you would want to consider a "started" pointer I know of several available from reputable people here. They are Elhew line bred, and plenty trained enough for hunting, knowing basic commands such as whoa, heel, hey (for changing direction), and here. These are "honest" enough to hold birds for the shot (broke to "wing") and will be like Scotch-better with age and hunting expirience. Most in the 1000 range. I would guarantee just about any of them as they are from guys I've known my whole bird dog life. I have a couple setters available as well. I certify my hips, eyes, and dispostion. Contact me if interested. I believe you would enjoy a pointing breed.

Steve,
I'm working a few references right now. I have enough feelers out for the moment. A preacher that trains Elhew pointers for fun has a line on some finished dogs he knows. I have inquiries with several other trainers as well.

They are Liberal Democrat dogs when they are born.
And they become republican dogs about 4 weeks later. Thats when they finally open their eyes!!!

This is spot on, or as the great Sir Winston Churchill said (paraphrased):

'A man in his youth who is not a liberal has no heart, a man in adulthood who is not a conservitive has no brain'

Gary

I'm sure glad I don't have this dog around...
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=P9Fyey4D5hg

That dog does so much it would make me look bad to my wife...er I mean worse.

Should I be concerned about a preacher supplying a hunting dog? If I say "whoa dammit" am I likely to get bit or the dog just run off?

Use caution in financial dealings with any overly religious person. In my experience, they are some of the worst crooks around.

Chuck:
Buy what you fall in love with. You will work better with that pup and you are going to have it for 10 to 14 years. For me that has always been Setters and GSP but there are plenty of breeds that will get the job done. For warm weather and style a English Pointer would be hard to beat but I am not sure how affectionate they are, never owned one.

I would talk with a number of renowned trainers before going with an exotic breed. They should be able to give you a honest read on the breed and will not have a vested interest in the breed.

Mike

English Pointers tend not to be the most affectionate critters. They have the "2 minute" rule IMO. That being they can't sit still for more than 2 minutes. Bob Wehle, the father of Elhew pointers, bred quite intensively for all charecteristics. One being affection/compatability. If you get an English Pointer, get an Elhew dog.