Is there a source for modern production 16ga paper hulls?


--Tinker

I have looked around for 16 gauge components, but have found no source for paper hulls. I will be watching to see if anyone has a source.

C Man

I have a few boxes of western super x 16ga shells that I have been using for hunting. I would be willing to use them up and sell the hulls. They are not modern, but might serve the purpose.

Let me know if interested,

Loren

I checked the Eley and Kent Gamebore websites and both have 12g paper hull loads but not 16.

You might want to give RST Shotshells a call at (603) 447-6770. At the UP SXS Classic, they discussed plans for manufacturing both their "standard" and "short" shells with paper hulls for the "ultimate" in nolstagic olfactory pleasures (next to Hoppes #9).

I'm not sure that anything smells better than a fresh-fired paper shell, even Hoppe's #9. Unless it's a tired setter with his head on your lap on the way home from a good day.

Hello Tinker,

Cheditte manufactures 16 ga paper hulls. Graf & Sons are the importer. Beware, they only get a shipment in every 4 to 6 months. I beleive the next one is due in October. If you give Mike Graf a call (1-800-531-2666)He can probably get them on that shipment.

They also offer 12 gauge and 20 gauge paper hulls.

I hope this helps!

So you just need a roll crimper and overshot cards, felt and fiber wads, shot wraps, and the right powder, and you can recreate the past...

C Man

Thanks guys


My interest here is to try them out in the 16b double rifles with black powder.

I'm more interested in trying new production paper hulls if I can get them than old ones. Reproducable results are what I'm after, and I'd be converting them for pinfire use too.
The brass cases I've made work, but they need die rework after each firing. I'd like to see if paper will seal better in the chambers (I bet it will...) and how many reloads I can get with my black powder, special wad, and lead ball loads.

I dropped a message with Mike Graf to see if he really can get 16b Paper hulls and what the price and lead time would be.

We'll just see


--Tinker

I spoke with Mike Graf this morning.
Great guy, he had a lot of information to share with me on the manufacture of the paper hulls, he'd recently been out at the production facility and had been given the full plant tour.
Neat stuff.

Only hitch though is that if I want to make an order for 16b paper hulls, I'll have to order 50,000 of them.
Yikes.

Now, If I could get the factory to get them set up as -pinfire- 16b paper hulls, we might be on to soomething.
I'd pony up for a thousand of them.
I'd just need another 49 guys to join me in the order who also wanted a thousand 16b pinfire paper hulls.

Might be possible.
I didn't bother asking what 50,000 hulls would cost at that kind of quantity, just thought of that as I was typing this note.
It might just be worth the effort.

Hm.
Modern production paper pinfire hulls in the 21st Century.
I wonder how the 'patent on pinfire hulls' the guys out at hammer double company claim to have would affect a production run out in europe or england...


--Tinker

Take a few minutes and find out what 50,000 cost. You might be able to split the buy with several others. I suspect the price will be in the .10 each area. Worth finding out and posting on the 16 ga society web site.

Another way to sell them would be on Ebay in lots of 100 to 500. Fellow sold 38,000 wads that way not long ago. Put them up first as a total package for $200.00 and did not get a bid. I think that people were afraid of the freight more than the number of wads. Then sold them in 1-2,000 wad lots and got about 35.00 per lot plus freight. If you did that you might end up with 10,000 for no money invested after selling the rest.

Tink,
I never can remember, isn't there a 16g bbs? If so, I'd think we could rally enough interest to cover a 50,000 count order. I'm in for 1k.

Tinker,

If they are a full 2.75" with highish brass....count me in for 1-2k...as long as they are not pink! Either Russ's group or the 16ga BBS managed to get Rem to cough up some target wads for the 16 that had previously been unavailable to reloaders. Was a pretty good minimum order on that as well, believe they are already on the SECOND special order?

Could be more demand than you think.

Best,
Mark

I'll try to sneak a call out to Mike tomorrow and ask him to look into what the price would be for a run of 50k

I'll be asking for a request to the factory for some of those without the primer hole too! I somehow doubt they'll accomodate that though, the tooling to get them together probabally relies on the primer hole for something...
I'll ask about getting them without the 209 primer one way or the other. That might -at least- reduce the cost, might also lubricate the customs process all the while, considering there wouldn't be anything that goes 'pop' associated with the deal.


If anyone here's a member of the 16b list spoken of above in this thread, invite someone from over there to take a peek at this thread. I'd be happy to continue in this pursuit if it looks like we can get something together that'll work out for all of us.


--Tinker

I'd be interested if there were no primers. Living in Alaska the hazmat freight would kill me.

I posted a link at 16ga.com to this thread

This thread was mentioned on the 16ga list...so...
I'd likely go for 1k if the price is reasonable. I'd prefer them w/o primers [as was mentioned above] to keep the shipping cost down.

I was under the impression that primed hulls were not subject to hazmat...only time I recall paying the fee was for bulk primers and powder.

And yup....I could be wrong!

Umm....this might explain it a bit better....looks like if it's gotta go by air it's hazmat?

http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/products.asp?dept=184

Best,
Mark

Hello folks,

Speaking from experience, the Cheditte paper hulls are only available primed. (Cheditte makes thier own primer) Unfortunatly this means they must be shipped via ground (in this case via ship to the East coast then ground from there to Graf's) There is no HAZMAT fee. Though they must be sent via ground marked as ORMD

From what I understand, If your ordering 50,000 or more they will do just about anything for you. Color, length, stamp etc.

I would expect a cost of approx 12-14 cents per hull plus shipping from Grafs. (UPS or FEDX ground)

Best regards!

P.S.
I believe thier standard 16 ga. color is black.

Pink. ....c'mon what diff? A visable color would be helpful. Aside from that, as long as they're not that same color as the Fed papers, I have no quarrel. I need to be able to distinguish them from a 12g Fed, that's all.

Just got off the phone with Mike Graf


Looks like the dime per hull at this quantity is close to the mark, with or without the primer.
We can have them printed, no special headstamp though. We'd need to specify the length.
Lead time is about ten months from now, in that the production run wouldn't happen till january or february, yadda yadda...


I'll be having him post a bid request to the factory some time later in the week.


Comments?


--Tinker

Tinker, I can't get them if they are primed. UPS says they do ground to Alaska but it is really by air. Primers and air freight will not mix. I'd like to order 1000. My suggestion for the printing is "Sweet sixteen" spelled out. 2 1/2"

2 3/4". Trimming to other lengths is easy and possible, making them longer is tougher.

Put 10% on the actual costs, solicit Dave to allow them to be put up on this site for sale before delivery with the 10% profit to go to a charity.

2-3/4", blue papers. I'll take a thousand low brass hulls - unprimed.

C Man

I also would be interested in a thousand!
Thank you, Milton

I think Chuck H has the right idea. I would go in on that.

Pete

I'm in for 1K too. 2.75, blue, low brass unprimed. Sweet Sixteen spelled out would be cool also.

Forgot to add, no primers. It will just be easier all the way around for everyone with out them.

Pete

Does the primer pocket from this maker conform to US primer maker's dimensions?

Gonna be a smidge loose, unless by not ever having an oversize primer stuffed into them they might be tighter?

Never had 'em unprimed...yet.

Actually never had a major problem with American primers in the Cheddite/Fiocchi hulls, couple here and there a bit too loose fer confidence, quick peen with BP's tool and all good. Tighten up nice after firing anyway. Usually use Cheddite primers though as I seem to recall a test where they had the most consistant energy, would not assume that means they are going to give most consistant results in actual loads but should be a start?

YMMV,
Mark

I wonder if we can spec the primer hole?

I too would purchase 1000. How about purple for the color? 2 3/4" (70 mm) or 67.5 mm would make the most sense in hull length. No doubt other members of the 16 ga. reloading group would be interested in paper hulls as well. We have over 300 members. I will post a link to this thread on our chatroom. Russ

Count me in for 1000 also.

any configuration is fine.

Patrick

Looks like this will be easier than I thought.

Great.

I haven't talked to Dave yet, (Hi Dave!) but I like the idea of charity funding from this arrangement if it comes together.
I don't expect to hear from Mike till next week. The manufacturer may take at least a few days to get back to him.

Russ-
Thanks for passing the word on to the 16b group.
Do you know if anyone over there is shooting bore rifles?


--Tinker

Put me in for a thousand, unprimed, Chukerman's blue.....actually, any color would be alright with me........ Grant.

Please count me in for 1,000. Any color

I'm in for 1000. 2.75" blue would be nice.

Thanks
Pete

Ya, I'd take a 1000, too. 2 3/4-any color.

Do we have load data for these hulls?

Count me in for 1000 hulls, too!

Dave E. will we see you at Warrens?

I'll take a thousand. Blue would be my first choice.

Lorin

I also will take 1,000, blue color sounds good; would prefer 67.5mm, but will take 70mm

Have you contacted Hull cartridge company?
I know they do 16g Paper hulls, I use them.

I would take 1,000. 2-3/4" unprimed. Blue is good. How about a dark navy with gold or yellow lettering.

AG

Salopian

Do you have contact info for them?


--Tinker

Wow, that's nearly 20k as it is.
Closer to 40k if we all take 2000 hulls.
I think it's gonna work out just fine any way we cut it.

No primers seems to be the best way to go. That way anyone's load recipe will work with whatever primers they can get ahold of.
I'll be plugging the primer pockets with cap anvils, swaging the rims down in diameter, and drilling them for firing pins anyway.
As for color, I'll just have Mike Graf send me examples of Cheddite paper colors and go from there.

Hey Dave, you seeing what's going on here?
Got any comments?


--Tinker

I just dropped a PM in Dave's mailbox, hopefully he'll come join the discussion...


--Tinker

I would be in for at least a 1000 :>)

I'm interested in some paper 16-ga also.

Anyone with experience know how many load-cycles we can expect out of low-pressure 16-ga in a paper hull?

Thanks.

BM,
On my Fed papers at 2 3/4" length shooting in a 2 9/16" chamber, I get about 3 loads at about 6500 psi/1150fps and the inside of the crimp area starts to delaminate and loose pieces. I haven't determined if it's from shooting 2 3/4" in a shorter chamber or it's just normal. Some of the guys at the range talked about a hot mandrel to remelt the wax that binds the laminated paper to revitalize the hulls.

I will go for 1,000. 2000 if they can be made to say :
"Go to hell Diane Feinstein"

Yes Sir!

Always a fun time!

I could use 1,000 longer is better they're easy enough to cut. I roll my Federal 12ga hulls and they seem to hold up better. I've been using the plastic O/S wads and they are supposed to break, perhaps that makes a difference.
Frank

interesting purchase here fellows.
would be interested in 1000, but would need them in 65 or 67mm for my old fox. based on what i have read, one can slide by with plastic 2 3/4, but not paper. a few folks have mentioned trimming, can someone advise on how it is done and if easier/cleaner than plastic?
thanks

Tinker,
http://www.hullcartridge.co.uk
Speak to Sue Bontoft give her some idea of the quantity.If you have problems give me a PM.
Hull have a Royal Warrant, so if they are good enough for my friend Lizzy, they're good enough for me.

FRLauer and anyone else who asks. You and trim them from 69mm to 5mm if you wish.

Here are links to some unique products.

A trimmer
http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/prodinfo.asp?number=TRIM

Roll Crimper
http://shop2.mailordercentral.com/bpicart/departments.asp?dept=56

Vegetable wadding
http://www.circlefly.com/body_index.html

There are articles on both of those sites about loading that should prove helpful.


Tinker, you are doing a fine job. What a great idea. I just picked up a 16ga sterlingworth. So I will be looking forward to these hulls.

Pete

I would also like to purchase 1000 16ga 2.75 paper hulls w/o primers @ $0.10 - $0.12 apiece when available.

Salopian-

I haven't contacted the hull cartridge company yet, but just looking at thier list of offerings, it seems that they don't offer any ammunition in 16b with a paper hull.
I should write an email to them and see what happens.
Do you know that they do offer 16b paper hulls?

One way or the other, it's nice to see that I'm not the only one who wants paper 16b hulls.
It's even nicer to see that we'll all have a chance to get some fresh current manufacture stock of them too.


--Tinker

PeteM,
thanks. i trim plastic a lot, but have never trimmed paper. its been a long time since i have even had the pleasure to use paper and dont recall if there is any coating/wax on the edge of the paper at the mouth. ie, if i trimmed them, would they need to be re-coated?
thanks again. love the knowledge on this board.

I like Birdawg's idea of a pithy message on the shells.

I like "ODD Old Damascus Diehard"

I will take 1000 hulls too.

Thanks,
Kevin

Tinker,
I shot some on the 28th of June they are superb, black paper case high brass, a very good performing and a good looking product to boot.
I will contact Sue next week and see what the situation is regarding availability and price.

Nope, not that I am aware.

Pete

Tink,
I counted about 25 or thereabouts that have said they'd buy at least 1k, some said 2k. I'd probably go with 2k, up from my orig committment of 1k. That says you're already at about 30k. Piece o' cake from here.

Salopian-

I think it would be good for all of us here for you to take a peek into the possibilities in the UK.
The more choices the better.

For what I'm working on, I don't think higher brass is necessarily a good thing.
I'm looking at paper for three reasons, and note I'm running black powder in my 16b rifles.
-hull thickness
-no plastic fouling at throat of my rifles
-excellent gas seal at chamber walls

I have a sense that low brass hulls will withstand as much pressure as my rifles will handle without a problem, while offering a longer cylinder of paper. I'm assuming that a longer cylinder of paper will offer a better possibility of making a better gas seal.
Do also note that my cases get trimmed to about 1-5/8" for the rifles. Not much there but powder, a compact wad and seal card, and roundball.
These are short chambered guns, and I want to get as much paper in the mix as possible.


Chuck-

It does look like we're getting there pretty quickly doesn't it!
I've been looking at this come together and really, any way we slice it, we're looking at an eight to ten month lead time.
I think I can afford to save up a few extra nickels and take two or three thousand hulls for myself.
This collective gesture might also give the hull manufacturers and distributers something to think about on the topic of paper hulls. We might actually end up seeing more of them on the shelves some time in the future.


--Tinker

I am in for 1k. sounds good any color
Thanks
Pete

I have quite a few paper varieties in 12 bore and cannot remember ever seeing a low brass paper hull, all were higher in my limited experience.

Kevin-

I have paper hulls in a wide array of brass heights, from very short to quite high.
I think Mike Graf said that the brass will be in the neighborhood of 8mm long.
When I hear from him next week I'll ask him for some details on what kind of brass height options there are, but as I recall he said in the first conversation, with paper it's relatively low.

--Tinker

If these become available, I'd start reloading the 16 for all my hunting needs.

I'm in for 1,000 also.

Good luck

Mike

So... is anyone going to make this happen? Order / payment time?

Loading data? I have a little data on 16 gauge papers gleaned from old manuals, etc. I also have fiber wads, Kwik-sert shot wraps, R-16 wads, etc. all in 16 gauge. Would be happy to develop a 1oz. load, if I could get Chuck to pressure test it.

Ideas?

C Man

i know i would be in for 1K or more for the right price. the paper i load in my 12 are just sweet to shoot and i could get that for my 16 that would be great..tony

Chuckarman-

This is indeed in the works.
So far, there's been conversation with the US importer of the manufacturer's goods, a suggested price point was given, some basic details were left with the importer, and the importer has sent a bid request to the manufacturer.

The importer, Graf&Sons, notes that there is going to be a minimum 8 month lead time on this in that the manufacturer won't start a production run until some time around January-February of 2007.
When he gets the bid from the manufacturer, he'll get back to me with a relatively firm price and a better sense of how soon we can expect product.
From there I figure we can pick a color (or mabye more than one, I just don't know right now) and length.
At that time we can arrange some kind of payment plan, either among us or with the importer, once we know exactly what the cost will be.

If anyone else has a different source for 16b paper hulls, I'm still interested in hearing about it. From my experience, it's usually good to have more than one vendor to choose from.

If it comes down to us all having to arrange our funds in one place, then pay the importer all at once, I'm perfectly fine with someone else handling the administration of payment on this deal.
Any takers there?


--Tinker

I would like a 1000 too.
Any color is fine with me.
Pete

I was looking at Chedites website a while back they don't list 16 bore paper hull.
Is this going to be a special run ?
L.F.

Yes, this will be a special production order.


--Tinker

This 16 bore thing sounds like a good idea...a "group buy".

I would be happy to assist as needed...maybe we can have the pink? hulls marked gunshop.com!

Tinker:

Count me in for 2K.

Please not pink!!!

If we all decide to go with a markup with the overage going to a charity, they could be marked "Shell out for a good cause"

Cmon, I know it'll make you smile every time you look at one.

Pink?
Mabye we can get them in a neon pink so they're easier to find in the field.
Great idea Dave!
I don't get this kind of chance often to publicly appreciate our leadership here at Gunshopdotcom
You're tops!



Good on Chuck to call out charity on this plan too.

Anyone got a suggestion for the pet cause on this one?
Shall we simply push the funds into the Gunshopdotcom charity slush fund?


--Tinker

Our group would be happy to help develop loads for these hulls. We have plenty of data for plastic cheddite hulls that should work just fine in the paper cheddite hull, presuming internal volumes are nearly identical. I suspect the Gualandi and B&P wads would be the best choice for 3/4, 7/8 and 1 oz loads. The SP-16 would work well for heavier payloads and bismuth. Could even make a fiber wad load for those wanting truly tradition shells. Russ

I'd definitely buy 1k

I had posted the same question a few weeks ago and received no response so thanks Tinker for taking the time to ferret this out.

Count me in for a thousand.

I'm partial to the deep red of the old Winchester paper shells but any color other than black or neon pink will be fine with me.

I knew I had bought that old Lyman roll crimp tool a couple years ago for a good reason.

I guess if this goes through I will have to break out that (I think) old pacific electric heat shell conditioner
Pete

Count me in for 1,000 also. Prefer purple color.

Talked to Mike Graf again this morning.

I've seen requests for numerous different colors here on the thread, seen requests for anything but a number of colors too.
Mike suggests Black.
I'm sure I could think of fifteen reasons why black would or wouldn't be a good idea, and really when it comes down to it, I'm not going to flinch if the manufacturer will or won't make them in any particular color.
Mike noted that they just don't like to make the paper hulls, and might actually step on a color choice of their own anyway.
So, how about black?

Also, he's imressed that there is so much call for the 16b paper hulls, he's thinking of actually stocking some himself.
They'll cost something around twice what the bulk order per-hull price would be if he actually goes for it and orders some for his stock.

Who wants to handle the accounting on a bulk-purchace order?
Would someone open some kind of paypal-type account and go from there, or what?


Remember that the hulls won't go into the manufacturing stage until late Jan/Feb, but still, we need to account for who's in the deal, and also mark the committment to the deal with funds.

I've gone into this pursuit so far, gotten the possibility of the production run and the price number from Mike, but I'm not interested in dealing with the money aspect of the deal.

Who's gonna step up and create a payment/accounting system for this?


--Tinker

Tinker,
put me down for 1000, but please make a plea for anything but black, heck even pink. well no not pink.

Lauer-

Tell me about your color stipulation.
In my discussion with Mike, we covered a handful of reasons why or why not to use any particular color.
We had a bit of a laugh over it, but really if we all get together here on an order, it's going to be one color only.
The manufacturer is going to have to have a long run of specially made paper tubing made up. From what Mike said, they're only going to want to do one color.

Why not black?
I think in the past, Chedite had made the 16b paper hulls in somewhat of a salmon color. I'd be fine with that...
really, any color is going to be OK with me.


Let's all cover this color issue now, and get ourselves settled on something in that respect.


--Tinker

Tinker,
The main concern I have is making it a sufficiently distinctive color that it won't be confused with my 12ga ammo. I only load Federal papers which are red. But I buy Federal plastic ammo which is maroon and Rem which is black or STS green or gold. Yellow is for 20ga, I think all here will agree not to make them yellow. That's all I have for the debate on color. Pink with purple polkadots is o.k. with me after that, in fact, prefereable. One last thing, I think they should be marked "16" somewhere boldly.

I'd prefer purple.

But, If they make them Sky Blue Pink, it's OK with me!

Blue, orange, or green - not to be confused with 12 gauge (red), or 20 gauge (yellow). Prefer blue frankly... but I can usually spot a 16 of whatever color.

C

I don't think you can make them yellow I think that color is reserved strictly for 20 gauge. I think I read it is a safety issue, its the only shell that is made in only one color. I like purple,but will take what ever color is decided on.
Pete

Tinker,
I'd like a 1000 too. I can't handle the project management. I'd like purple too.

As for color, anything but black. Prefer purple or blue. Would this be a lower capacity hull due to the extra wall thickness and does it have a base wad? If so, it sounds like the perfect 1 oz. hull with an SG16 wad.

I'll take 1000 also. Enough 16 ga shooters at the local Izaak Walton to make short work of that.

Prefer purple also. Can't recall any other gauge wearing that color. Second choice would be blue.
But, hey! a 16 shooter will take anything available and be darned happy with it.

Jeff

I'm with the other guys - anything but black. #1 - purple; #2 - blue; #3 - salmon. With an order of 50K you'd think that we would get our choice of color.

Fiocchi 12ga

Fiocchi's are a kinda transluscent lavender, aren't they? I think we're talking a more MANLY PURPLE.

Ok

I actually really like the idea of polka dots!

I also have been thinking that the only print on them should be a very prominent 16b on the paper, down near the brass.

Also, with a little coaching on setup, I could get a paypal-or-something account set up for this too.
I just need some help with logistics on that part of this arrangement


What about plain white paper printed with nothing but 16b ?


--Tinker

Annnnnd we have a winner!

I too would order 1000. Has anyone stepped up to the plate for the accounting.

Jerry

PS Tinker, Thanks agian for the offer of your dog. I lost your PM so I couldn't respond directly to you.

Tinker
The only thing I don't like about the white is after a while they will look so dirty from handling and reloading them but if that is the color I still in.OMO
Pete

I'm new to this forum and have been directed here by fellow 16 Gauge Society members. Is someone from this forum actually collecting committment ($) to create an order from Graf's for paper 16's? If so, please let me know what I have to do.

I talked to Mike at Graf's yesterday, thinking he might have an order in process but found out he does not. Mike sees the interest out there, and seems very willing to satisfy it. However, he has nothing going on with paper 16's now. He is currently assessing the market to see if he should inventory paper 16's as an offering in his store. No matter who orders, it would be at least a year before any hulls show up, such is the situation with manufacturing response to such a small order (50,000 min) in a low production gauge. It seems Mike has already supplied a bunch of 65mm paper 16's to shotshell manufacturers. He also reports the only color available is black. He also says users should strongly consider case length before order, citing difficulties trimming paper vs. plastic,

I suggest those interested in paper 16's call or e-mail Mike at Graf's and show interest and possibly committment. If interest is sufficient, my guess is he will place an order and sell them retail.

If someone in this forum really is collecting committment to order, I'm interested in 1000 hulls. My color preference is Blue, then green, then red. I prefer no writing on the hulls. Primed is good. For length, my first preference is 65mm, otherwise, 70mm (2 3/4") would do.

I still like blue or purple if poky dots are out.
WHITE? I shoot in the snow and sometimes drop stuff.

Mike has indeed fielded quite a few calls about this since I started this thread.

In short, there isn't an order form at grafandsons
This thread is a conversation discussing interest in sixteen bore paper hulls.
We're discussing the nature of our interest and there are quite a few notes from individuals that they want 16b paper hulls of *right now* manufacture.

I have spoken with Mike.
He and I have been discussing this. Read the entire thread and you'll see that we (the group of consumers interested in paper 16b hulls) are on the verge of organizing our money and committment so as to hand over a bulk order to Mike for a custom order of 50,000(at least, mabye more...) 16b paper hulls.

Mike doesn't necessarily want to stock this item, but he's starting to consider doing so.
If he does, expect to pay at least twice what we're looking to get these hulls for via this bulk order.

As for color... heck, I'm not even going to address that at this point as it's just not an issue at all any way you look at it, where we're at right now is standing in the space of needing to organize our intent to purchace and our money.

Length?
Cutting a paper hull is another complete non-issue as far as I'm concerned. Order them as long as the longest standard chambers out there and trim as needed. No rocket science there at all.

As much as I want this to happen, I really don't want to end up in a management snafu just to get some hulls.
Too much interface with Mike Graf may well kill his interest in providing us with the opportunity to get such a deal on these hulls.


--Tinker

Tinker,
sorry for the delayed response. my adversion to black is simply asthetics and avoiding 12 and 20 colors. preference would be blue or purple, but color is way down on my list.
just getting paper hulls would be a wonderful thing in itself.
would like to up my stake to 1500 for record keeping purposes.
Rgds
Fred

Thanks Fred-

I'm not really sure what direction to take this thing.

I've heard a lot of cursing about PayPal on this list.
Seems they're pretty darn anti-gun

Is there some other site we can use to organize funds where the tracking and accounting would be visible to everyone, making sure all concerned can feel good about banking a hundred or two bucks for this cause?
Might there be a venue where we can actually earn some interest on our little pile of money, doing so making our contribution to the charity cause a little sweeter?


--Tinker

Why can't we just pay Graf's individually? I'm sure he has Quickbooks or Peachtree or some other accounting software that is capable of receiving funds from multiple customers on an invoice, until it is paid in full, at which time he places the order. People could pay him by check so he wouldn't have to eat the 2 or 3% credit card processing fee. It doesn't seem that difficult to me. If he doesn't want to go through that, then he must not want the business very badly.

If we can decide to do this with PayPal, I will volunteer to handle that end. I know paypal, I have had a PayPal account for 3 or 4 years and it has always worked for me. I will set up PayPal account in whatever name we decide to call it, (this can take up to 3-4 weeks), the money can collect in the account, I will get automatic receipts and so will the people that pay into the account. I see two problems with using PayPal. #1 they will charge 2-3% to use it. #2 whoever we need to pay the money to will have to take PayPal, or I will have to withdraw the money and write a check or buy a money order.

marklart is right.

Mike Graf doesn't want the business very badly...
:rolleyes:
Look.
It's like this.

Mike is offering to do us all a favor by getting a minimum order together to the manufacturer *AND* offer us the price of TEN CENTS A HULL via ONE BULK ORDER.

Once we get Mike Graf's accounting, warehousing, and distribution infrastructure involved the cost doubles.
That's if he ends up wanting to stock 16b paper hulls.
For a guy like Mike Graf, fifty thousand hulls isn't much. He orders reloading components by units of MILLIONS.

He's being a right dandy and helpful fellow by offering us the opportunity to
--Pay for and order, ONE BULK PALLET of hulls *On A Special Order Basis* With One Payment, then Get It Out Of His Hair at the dime per hull price.

If he's got to hold the hands of fifty or more guys who all want to speak up for their assumed right to color choice, length, and brass height -- and printed with whatever plasm they feel appropriate for this purpose -- in Gold print because their pastor's wife said it should be that way or something like that...

...Do you really think he's going to want to deal with it?

I don't, and in my last telephone conversation with him he said that if he had to handle each and every purchacer it'd quickly go to his choice of color, length, and brass height (that's where the notion of the color Black came from, by the way...)
And the price would double in a hot second.

And that's if he feels like stocking them.

I hope some of that makes sense.


And Casper, I'm on with the money if you want to handle the paypal account.
Might want to wait a moment here to see if there are enough guys who'd be into going with paypal to make it happen.
I have no reservation whatsoever.
I just want some darn 16b paper hulls of current manufacture.


--Tinker

Tinker, just let me know when it's a go and I'll set up the account.

I've been lazy responding to this (usual for me) but I seem to have just gotten a 3rd 16 ga, my second Bayard 16 hammer gun, my 3rd Bayard hammer gun (I know, Hi I'm Lawrence and I am a Bayard A Holic) anyhow I'm in for a few thousand, I dont care what color. A Gunshop.com imprint would be cool though.
Take Care
Lawrence

I don't want to throw a monkey wrench into the mix. but I think we need to slow down a little and consider other coast into the equation like the freight to get them shipped over here from the other side of the pond, the shipping to who or were they are going to be distributed, the coast off packing them up and the shipping charges to those who buy them. I don't know I maybe I have missed something, but has all this been figured out and this is not counting the time for someone to count out 50,000 shells to 50 different people and then make arrangements to get them pickup. Like I said I don't want to throw a wet towel on this but maybe it is just as cheap to have Mike handle it if he will. I understand he has to agree. If this has been figured into the 10 cents coast then disregard this I just missed something. But I am still interested either way.
Pete

Pete-

Ten cents a hull in a quantity of 50,000 purchased as one bulk lot from Mike Graf, shipping from europe, Mike's cut, and all the handling of the manufacturer and customs is included in that dime per hull price.

From there it's up to us to deal with the rest.
Including shipping the bulk lot of 50,000 hulls from grafandsons to wherever and whomever we find appropriate to handle the distribution.

Would it be easier for Mike to simply have them in stock?
You bet it would.
I would have run some through my rifles by now if he did, this thread wouldn't have taken this kind of shape if there were some paper 16b shotgun hulls of current manufacture available somewhere.

And I'm still looking for some, if anyone knows where to find some...


--Tinker

So-

At this point, there are a heck of a lot of guys who said they'd be into getting into this deal.
Pete's right about distribution, that's something we're going to have to handle. Graf's and Cheddite aren't going to part them out and ship them to us individually.

And I'm cool with that.

This is going to take a while to make happen still, and I'm also fine with that.

If there is someone here who can point me to another source of current manufacture 16b paper shotshell hulls, stand up and speak clearly.
I'd like a couple of boxes to run some test loads through my rifles with.

In the meantime, if we can get our funds together, I'll take this through to Mike Graf and have him place the order with Cheddite. Once we have the money concerted, we can start to talk about what the options really are and settle on some shade of black or white or neon brown with salmon-pink candy stripes --if cheddite gives enough of a hoot to talk color, that is-- and make it happen.
By next summer we'll be able to run paper in our sixteen bore guns.

I've dealt with Mike Harrel before, and I trust him with my couple hundred bucks for a couple thousand hulls.
There are likely a couple things in his gunroom that I'd like to also trust some more of my money in his hands for too.
Mike Harrell is a straight shot and there are other guys on this site who'd speak up for his integrity too.

Thanks to him for speaking up to handle the funds.


--Tinker

Thanks Tinker for the PM and clearing this up it is alot of work to get somethig like this toghter so I want to thanK you for your effords
Pete

Tink,
Possibly Cheddite will agree to bulk pack them in 1000 hull packs/bags? They've got counting scales at places that make small, large quantity products. It's quite likely that's the size they'd like to pack them in anyway.

So we have something like $100 per thou + pay pal + shipping to our address. Say $125 (plus or minus whatever) per thou total, any extra left over goes to a charity?
Works for me

ttt

Been off the net for a couple of weeks and look what happens!!! I'm in for at least 1000 paper hulls. they'll go right beside all those Activ hulls I hoarded up a couple of years ago.

Rick

I will take a 1000, 2 3/4" paper hulls. I do not use Pay-Pal. So, USPS MO or personal check from me.

Aguila had an Orange, ribbed, 2 9/16" paper hull, but any color will work.

Can there be a drop shipment on the bulk order from Graf to whoever does the actual dividing and shipping? So that would be from the customs clearing house to whoever is shipping to us. Might save some freight cost for all involved. Graf would still get their cut, but would not have to actually handle or ship anything.

Keith B

Keith-

Good question on the drop shippment.
I'll have to get with Mike some time and ask him. We'll just see about that.

I'm trying to keep the contact with him minimal on this deal as he has a lot to deal with in his day-to-day work schedule and this just isn't a big money maker for him.

Once Mike Harrell gets a paypal account set up for this and the spoken committments turn into money on the barrel (checks or money orders sent to Mike Harrell can get deposited into the paypal account, note that the paypal account is a way for everyone to see where their money is gong and what it's doing...) I'll arrange with Mike Graf whatever deposit requirements he has for this deal and get the ball rolling with an actual order with specifics and a shipping date.

I'm pretty excited about this.
Quite frankly, I didn't expect to have had this kind of reception to my inquiry. I'm glad I'm not alone in the cause.


--Tinker

I think it just shows the burgeoning interest in the 16ga. in the last few years, and rightly so. There are more and more new 16's being built, and maybe something like this can have a ripple effect among ammo mfgrs. You never know.

Tinker, do I need to start the Paypal account? I think the only way to put checks/money orders into PayPal is for me to deposit them to an account and then electronicly move the money. I think that handling checks/MOs could get to be a hassle. I'll still do it if that's what it takes, it would be much simpler if everyone just paid with a credit card or with their Paypal account. Mike

I sure hope this order is going to happen!

Without having read the nine gazillion prior pages I note that Midway's flyer to me now lists 16 ga. hulls and components for the first time. I have two such critters, a Belgian double and an old Browning receiver design pump. I did manage to buy some 16 ga. at Gander Mountain in Joliet, Ill. which is the first time I noted they had it.

It is all about numbers. The problem is that the 16 is starting at such a low number. Say you were a shell maker and were told one product would increase 500% in volume and another go up 10%. On the surface the 500% increase would be great news to your future and the 10% seem a minor after thought. But when in means increasing 16 gauge sales from 1,000 flats a year to 5,000 flats for 500% increase against the 10% which means 1,000,000 12 gauger flats increasing to 1,100,000 flats your view changes. 16 sales are a minor drop in the bucket to all the large shell makers. The small makers can kind of carve out a niche market and do decently making both volume and profits to improve their bottom line.

The 16 is a low volume specialty shell. I am just glad that there are so many makers willing to supply different loads. If you are willing to mix and match you can cover almost any shooting interest, with decent loads. Reload and it gets easier.

Not to beat a dead horse, but it all starts with the gun companies being willing to make 16ga. guns, and marketing their benefits effectively to consumers, i.e., 12 ga. performance in 20ga. disguise. The 16 may be a small niche, but they seem to have no problem making 28ga guns either, which is also a small niche. It's all about SELLING, and few gun companies SELL the benefits of the 16 effectively. It could be a much larger niche if they wanted it to be. When the guns are made, and people get on the bandwagon, the ammo will follow.

Hi to all-

I've been absolutely buried in work and the home life of daddy-to-a 1 year old daughter.
All's great with all of that, and I'm excited to see this level of enthusiasm for the paper hulls.

I've tried calling around for other sources, and really this looks like our only shot for paper 16b hulls.

Mike H-
Go ahead with the paypal account if you can please.
Can you get this set up so everyone can see some kind of accounting for thier couple hundred bucks?
I'll be ready to toss my dollars in the hat once there's a hat to throw at.


Thanks to everyone here so far.


...back to work for me


--Tinker

Tinker I'll start to set it up. I don't know how long it will take but to comfirm the account usually takes until you get the next credit card bill. They charge your account .02 cents and give you a code to type in. I'll also see what's available to oversee the accounting end.

The account is set up. I need two or three people willing to be overseers for this account. This is what I need from them. #1 a valid email account address.
#2 a password to enter into the account so that they can access the account to view transactions only.
If everyone would feel better about having two people having access to the money please let me know. I can set this up also.
Please do not volunteer your services and then send the needed info over the net. Volunteer first and then I will send you my phone number and we can do it that way. If anyone has any other concerns let me know.
The account should be ready to accept money by Friday.

I am interested in 1000 paper cases also. I will pay with paypal when instucted as to where and how much.
Jeff

I still need some guidance on how everyone would like the PayPal account set up. I also need 2 volunteers.

Any up date on the progress of this project?

Keith B

What the hey, I'll take 1000

Hello all-

I've been working a lot lately with the new job and haven't really had much time to spend socializing or playing with my old doubles.

I have though had a bit of a conversation with Mike Harrell on the topic of working out a paypal account for this bulk order.

Paypal takes a percentage of each transaction with a commercial account.
Since this isn't a commercial venture, in that no one here is looking to make any money on this venture we've been discussing having a personal account set up for this -- an account that paypal won't charge him for.

The only difference that this makes to us here is that with a personal account, there isn't any kind of provision for oversight. What I mean there is that it'd be a one-man account and no one else would have privlege to peek into it and monitor the works.

Mike handles deals with integrity and I'm fine with having him set up a personal account for this purpose, as long as it's fine with him and fine with everyone else.

Still we're not in any kind of time crunch here, we have months before an order would have to make it into the factory's hands. They won't start production on our request until February.

We have lots of time still to come to a color and length.

At this point I really don't care about the color at all, make them in glitter pink for all I care.
I'll be able to handle my end of making sure that my 16b cartridges stay out of any chamber other than a 16b chamber.

I'm not to keen on the 'Sweet 16' print, my sense is that the 'Sweet 16' name has been run well into the ground by numerous other production efforts and I'd prefer something simple like 16b or 16ga in an interesting print type -- but really, I'll just shoot them regardless of what's printed on them.

I think we came to a good max length number too, as paper hulls are very simple to trim to any length and for my own efforts, I'll have to be trimming them to at least three different lengths anyway.

Also, for what it's worth, it looks like we easily have enough interest to go ahead with a 50k order. If we end up with deposits for more than 50k hulls, we'll just ask for more than 50k.
I'm sure the factory will supply us with as many as we want once we hit the 50k minimum.


--Tinker

Tinker, you indicate "we came to a good maximum length number too...." I scanned back over some of the recent posts, but don't see what that number was.

2 3/4" was the length settled on since no one wanted 3" and cutting was easy enough.

2 3/4" sounds good . This will be fun. I've always wanted to delve into some roll crimping and make up hunting loads that have the nice little overshot cards with the shot size printed on top.

Chuck
I don't think they ever made a 3" chamber for 16ga. correct me if I am wrong.
Pete

peters, here's your correction. They did indeed once make a 3 inch 16ga. I have one.

peters: you might check these threads http://foxcollectors.s10.forumsplace.com/viewtopic.php?t=118
http://www.16ga.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=690

Pete,
Now I'se nava sade dey made a 3" 16ga, I'se jus sayin no one heya wanted 3" hulls.

(but I thought I recalled a thread where someone did say the M21 Win did come in a 3" 16g)

Tinker, let me know when we are going to start the ball rolling. I'm off on a 2 week moose/caribou/bear hunt starting the 31st of August so I won't be in touch until the 14th of Sep.

Thanks Mike-

I'm envious.
I really need to get a good hunt planned into the next year. Canada and Northern Territory, Australia are high on my list.

Canada is much closer.

Let us know how your trip goes.

Between now and when you return, we'll have ample time to bicker over what color and print to set these things up with.


Perhaps a poll...


--Tinker

Winchester made at least two(maybe a few more) Model 21s in 16ga. with 3" chambers to test the 3" shells Winchester that they were considering making.

If you want a particular 16 ga. length, Midway has a sale on brass hulls in 12,16, and 20 ga. $13 for whatever the package is - forgot quantity. If you have a lathe this is easy to turn to a specific length.

well you learn something new every day .Thanks you.
Pete

Anyone have any new news about these?

This is a new thread for me, but talk of getting in on a bulk order of 16 gauge paper hulls sounds good to me.

I don't know how many I would want, but for sure, I would like to get in on any order.

Whatever length doesn't really matter. I can trim them on the bandsaw just like I do the plastic hulls I use now.

Put my email on your list:
brentd@iastate.edu

Brent

Brent-

At this point there is no email list, only the conversation on in this thread.

As the group hasn't come to grips with what single color everyone can live with yet, and some of the guys have said noted colors that absolutely aren't acceptable to them, there's still a bit of work to do in the conversation.

I started this whole mess. May I ask you to read through the whole thread and once you have, make any suggestion you can as to what color -- also, do what you can to massage everyone here to the possibility that Cheddite might just end up choosing their own color for us and that might just be fine for everyone too...


--Tinker

Tinker,
I could careless what color the hulls are. I would opt to ask Cheddite if they will give a break on some color they have an over abundance of. But was it you that said pink with sparkles would work? It works for me.

Brent

Blue?

Deep Kelly Green.

Tinker,
I'll throw my hat in the ring here for at least a thousand hulls. I could care less what color they are but would opt for 2 3/4" length.

All I need is to be told when and where to send the funds.

Paul

I'll take a 1000. Where and when to send money?

Any source for un-marked empty boxes? Maybe have a box manufacturer make us a run of 2000 (to hold these 50,000 paper shells). Maybe a 2-pc. design with a grouse lithographed on the lid. Or an old guy in a canvas coat pulling 2 smoking hulls out of the breech. Hmmmm...

OK, Don. Green then. Just so they aren't red like 12 gauge hulls. Or pink. Or lilac. Or...

Hey! what about light GREY?

C Man

Not big on GREY but I could live with HUNTER ORANGE if I had too!

Tinker, we had no luck on the moose or caribou but I got an interior grizzly. We had another gizzly cross the river less than 30 yards from us. We only had the one tag. Let me know when we need to start on the money for the shells.

btt at Tinker's request.

Pete

All-

If you're coming into this conversation, read the whole thread first before asking questions. The banter has nearly all been on topic and the subject deserves a glance at what's gone on here.

And now for what's going on currently, it's time for action.

-we have a manufacturer
-we have an importer
-we have a financial controller
-the color will be *whatever the manufacturer ships*
--anyone too concerned with color to accept whatever's shipped should arrange their own deal somewhere. there's no way we're going to please everyone with any particular color choice here...
-we need to solidify payment and distribution


Anyone here with some good, clear management strategies on payment and distribution?
We need to get this rolling.


--Tinker

I'm ready Tinker.

Tinker

I am unaware of the price established - has it been done? Does it include shipping and handling costs?

Has minimum order qty been established?

Is there a list of those who have indicated that they would like to buy, and in what quantity? Is there an e-mail list for notifications to these people?

Is there some preliminary loading data available?

I suggest that everyone who has indicated interest be contacted and asked to confirm order quantity, send a check (by a specific date) to the banker to hold in escrow. If minimum order quantity has been reached the order should be placed with the manufacturer and a ship date obtained.

Someone will have to recieve the hulls, check the shipment against the order, match buyers to hulls, package, and ship. Has this person been identified?

Mike

All I know has been written to the thread

furthermore
-no email list specific to this cause
-other than the thread, no list of interested parties
-the 'price' discussed was for the hulls, crated and shipped to the importer, there will be other shipping costs to consider from there to the individuals
-everyone has an opinion on color, and they're all different
-no load data

AND
I'not really interested in dealing with any of those details.
This all started with me asking around for a source for current mfg 16b paper hulls, my having found thst there was no such thing, and me then going out in search of possiblity of such.
At this time I've learned of great interest, and have spent a great deal of energy on the pursuit.
I have nothing to gain besides a few boxes of hulls, and I'm ready to pass the torch so to speak.
These final organizational tasks are much better off in someone else's hands, trust me.



--Tinker

This is beginning to sound like it won't happen. Too bad.

Maybe we could have the doublegunshop sell the shells. Dave used to sell RSTs

As best I can make out, here are those who have opted in.
1--775
2--App Grouser
3--Birdawg
4--BlacknTan
5--BlacknTan
6--BrentD
7--BulletMaster
8--Chuck H
9--Chukarman
10--Claybird
11--Dave Erickson
12--DKL
13--dogon
14--Druminman
15--FRLauer
16--FRLauer
17--fullandfuller
18--Gerald A. Mele
19--gnoahhh
20--HIGH$TRAP
21--Hudson Valley Frank
22--Jeff Kuss
23--jrusch
24--Keith B
25--Kevin Springman
26--Lawrence Kotchek
27--LDR
28--M. M. Hopkins Jr.
29--marklart
30--Mike Harrell
31--Mike T
32--Oldmodel70
33--PeteM
34--peters
35--PM
36--Regal Begal
37--RWG
38--Sebascodegan
39--shootingsioux
40--sxsman1
41--tgun25
42--Thurston Howell III
43--Tinker
44--TN Skeet
45--tony kosinski
46--TwiceBarrel
47--Yeti

Warning, some of the names on this list only had 1 or 2 posts back in July and have not been heard from since.

The shells:
Length = 70mm
Unprimed
Imprinted with "Doublegunshop.com"
Cost approximately $125 per 1M, figure a bit more.

As I see it. The biggest bump in the whole process is the distribution.
Question - Can the shells be shipped bagged 500 or 1000 units?
This would save a huge headache, counting 50,000 shells! I doubt anyone is going to step up for that one.

Second bump. If 50,000 are not paid for up front, some one has to make up the shortage. Or the whole group has to cover it.

Pete

Thanks for the work Pete. If needed I'd buy 2000. I'd offer to distribute them but I don't think shipping them all to Alaska and then back down to the lower 48 would be cheap.

I'm one of those that posted once or twice way back in the beginning. I'm still in for 1000. If 2000 made this whole thing actually happen, I'll take 2k.

I just bent the stock of my 16 bore Evans so it is now shootable and I'm about to move it into the "favored gun" position in the safe.

Brent

I'll also go for 2000 if that helps make the 50K. Is there an interested DGBBS member who lives near Grafs in MO? Would seem to be the logical place from which to distribute.

Pete

Add me to the list... I'd purchase 1,000.

I was one of the early responders. Still interested.

Thanks so much guys for stepping in.
I've been swamped with sick pregnant wife in and out of hospital, needy (although amazingly cute) 17mo old daughter, and rapid expansion of the labratory at work.

I'm glad to see this thing happen, I just don't have the bandwidth right now...

Someone should notify the 16ga forum gang and have them chime in.

Mike, is the paypal (or whatever it is) account ready for funds?



--Tinker

I think an industrial counting scale would be an easy way to count out a thousand at a time. Keep in mind, there'll likely be some overcount and loss due to damage. I'd figure on a couple hundred for that.

Tinker I can set it up anytime. Remember the 3-5% charge for using paypal. Mike

Ok, I found a dup in the list. But with the Grouse Guy added and Thurston Howell III requesting 2K we are at 48K.

I tried to grab email addresses for everyone on the list, but stopped. I ran into too many who do not have an email address in their profile.

Chuck the idea of a counting scale is excellent. If the maker can not bag them at the factory in some reasonable increment. It does raise the question, who has a counting scale? Can they be rented?

Tinker, congrats on the 17mo daughter. Hope the wife is getting better. Would you prefer some one else contact the maker or are you still able to handle it? It would be helpful if they could answer some of these questions. Also, if they have any clue as to the weight of 1,000 shells. It would help to anticipate the postage.

Mike someone has to figure out a final total.

Cost from maker
Paypal %
Cost of boxes for distribution & shipping
Final shipping cost to individuals
Donation to Dave per order?

I am sure I missed something.

Pete

If someone is close to their powder scale to get us a weight on one 16g or 12g paper hull should help with a calculation of shipping weight.

Add me to the list... I'd purchase 1,000

Just checked 5 federal hulls,average 135 gr per hull x 1000 is 135000 gr, div. by 7000 is 19.28 lbs per 1000.
Bought several 1000 12ga Rem STS hulls this summer,payed
anywhere from $16.00 to $25.00 shipping depending on source location.

HTH BOB

I live 30 miles from Grafs and have access to a counting scale. I would be willing to collect/distribute, but would sure like it if someone else living close would help. We could meet once and split the crate in half each shipping our half. That way we'd only have to ship 25 boxes each.

I also have a catalog somewhere at work where I could buy shipping boxes in bulk for a buck or two if memory serves me well.

Patrick

Patrick,

That is a great offer! I am about 400 miles away, unfortunately. Do we have any one closer that is willing to help Patrick?

Mike should be able to get the addresses when people pay. If it will help, I can run the mailing labels and get them to you.

Pete

Just heard about this thread on the 16ga. society web site. I'd be interested in 1,000.

Matt

I'd like to order 2000 of them. asphaltdave@comcast.net

Would someone please post when this is priced out and ready to order..

Where to send checks and who to make them out to.

Any other info, including shipping addresses for reciepient and an e-mail address for notifications.

I am not adverse to helping out, but am on the Left Coast - a bit for from the actions.

Mike

I was one of the early responders who hasn't posted since. I'm still in for 1,000. Please tell when and where to send the check (and amount). Thank you all for the work done on this. We all talk. It is gratifying to see some who put their talk into action.

Again, thanks.

Lorin

this is starting to look like 50k won't fill the orders. Was 50k only the minimum, not the increment? If so, we should be able to order 55k or 60k or whatever, correct?

I suggest a deadline for payment. If the 50k minimum order payment is not reached by the deadline, a new public statement and new deadline should be established. If, on the otherhand, the minimum or greater order payment is reached by the deadline, it should be closed and the order placed promptly. IMO, the list of us that stated we wanted hulls was a 'survey' to see if the next steps were worthwhile: Collecting the money, logistics for distribution, etc.

I also think that those honorable members volunteering to do this work should not go unrewarded. They'll surely incur costs in time, and almost certainly in fuel for travel and other things not obvious to the rest of us. I'll leave this to discussion here.

I'm in for at least 1000 hulls.

Rick Grimes

Just heard about this at the 16ga reloading group - I'll speak for 1,000 hulls myself.

Thanks for the work on this, guys.

Chris Tewes

Please sign me up for 1000 hulls.

Lin Riniker

I am interested in 2K!

Put me down for 1000 paper hulls, if you haven't done so already. Russ

This thread reminds me of the old James Garner movie about the Texas oil-men "The Wheeler Dealers"...Geo

Put me down for 1000 paper hulls, if you haven't done so already. Tony Lowe

Good to see this topic back.
Appears we are on 1000 hull quantities, so please ignore my prior post for 1500 and put me in for 1000.

Count me in for 1,000.

I am still in its been awhile but I am still here

Count me in for a 1,000 as well.

flytier

All right guys, time to fish or cut bait. Is this going to happen or not?

At this point we are at 60K hulls and counting. Mike Harrell is ready to handle the money. Druminman has stepped up and is going to handle the distribution. We could definitely use a few more hands with this part. If no one else steps up, I am willing to drive down and give him a hand.

Waiting to hear from Tinker. He has the contact info. Once the manufacturer is contacted, we will be ready to fly.

Pete

Thanks Pete.

I also would like to invest in a thousand of these hulls so please put me on the list(or what ever your using) and let me know when and where to send payment thanks Don

Couple things.

First is the issue of paypal.
They're an anti-gun and will take some of our money.
Dave said he'd he'd like to help some way.
Perhaps he can hold the funds for us all.
Can someone contact him or get him back to the thread?

Also.

I've PM'd Chuck, I'll PM Pete too with the contact info for Mike Graf.

Check your mail.

--Tinker

I would also like 1000 hulls.

---Fox'y---

BlacknTan and I have decided to share a single order so please remove my name from the list. BlacknTan will confirm our joint order separately. Thanks to all who have worked to put this together!

As per Regal Beagel, I'd like to confirm my order of 1,000 hulls.

Thanks to all for the work involved!

Hello,
I thought that I would give you all a heads up that we are going to be carrying this hull in stock in limited quantities. You may place backorders for the hulls on our website now but be aware that they are not going to be in the country to ship from our warehouse untill summer 2007.

Here is the link to our web site where this item may be placed on a backorder status for summer 2007 delivery.

http://www.grafs.com/grafs/search/product/66855

Thanks,
Mike Graf
Graf & Sons Inc.

I'm still interested in a 1000 hulls.
Jeff Kuss

Well, this seems a little uncomfortable. We are now in competition with Mike and Mike is our wholesaler.

On top of that, the only reason this got started was that the hulls weren't available.

As I see it, it gets down to: we are taking the personal time of a few members to save a buck. How much we'll save remains to be seen since we don't have a firm deal on the bulk hulls. On the other hand, 16-18 cents apiece is pretty steamy IMO, just to have some 'cool papers'. So my order with Mike would be a fraction of what I've committed to on this venture. I suspect most would do the same.

Chuck H,

I have to agree with you. The distribution / shipping promises to be a time consuming task. While willing to do it when no other source of hulls was available, I hesitate when there is a commercial source available.

Pete

My intent was to find some new production paper 16b hulls.
I greatly appreciate the sense of shared interest on this issue among you fellow forum members.
I also greatly appreciate Mike Graf's co-operation in this effort.

For one thing, I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from pursuing Mike's offer of a bulk purchase.
It was generous of him to offer that kind of opportunity and for those who'd do well to have a thousand hulls in their personal stock, I say go for it while you can, and I don't think Mike'd see this as competition.

Also, as we've seen there's greater interest in the product than I'd have (Mike too, I reckon) thought at first. Enough for Mike to realize the good business sense of having them in stock for resale.

Still, on the issue of a bulk order, I'd be much more comfortable paying Dave to handle the funds than Paypal.


--Tinker

I also want to put in for a 1000 order...

......stackbeads

Did anyone ever contact an agent for European cartridges?
Months ago I mentioned that The Hull Cartridge Company did 16g paper hulls.Also Eley,Gamebore, & Cheddite could supply.Continental Europe are BIG users of 16g and I would have thought you could have sourced them there.
Seems to me like you expect Tinker to do everything for you????

I am in for at least 1000 as long as they accept 209's and fit in my 2.75" chambers. I don't think the birds care about colors, but something that glows in the dark at the bottom of a duck blind or under the truck seat would be nifty.

"Darn fumble fingers...I came here with 2 boxes of shells and now I can only find 1/2 of them."

Chris Boix

I tried to fish out the regs on importing these hulls directly to an unlicensed individual. I didn't find a clear statement on components of ammunition. But if they treat it like ammunition, I believe that an individual may not import for resale. That would mean we'd need to go thru an "Import FFL".

Chuck I have an import FFL.

I spoke with Mike Graf.

Here is the story:

• 1.) We need to have a 50% deposit to him by EOB on Thursday, December 14th. After that he can no longer order 16ga paper hulls & expect delivery in 2007. The manufacturer shuts down for the holidays. They only do a yearly run of 16ga paper hulls. By the way, the only color available is black. They buy the tubing from another manufacturer. If we are ordering 60K hulls that requires $3,597 to place the order.
  
  
• 2.) Pricing 1M unprinted $119.90, printed $125.00
  
  
• 3.) They come packed 2,500 per carton. Mike estimates a full bodied pickup will be required to move them from his dock.
  
  
• 4.) He is purchasing 50K hulls that he will sell through his own website. This is a separate order from whatever was discussed with any members of this forum.

So, at the very least, we now have a commercial source for 16ga paper hulls.

Pete

Pete,
sounds like a business deal born of coincidences and bad timing.
if someone can make this happen in 3 days, i am still in for 1000.

Although it doesn't look likely that we'll get this done, here's the weblink to Cheddite http://www.cheddite.com/

They have an email contact and may be of some assistance if dealing direct with them.

Did anyone else get this link in an email from Grafs.

http://www.grafs.com/grafs/search/?q=ch16pga

seems grafs is pre-selling them, ie email said "order now before they are sold out"
i guess a 60% mark-up isnt horrible ?
i am sure it is coincidence and i have no problem supporting grafs, but the whole thing just doesnt feel right, especially when combined with the new and virtually impossible 3 day order window.

if after all this, anyone here is still looking to place a bulk order with either cheddite or another manufacturer, count me in.

I have just left messages with both Kent/Gamebore and Hull Cartridge in England. I will pass on the info when/if I get it.

Count me in for 2000.

Below is the reply from Hull Cartridge.

"Mike - thanks for the enquiry. We are cartridge loaders and buy in our hulls. We have two suppliers, Cheddite in France and Fiocchi in Italy.
Because of the shipping regulations with regard to hazardous cargo we can only export category 1.4S in steel containers - the shippers will not accept pallet loads - which 50,000 hulls would be a single pallet."

I suggest you contact Fiocchi USA, or Cheddite in France for a quote.

Regards

Mike Haw

Sales and Operations Manager

I called Fiocchi USA and ended up speaking to Carlo Fiocchi. They do not manufacture 16ga paper hulls. I told him that Cheddite is willing to do a production run for us. His response, "Good for them." He did apologize but expressed no interest.

Pete

Pe, Mike, etc. I checked months ago, talked to Mike Graf directly, and also Cheddite, and Cheddite is not going to sell any hulls to any individuals. Graf is their rep or agent in the US, and all hulls sold in the US go through him. That's what the original deal was, the pooling of 16 ga. paper orders to get Graf to cut a special order from Cheddite, since he didn't stock paper 16's. The fact is, this big order didn't materialize because no one wanted to take the risk of the commitment necessary for 50 or 60 thousand hulls, and then distribute them. This is a task not to be underestimated. The deal didn't get organized and money wasn't collected. No one stepped up to the plate, and I don't blame them. I wouldn't have either. But it was a great idea, and we do have to thank its originators for whipping up demand for some neat hulls, though they will probably go unrewarded.

Frankly, Graf didn't even want to do it when I talked to him. He was unsure of such a small special market. Evidently he became more confident later, and just went ahead and did the deal. I hope it works out for him. The price is OK, remember he has taken a risk we wouldn't, he's in business and deserves to make a buck. I'm glad he did it. I think he'll do OK, and we want him to, so he orders more special stuff. Our job as "the market" is to buy more if we hope to drive the price down, but I doubt we will have much effect as individuals. My guess is that if somebody still wants to buy 50 or 60 thousand in one crack, Graf would do it, and the price would be back at the lowest figure.

So, we're now at the point where we need to order from Mike or the deal is off, is that correct? The price point may not be as good, but there will be far less hassle for all concerned, and Mike does allow ordering in smaller quantities as well. I'm personally still not crazy about black as my only color choice (would have preferred purple, blue, or green), but hey, any port in a storm...

It appears you are correct. Chedditte appears to be the only ones willing to deal in these small (50k) quantities. The main hassle is the distribution of a bulk order. With a commercial source available that goes away.

As for the color. Chedditte does not make the paper the tube for the hull. They outsource it. My understanding is that it would take a special order of 2 million hulls to change the color. On the upside of this. A great thing was done. The participants of this bbs created enough attention to this niche that a commercial distributor took it on as part of his product line. I am hoping that he completely sells out.

A special thank you goes to Tinker who asked the question and then pursued the options!

Pete

Is this dead?

Mike,
It appears that Graf did order the hulls and have them in stock.

http://www.grafs.com/shotshell/product/105857

Thanks Chuck. I'll order some from Graf's.

You know $4.49 a box for hulls is rather steep. I love paper hulls but at .18 per hull I hope these last a long time. I bought almost five boxes of AA compression hulls last month and paid .14 each, which I thought was a lot. Shame they are getting harder to find all the time. Still paper is special in old doubles.

KY Jon,

I understand. I spoke to Mike at length about all this. Mike did not place an order big enough to get much of a price break. He is feeling the waters at this stage. He thinks there is a market, but does not want inventory sitting around forever.

I am glad to see that he is offering the smaller lots of 100.

Pete