What do you think of this for a project?
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Lefever-GH-12ga.cfm?gun_id=10013384029 1/2" barrels? $300?
Thanks!
If you don't mind the snip on the front end, at least they're not asking some no man's land price like 695$. It hasn't got 7% bright case color so I assume Crosnoe has an inflationary scheme for evaluating greyed out patina. Is a GH a composite--barrels from one gun of a certain grade; action from another? Don't know much about condition from description--you'll have to poke and prod by email or phone unless you can get there to put hands on. Best I can tell it might be on face, might have decent barrels aside from hacksaw choking, wood might be pretty good; looks like it's got adequate drop for tall faces. How can you go wrong if the 3 bills is too hot to carry any longer?
jack
Looks and is described just like my G-Grade; I'd have thought it was worth more than $300. Hmmm, maybe I need to go check my safe to be sure mine's still there...Geo
Watched a very nice F or G grade sell at auction last week for $225. It was a pivot lever but post cocking lever gun, 13,000 series. I guess I could have bought it, but I was on a quest. Those who pay $695 for such guns should get out more. We hope that "project gun" doesn't mean that you have to do work on it to make it fire. We are here to help. By the way, I would have thought that Jack would have been at the auction.
Near as I can tell, Bill and I agree and my only real fault is that I lead a sheltered life. I have never paid 695 for a Lefever. Paid 9C a couple times. I can't do this full time which perhaps makes me susceptible to prices that are sometimes greater than the buyer's optimum, which would be nothing at all and you just give Bill the gun with a nice Thankyou note for taking it off your hands. The last pivot lever I saw was a remuddled abomination rewooded with a ridiculous piece of wood and about 5" of drop; the asking was several multiples of 300$.
jack
This G appears to be a two-hook gun. I have one very similar & can assure you as long as I'm its caretaker it could not be bought for $300. It does have the plate mounted sears & still has the cross pin through frame bar. I don't really think the G grade was added until after the two-hook guns had replaced the rod cockers.
For the money I say go for it. You can always return it if it crumbles in your hands. Looks decent to me. I have a serious weak spot for Lefevers--about concluded the final version remains the best designed and executed SXS ever factory made in America. Hope this heresy doesn't get me thrown out of the PGCA.....
apologies I did not ever intend to hijack a thread. my bad.
Buy the patent, not the gun, Pipes? To follow your thinking, it's an important variation of an evolving mechanical design, and a desirable one, and one of personal importance to you. The OP wants it as a project gun. You encourage the thought that it's a good choice as he won't be getting another for that price where your views are known and accepted. Apparently Crosnoe doesn't share your views, or really anybody at all's views, as he's sacrificing "70% case color" and 70% of some other mysterious stuff for 3 bills and hasn't noticed the innards. Funny old world and people have more fun than anybody. But anybody knows that what makes a good "project" is something so cheap that there's no great loss of outlay if correction and restoration goes south or proves too tough. I think the OP has got the best of it in a gun which is as lowdown cheap as Murphy believes it should be and yet very valuable to you.
jack
You would be hard pressed to find another $300.00 Lefever gun that was not in a basket. If you are looking for a high condition gun that will be a family valuable this gun is not it. If you are looking for a decent shooter with what looks like fairly decent stock drop then this gun is a very good buy.
Does 29.5 instead of 30 or 32" even make that much difference? This gun will be more useful as mod and mod choked gun than as extra full and full that several other Lefevers I own. I can not see reaming out those old guns to make them more user friendly but this gun you could make I/C and Mod without any decrease in value. That gun with open chokes could be a very fun gun to own and shoot.
Did anyone else notice he also has listed as an I grade a gun that is Described as "Lefever I grade 12ga, 30" full & ext full, Damascus barrels, Double triggers, Exts, 60% cc but dulling, 70% print on barrels, Excellent bores, 14 1/2 LOP butt plate, No cracks"? I have seen two other I grades with the same features. Were they bin clean out guns at the end of production or early guns that were made from better grade parts? Lefever is the one maker that never seems to follow any real rules.
Jack;
I was not saying the two-hook configuration made it a lot more valuable in its present condition. I was merely pointing out what it was. There were a lot less of them made than the later large hook guns, but don't know they bring a lot higher prices because of it. I suspect the GH was a little Parker terminology slipped in though Lefever to my knowledge never added the H to their hammerless line. To the best of my knowledge they never actually built hammer & hammerless models simultaneously as did many of the other other makers, including Parker.
RyanF did ask about it as a project gun, as best as I could tell from the pics it looks sound. Maybe there is one out there somewhere cheaper. This one is available right now at that price. How much time, gasoline, etc will he have to spend finding that absolute bottom dollar one. This one doesn't appear to me to be priced unreasonable, they are beginning to be more sought out. I don't personally see how he could go far wrong.
I once bought a parts, not a project, H grade for $25.00, but that was a long time back. Today I see parts listed that bring more than I paid for the whole thing then.
Jon;
Did those I grades have damascus or twist bbls?. I have not personally seen one, but have heard of a few with the twist bbls ALA the H grade, but never one with damascus. At least part of these also had cocking indicators & a Doll's Head.
I don't really know if they were early preproduction models or late ones assembled at Ithaca, using up parts. I seem to recall though that a least one or two of them had high SN's which would tend to indicate the later.
I do have a very high numbered gun which is marked H, has indicators, Doll's Head & twist bbls, but seems to have DS wood. It lacks a metal tip or escutcheon in the forend & has the uncapped half grip like a DS on the stock.
PS; This one does have the late type H scroll on the sideplates & carries the 1907 patent date. As the DS/I was indroduced about 1901 anyone carrying an '07 patent would not be a real early one. If you see another one see if it has that date in the patent list.
I know of one I grade for certain that had damascus barrels and think there was a second. Too many miles and too many gun shows. I have also encountered one or maybe two that had twist barrels but have seen several on the internet. I figured that they were early production guns as a rule but who knows.
One other DS grade gun that I came across must have been an employee special. Stamped DS on the water table. It had Krupp steel barrels, cocking indicators, dolls head and the wood would have been home on a optimums grade gun. It was not for sale and the owner died a few years later. I offered him two plus grand for the gun 20+ years ago. Would have gone higher but did not want to make him mad, hoping he might sell it to me later. It was that nice looking of a gun. I have often thought about that gun and where it ended up. It most likely became one of the many "up graded" guns that are floating around as a higher grade gun.
If I had bought every "odd' or "unique" Lefever that I have come across I bet I would have a hundred different guns. Some features would be minor differences and others extreme. That is what sets Lefevers apart from the rest. He started so early and changed as production went, so his guns were a gradual progression with no clear sharp demarcation of features or mechanism. On top of that are the many guns built out of order or with features that had been discontinued. It is like his entire production was one long experiment of trying things and adjusting how thing worked. Funny thing is that just about all that he tried worked and has last more than a hundred years. That keeps me looking at any Lefever I come across at a gun show because you never know what you will find and learn. Maybe I find that employee special or some other one.
Well said Jon. Just wanted to ascertain you were using the term damascus in the true sense & not generically to include twist. Coming from you I suspected that was the case, but wanted to confirm.
This is purely a wild guess, but I suspect those having true damascus were parts utilization. It is f course also quite possible as they were preparing to introduse the grade wome were made up with bbls at hand & may have been either twist or damascus. Perhaps they used up some with some type of "Appearence Blemish" but were otherwise sound bbls.
Buy the Lefever Pete just listed for $400 on guns for sale section.Sounds like a bargain! Bobby
I too noticed this gun when it was posted at $400. At $300, you can't go wrong.
Regarding the I grade referenced above, it did look like an H or higher due to the cocking indicators. If it has damascus barrels (not twist) and cocking indicators, how would it be any different than a G grade aside from the line border engraving?
I have talked with the Crosnoes from time to time at the Louisville gun show and they have always seemed pretty honest dealers to do business with.
Mark
If it is a I grade it should not have the dolls head rib extension. It would be straight instead. But other than that it would be as you describe.
2-piper
I never thought about DS / I grades being a gun to use up possible cosmetic problem barrels, but you may be right. Lefever used up old parts all the time. I suspect because they always were hard up for materials, parts and money. This may be why we find guns built out of order or with mixed features. I did had a gunsmith tell me he was reblueing a Lefever once and found it had one steel barrel and one damascus barrel. I guess when finished they would be hard to tell from two steel barrels. These days I have to buy the gun just for fun.
From what I have seen and heard it looks like less than 1% of the DS/I grades had twist or damascus barrels. So is it a clean out the bin gun, a early gun made when steel barrels had not been ordered and/or come in, or just a gun cobbled up from parts on hand to get out the door and bring in a little money. Who knows. They are still a lot of fun because Lefevers are like a box of chocolates. You never know what they are getting until you look them over. How dull would they be if they were like Sterlingworths where they were all the same with only minor differences in a few of them.
I have picked up several DS guns for future project guns. They do not command great prices and all I have are steel barrels with more modern stock drop. Some even have more engraving than the early G grades. Funny thing about Lefevers is that as time went by they increased in engraving instead of decreasing like other makers to cut cost.
Jon;
If you compare Lefever catalogs with those of other Co's you will see that list prices on Lefevers stayed constant, during periods when other Co's were dropping them for a given grade. In pre-LAC catalogs an E grade hammer was listed @ $100.00. In the last LAC catalog published an E extractor hammerless was listed @ $100.00. Seems as competion arose, they up-graded the grades rather than lowering price & would than as need dictated add a lower grade with a lower price to take the place of the older one.
The I grade was a G grade damascus barrel 30 F&F. Bores are in excellent condition, wood is sound with normal scratches and dings. 38xxx serial number.
The G was as advertised but in better condition than I expected. Two hook, 16xxx serial number, push button forend release. The wood is about the same on both guns, has some oil in the wood on this one.
Retiring in a couple yrs, have a few projects in front of me.
Benny
So why was it listed as a I grade? Do you think it was I for "Ideal grade" which it was often referred to when first introduced or just a mistake in listing? Still a good buy as is for a G grade or a I grade. Hard to go wrong for 300.00.
Not too sure why the listing as an "I" as we could see it was probably not an "I" with the damascus barrels.
I wanted the two hook even with the 1/2" missing and I gave an offer for both and we agreed.
Benny