After being annealed, engraved and case color hardened, the action on an 0 frame Parker is warped. Is there a fix?

Wyobirds:
Yes. Send it to Del Grego for corrective work. Which is where you should have sent it to begin with.

If the frame is significantly warped, only an expert should attempt correction.

Best, Kensal

Who did the work? Scary!

T

Agree with KR. It can be bent back to original dimensions when returned to soft by annealing. This is a simple enough process, but not necessarily an easy thing to get right. Expert time.

How warped? Some movement is to be expected and can often be rectified through hard fitting, other times it can not.

I for one am relieved that the problem is fixable.
The whole story:
A friend of mine decided to upgrade his field gun and he bought a very used 16 Ga. Parker VH grade (?) on an "O" frame. Before buying he had a gunsmith checkout the gun and discovered that the gun was basically sound, but had been previously restored and needed it again. The smith told him that to restore the gun back to original would cost more than the gun is currently worth. Because the gun felt perfect when my friend mounted and shot it, he bought the gun and sent it to a shop that specialized in annealing and case color hardening. After annealing the gun was sent to an engraver to touch up the minimal engraving which include the name parker that had almost been polished out. The gunsmith that previously advised him, attempted to assemble the action and said that because the action was warped during case color hardening, the hammers would not line up to the firing pins. He is very disheartened and will take the action back to the shop that did the work. The original shop is considered by many to be experts in case coloring and I won't disclose their name until they have an opportunity to fix the problem. The gunsmith is outraged and has said that if things are not made right, he will no longer send them work. Please excuse any misstatements on my part as you are reading this second hand.

CCH. Always a risk. I do my own, on my own guns, not all but some. Always very scary when annealing and more so dumping red hot metal parts at 723 degrees into freezing cold water. A lot of it comes down to the metal quality and compound make-up and hence the risk of it happening. I hope you/your friend gets it sorted out!

Cheers
T

Well,there go's any thought's I had of having gun's re-cc'd !!!awful disappointing stuff,I hope it all work's out for you in the end,the way fella's talk of it around here and other place's make's one think it's no big deal...

Apparently it can be.
I do hope it get's made right,all the best

Chris

In the British Trade after hardening the gun was passed to a "Free'er" who did all the complicated stuff,making sure it was on face tight in the action and that the bites were correct. and made it work .The Free'er could make the difference between a good gun and a bad one.After this the barrels were blacked[blued]the furniture's blacked and the gun would be assembled and tested before delivery. I did this for 4 years for a well known Birmingham Gun Maker,some actions needed hardly any work at all but some seemed to have moved in three if not four dimensions.
You have my sympathies.

Yes

It would be interesting to know who did the case hardening; that is some serious movement.

I had a Wincester 1886 that came into the shop, owner claimed that his gunsmith sent it out to have CCH by someone who "specializes" in CCH. and when he got it back couldn't get it back together.

Sent it to me to fix.. I could immediately tell that the frame had been quenched at too high a temp in a brine solution (colors told it all). Frame was badly warped, I annealed the frame, then about 5 hours of work to get it straight, and re-Case harden.

The owner spent quite a few dollars

V/R

Mike

Incorrect tempering of receiver surface metal is the inherent flaw in the use of the high heat bone charcoal process when applied to shotgun receivers. A dangerous situation may develop as a result of incorrect tempering of the receiver surface metal after the high heat bone charcoal coloring process is completed. This is particularly true of older shotgun receivers, made prior to ww2. Factory tempering specifications were inconsistent, as receiver metallurgy formulas changed from time to time. Unfortunately, much of the original factory hardening and tempering specifications have been lost. Even the best of mechanics are only guessing when they attempt to correctly re temper a shotgun receiver after subjecting it to a high heat bone charcoal hardening process.

Quality case coloring should provide cosmetic enhancement without endangering gun integrity or shooter safety....Be careful if you are contemplating sending your prized shotgun's receiver to a high heat bone charcoal mechanic.. He is going heat it up to around 1600 degrees F... Make sure that you get it in writing, that if the receiver warps in the heating and tempering process or that if it cracks after firing, then the mechanic will assume full financial responsibility for the destruction of your gun and/or your personal injury.

A low, controlled heat process, combined with specific chemicals is the safest way to recolor a shotgun receiver. So long as the heat is kept low and controlled, the original receiver metallurgy and heat treatment is not changed. No harm is done to the gun nor is there any potential for danger to the shooter, as a result of the re coloring process.

In summary, shotgun receivers should never be re hardened in the vain interest of restoring the cosmetic effect of case colors. Case hardening is a high heat process which alters the surface molecular structure of the receiver metal. Re hardening a receiver can warp it. Subsequent efforts to straighten the metal, either by bending or filing can only harm the fine original metal-to-metal fit and adversely alter the workings of carefully aligned internal shotgun parts. In addition, if the receiver surface metal is not correctly re tempered after the hardening process, then the receiver metal may be too brittle and as a result, may crack upon firing.

I dunno... maybe a torch is the answer.

Just based on what little description that was given on the annomoly, I'd say the warp was something that could be very small and the resultant hammer misfit is magnified by the geometry. It sounds like the fix could be very simple: slight bending of the hammer and possibly some side clearancing/polishing. But, I'm doing a diagnosis based on very little information.

To me, trying to twist or bend a frame would be scarier than refitting parts.

Friends:
Ed good is most wise. A good gun should NEVER be re-cased for the sake of vanity or perceived "aesthetics." There is simply too much that can go wrong. Especially with certain "well-known" US re-case shops.

Best, Kensal

Ed

With all due respect… you are full of it, or more precisely …you clearly don’t have a clue, the temps and process you cite are proof of that.

The heat treatment of steel is well understood by many that practice the art.

Faking true case hardening with the judicious application of a torch and some cold blues or Tincture of benzoin is kinda like restoring the Mona Lisa with crayons.

Mike

Serious problems that can occur during the case hardening process namely distortion and cracks. For example in my early life [50 plus years ago] I was considering recase hardening a gun of mine.To this end,I visited a well established Birmingham gunmaker and asked for a quote for recase hardening the action.The reply from the owner was;"only if you accept full responsibility for any distortion or cracks that may develope during the hardening process." Then to reinforce his position,he went back to the workshop and returned with the actions of a pair of Boss sidelocks that had been recase hardened.One action appeared sound the other had cracked during hardening.
Case hardening of parts such as the action of a shotgun that have many variations in section thickness and have sharp corners present, pose a significant challenge.The packing of the parts in the hardening box,protection of thin sections to prevent their conversion into high carbon steel, temperature controls and quenching methods are all critical if cracks and distortion are to be avoided.
For the above reasons I have avoid guns that have been re hardened.

Most people are adding to this and it's all positive. I've been researcing the art of CCH for a while now and only do it on my own guns. I operate at proper temperatures for low times and thus my colours are not deep but I risk less by doing this.

Everyone to their own. I don't CCH everything but some things...depends on what I feel about a particular gun.

T

removed

I'd seriously question the word of your friend's "gunsmith". Parker hammers have the firing pins cast as part of the hammers. They are not separate parts. Either he does not know what he is talking about or has been misquoted.

He probably meant to say that the firing pins would no longer align with their respective holes in the breech face. But, I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Stan

Jim Legg, The last line of my last post read: "Please excuse any misstatements on my part as you are reading this second hand."

Stan, Thank you.

The gunsmith is a personal friend is known throughout the country for his work. I repeat any misstatements are my fault.

I agree with Ed, whom I have previously ignored. Better to coin finish the frame with felt on a popsicle stick dosed with jeweler's rouge than to mess with the original integrtiy of the frame. Chops

This is the dirty little secret that no one ususally talks about with re-case jobs. I've had 3 guns re cased, a Parker, a Smith, and an Ithaca, two by the same shop and one by another highly respected smith. Each one warped slightly in the quench, none so bad as to render it unfit, but enough so that one or more of the perfect metal to metal clearances of the original gun were lost. Funny thing is, each gun warped in a different location. One wiggled on the hinge pin, one had a side plate about 5 thousandths proud at the front, and one wiggled at the toplever pin. I think it has to do with the temperature/time protocol of each different shop, and the way they jig and block the parts before putting them in the vault, as well as their experience with the particular model of gun. Bottom line, I wouldn't do another re-case restoration. Too much luck and too many variables at play. They sure do look pretty, but I'm giving up on chasing a young Marilyn Monroe, for the quiet elegance of a fading Katherine Hepburn. JMHO.

Its good to see more people starting to admit & fess up to the fact that you drop a piece of steel from above its critical temp into a sudden chilling quench there is always the possibility it might not result in just what had been intended.
The main point I would dis-agree with ED on is that if I were the Smith doing the work I would refuse to start until the owner had signed a statement to the effect it was at his request & "HE" accepted full resposibility for whatever came out.
"If" said smith had failed to warn the customer of the possibilities & received the Signed go-ahead then he of course should be held fully responsible.

Aesthetics is a personal thing, but in art class, a long time ago, I recall being told that the combination of brown and blue is one of the most discordant colorwise. So why the fascination with this precise combination when it necessiatates a risky procedure to top it all?

On another tack, has anyone tried crygenic treating of old guns, especially damascus barrels? Theoretically cryogenics should homogenise metal and reinforce their structure.

That's easy. It's because that's how they would have been created in the first place many of them. Retoration to the original design if you will.

OK.

ed good, if you are going to pass along opinion and instruction on heat treating steel, it would be helpful for you to become familiar with the terminology and definitions of the heat treating process.

I have a very hard time reconciling your opposition to re-case coloring and your vending of "torched" guns. There is no way you know the surface temperature of the center of a torch "spot." Hence, you have no idea what you may have done to that spot of metal.

Are there varying degrees of case coloring that can be done without warping or a chance of warping an action? Do the depth of the colors show this degree?
How about the two differing processes does that have an effect on the chances of warping an action?

A gunsmith friend was messing about with metal finishes once and found that heating mild steel to about 200 Centigrade and quenching in soapy water did yield something that looked like faded case hardening colors.

To get back to aesthetics, it is arguable that a well aged shotgun, with faded case colors would be more attractive than an obviously restored and somewhat "forced" surface with renovated case colors. This is ofcourse is only an opinion from someone who positively detests case colors.

treblig

There's a range of approximately 500 degrees the can produce true Case Hardening colors, with varying degrees of hardness. True case hardening produces a hard (wear resistant) outer shell, while the core of the steel remains soft. This allows for slight tweaking of the parts if needed.

Now Case Hardening is not a new or novel process, I've got over twenty turn of the century books on the process. Well understood process (at least it was back then). Remember, all sorts of things were case hardened...; car axles, watch gears, even Starrett case hardened their precision measuring tools; it was the quickest way to add a hard surface to soft steel

All types of data: time to temp to thickness of the case ie... 1500 deg for 4 hours will give X thickness of case, or the same can be had at 1600 deg for 2 1/2 hours but you must add an additional enegizer.

And even ways to minimize warpage

V/R

Mike

seems like every time this subject of shotgun receiver re case coloring vs. receiver re case hardening comes up, someone accuses me of "torching guns", which implies that i condone the use of an acetylene torch or other high heat producing source to heat up a shotgun receiver, in an open air, uncontrolled environment; in an effort to obtain the appearance of case colors. this practice sounds haphazard at best, and should be opposed by all who value fine guns. i know i do! for the record, i will repeat again here what i have posted on this subject a few times in the past:

I myself do not do any gun work of any kind. I have neither the skills nor the patience. Instead, i utilize the services of Ed Lander, for most of my repair and enhancement needs. Old Ed has over 60 years of experience in the gunsmithing trade and does fine work at a fair price. He has re colored literally hundreds if not thousands of sxs shotgun receivers using his low controlled heat, chemical process. For those who did not get it the first time, i will repeat: low controlled heat, chemical process.

Ed Lander has developed his techniques over many years of trial and error. He uses different chemical formulas to simulate different factory colors for different guns, depending on when they were made. For example, his work is so precise, that he can closely duplicate Philadelphia Fox colors, vs. Savage Fox colors. I am not sure, but i do believe he uses a potters kiln or similar device to precisely control heat. What i do know, for sure, is that his top priorities in all of his work are shooter safety and customer satisfaction.

Also, i wish to state here again that much of the criticism of old ed's case color work seems to come from those who make money pursuing the risky and dangerous practice of shotgun receiver re case hardening, in the vain effort to restore case colors.

I know this thread threatens the future business of the likes of sxs shotgun restorers and engravers; but the facts are the facts, as sadly discussed in this thread. all should be aware of the risks involved when contemplating messing with the original factory receiver heat treating of older sxs guns. the only good that i can see coming from this story, is that there are now perhaps a set of o frame parker barrels and hopefully, some nice wood available for use in the restoration of other fine guns. so it goes....

I’ve had a few of my old doubles re-color cased with no bad effects or warped actions so I’m thinking that it depends entirely on the person that does the work.

Look. The trouble is with this sort of thread is that what innocently starts as a question on what to do about case hardening that has gone wrong turns into a opinion boxing match. We all have different opinions and feelings on this process that's for sure.

I don't care what other people think about colour case hardening. I've spent a long time researching it and I'm doing it because I am fascinated by the science and black magic...if it goes wrong...tough on me.

Anyone knows that this is a risky business. Heating parts to first 820 degrees and then again to 723 degrees and dumping them into cold aerated water introduces stress to the parts.

Let’s stick to topic. What does the guy do? Simples...he contacts the company that case hardened the parts and asks if they are willing to cover the re-facing work or whatever is needed to fix it. Treb, you nailed it.

Cheers!
T

ball.: unfortunately, there are just too many horror stories like this one to take this subject so casually. if you have seen, as i have, a fine pre-war h&h sxs, with a cracked receiver, but really nice new case colors, then perhaps you would sing a different tune. ed

That's the thing. It must happen all the time. I'm not being casual I'm saying it as it is. Do it if you don't mind taking the risk, don't if you do!

treb: i wish it were just that simple. you have had good luck so far. keep in mind that the laws of probability and murphy are now working against you...ed

There are several ways to obtain color on gun metal, but only case coloring looks like case coloring; and only case color looks 'right' on a fine gun. While that's just my own opinion, I'll bet nearly everyone on this forum agrees with me...Geo

Personally I think the torch jobs of "Old Ed" the "Master Gunsmith" are hideous. So far I have found a grand total of ONE person that sees a beauty in that form of butchery and that is the one and only Ed Good (or Ed Lander). If the re-Case Hardening and Case Coloring is SO damn detrimental to these old guns, why are so many reputable companies offering it?

Let's face it Ed, not one person on this board agrees with your "warped" mind. Perhaps you stood to close to the furnace or drank someones quench water and it ruined your perspective of reality. It's a shame that gunsmiths aren't required to have a license and pass an exam to practice the craft. Maybe then they could "disbar" Old Ed and prevent even more guns from getting torched.

Gentleman,
Thanks for your support and insight. I am happy to report that the above mentioned Parker warp problem has been rectified. The warp was very minor and the action flexible enough to allow assembly of the bottom piece. Also, the hammers move freely. All is well that ends well.

Splendid!

ball: good news for wyobirds. bad news for the rag and bone man, ay what?

wyo: good news, re: parker reassembly. now comes the critical part. once you get your gun back together, it is most important for your personal safety, that you test fire it with heavy field loads to insure that the receiver metal has been correctly re tempered. if not, the receiver may be as brittle as glass and may in fact blow up in your hands like a letter bomb. the old tried and true method of test firing a questionable firearm is to tie it securely to an old tire. then, attach a 50 foot or so lanyard to the trigger; get behind a barrier such as a tree or stone wall and then, touch her off a few times and see what happens...good luck and of course let us all know what happens...

Ed,
With all due respect, the reciever being of mild steel and only casehardened thru carburization and heat treat, cannot become hardened throughout like a martinsitic steel. That's not to say a reciever cannot fail. Just that it will be relatively soft below the carburized surface. The carburized surface will be very thin.

Bang on Chuck. (forgive the pun)

Might be onto sOmething

ed, basic steel metalurgey is not complex and it has clearly defined words. If there is anything I wrote above that you disagree with, post back and we can discuss - civily. I have no intention of doing "put downs," only to get at truth.

Glad this has worked out OK for you. A small warp that requires a small bend is not a big surprise. After all, manufactureres had Hard Fitters to deal with warps in the initial casing of the action. What you described seemed to be a very big warp and would have indicated a serious problem in the process. Case hardening of mild steel is well enough understood that there should be no big problems when done to known procedures.

Spoken by a man who has never had to straighten a heat warped gun part...
There is nothing easy, and it is never "no big problem" if it is on Your workbench.

I think both of you are right. You can reduce risks by working within tolerances/thresholds. Sure it can warp too...but the longer you leave things in to bake the more likely the issue.

Wow, lots of passion and mud slinging going on, why?

T

All in the name of short term beauty...

wyo: it occurs to me that you guys out there in wyoming may not have trees and stone walls to hide behind, like we do here in nh. maybe, before you touch this thing off, you should dig a hole and then pour a few feet of reinforced concrete, you know, kinda lik makin ah bunker fer ah nuke ler test....

I have never cased a gun/action but, have many done for me over the 51 years I have been engraving firearms. Mr. Ed warns about the danger of CC an action & the preceived threat those in the trade face by his comments. I feel no threat to my business & doubt I ever will. In my 51 years of engraving & having actions/receivers/frames recased by top tradesmen, I have never had a complaint from a client. To me, this says quite a bit about the reliablity of this process. Go to good people & get good work ............. enough said.

Mr Hurst nice to see you are posting again, hope all is well. As far as Mr. Good goes he just has a cross to bear rather a torch by which he and his running buddy Ed Lander (if you can believe that) have desecrated any number of otherwise nice shotguns. I pay him no mind.

old ken has resurfaced...and with no complaints in 51 years? pa leese...if one can believe that, then he too is defying the laws of probability and our nemesis murphy...speaking of which, is it not about time for pa24 to resurface as well?

Not a problem Ed our ranch is on the Big Horn River and there are forests of Cottonwood and Russian Olive trees to hide behind.

The real Martensite is in Ed's head!

jack

vas est los est dis martensite?

It is something you will find in a metallurgy book... something you obviously have zero knowledge about. Why are you going out of your way to show your ignorance?

Oh, and about your alter ego Ed Lander's low temp and chemical process that duplicates original manufacturers' case colors... can you show us some examples please? All we have seen is grotesque spots, blotches, and burned surfaces. Maybe we need to drop some acid to see things your way.

keith: you sound like a nasty little bugger...and pompous to boot! but then, when one is trolling for trout, he sometimes hooks a sucker...

Gun parts, no. Machine parts, yes. Through hardened and case hardened. Most can be fixed but some have to be remade.

What is your recommendation on recasing?

Keith...right on..!
I have the day off
So lets all drop some LSD & look at Ed'd Colors....:)
Man , it's been years!

PS.. Ed...I'm not trying to stir the "Pot"...but one thing I thought strange is that you had a Gun I might have been interested in a few years ago, I called you & asked to come n look at it,as I'm in NH , & not very far from you... but you said I couldn't view it, & it had to be shipped to me/as in mail order.
I never could understand that.That could make a fella nervous
Franc

Hmmmm an 01 FFL is required to have "regular business hours" That certainly sounds like he is not in compliance with the BATF !

you have to expect this when you bonce your bait off the bottom. no tellin what you might stir up. ho hum....looks like its time to end this thread and cast a line else where.

Perhaps if you cast a line with a magnet on the end you'll dredge up a torched Ed Good Special from the bottom.

Ed - When you live on the bottom you have no choice but to feed on the bottom. Must get lonely down there!

C'mon back Ed... you still haven't shown us any torched guns that duplicate original factory colors. Before and after pics would be real nice.

Oh, by the way, I'm not little.