I just read an interesting article in GARDEN & GUN MAGAZINE concerning the gun that the author Ernest Hemingway used to end his life. I had always heard the it was a SxS Boss but the article' s researcher states that it was probably a W & C Scott Live Pigeon Gun that was a favourite of Hemingway.

The article further states that, after his death, the gun was taken to a local welder in Ketchum, Idaho to be cut into pieces that were then buried in a field. The researcher further states that the welding shop is still in operation being run by the grandson of the original owners and that he has a few of the pieces of the gun that are surely not from a Boss. I find this interesting & I hope that you will too.

Best Regards, George

Yes, I do find it interesting; thanks George.
With kind regards,
Jani

Additional detail can be found in Hemingway's Guns -- The Sporting Guns of Ernest Hemingway. It's available at www.shootingsportsman.com

George, what issue of G&G?

EDM here: Bill, Garden & Gun is the coolest magazine to hit the newsstands recently. It's a lifestyle rag, somewhat like the Virginia Sportsman, where it's not just repeat excursions to South America to kill thousands of pigeons, but there are articles that interrelate with the bird-hunting lifestyle such like good restaurants and the ambiance of country living.

I first ran across Garden & Gun last winter when Nancy, ParkerDog, and I were camped out in the R/V at Apalachacola FL. I picked up a recent issue in the quaint bookstore; it not only had articles to spark my interest in double guns and bird hunting, but Nancy enjoyed the articles more within her areas interest, plus there was an article about the best oyster houses that we were frequenting on the Gulf Coast and several were in Apalach!

Suffice it to say that Garden & Gun is a breath of fresh air after all the same-old same-old rehashed time-and-time-again SSM and DGJ stuff.

The Virginia Sportsman supports the Vintage Cup and hands out copies of their magazine; if you didn't get one or more recent issues gratis, you missed out on some good reading that your spouse would also enjoy.

While on new and fresh reading material, anyone with the slightest interest in fishing with a fly should pick up a copy of The Drake. This is hands down the gonzo skate-boarding BMXing, ski-bum, trout-bum, fly fishing magazine of the 21st century. EDM

Bill: I believe that it's in the March 2010 edition. GARDEN & GUN is published here in Charleston, South Carolina and Ed is right, it's a breath of fresh air in gun/hunting/fishing magazines. Not just countless ads for hunts & trips the average guy can't afford, but wide ranging topics that both men and women are interested in. Try the on-line version & you'll see what I mean.

Best Regards, George

George when I saw the thread I figured you were hauling it around in the 'trunk' of your car.

Thanks for the reference to the issue. I am a charter subscriber to Garden and Gun and it is also available in Linda's office. It is the only paper publication that she doesn't object to me "accumulating". I also agree with Ed in his opinion about Virginia Sportsman. It is an excellent rag, introduced to most of us at the last couple of Vintagers where they exhibit.

Just browsed their website. It looks like a very good, assorted magazine!

Hemingway's Suicide Gun

JC

Sorry to rain on this parade, but this rag ought to be called "Gardens, Restaurants, Recipes, Travel (and Sometimes a Minor Article about Guns)". It wasn't always thus; when I first subscribed, each issue truly did have interesting articles about guns, hunting etc., including a funny article by Winston Groom about shooting in Argentina (not for everybody apparently). There is also an article in a fairly recent "American Rifleman" about how G & G would not accept NRA advertising. I cancelled my subscription.

Your daily newspaper may refuse such advertising also. Obviously, G&G is aimed at yuppies, but so is, oh, I can't say it. What year did you cancel the big three hunting and fishing publications? To be honest, the NRA thing is a good reason to wonder about those people, if it is true.

Friends:
Aside from the macabre interest in what type of gun Papa used to end his life, I find this thread transmogrified into a debate over a new periodical and the NRA. Fine. In that light, I regard ANY publication that promotes a positive outlook on shooting as beneficial.

You may not find all of Garden & Gun to your liking, but you can't "please all of the people all of the time."

As for their refusal to run NRA advertising, I don't mind a whit. There are some NRA ads that I wouldn't want in my magazine. In fact, I thought about resigning my Life Membership if they endorsed Harry Reid for re-election. They haven't. But like Lincoln said, you can't please all of the people -- but you damn well ought to prevent the nation from perishing from this Earth. Thankfully, Reid is toast.

Best, Kensal

Not a bad mag and something occasionally of interest, but not of much of much use unless you spend a lot of time below the Mason-Dixon line. I was a subscriber but now just get their occasional on-line blurb, which is where I saw the Hemingway gun article. I did order the book though: $26 and change with free shipping on Amazon.

I've always wondered how one goes about canceling his subscription.

Does this, of necessity, involve an irate letter to the editor? Or can it be done by phone, or e-mail?

If they keep sending the offensive rag; what next?

Did you get your money back, prorated? Or were you able to return the previously received issues to get a full refund?

Oh! By the way, did the American Rifleman article state whether the NRA was going to actually pay for the ad, or simply expected to get it gratis because Garden & Gun seems to be of the symbiotic gun-loving genre? There is an awful lot of free back-and-forth advertising and cross promotion in the gun magazine business. The possibility that Garden and Gun may not have seen any quid pro quo in the American Rifleman ad could imply that G&G respectfully declined to make a donation.

There was a time during Ron's tenure with the PGCA that Dan Cote respectfully declined to keep giving free DGJ ad space to an organization with $100K in the bank; Dan said he wanted to allocate the gratis space to start-up collector groups like the LCS, Lefever, and Fox guys. This did not make the DGJ anti-PGCA. I wonder what the real and complete back-story is on the NRA being "refused" (paid?) advertising in an otherwise gun-friendly magazine. EDM

It sits right next to Better Homes & Gardens at my Dr.'s office in N. VA. Found the premier issue there and subscribed but now just pick it up from time to time when an article catches my eye. My better half digs it but she's more into fly fishing and subscribes to The Drake. She's cool.

The article ("Random Shots" on page 26 of the October 2010 issue of "American Rifleman") indicates that the NRA intended to pay for the advertisement and that the reason for turning it down was G & G's policy of not running "political ads." Incidentally, about a year ago there was a fluffy article on Louisville in G & G, which failed to mention that Louisville is the site of a big gun show and a first-rate firearms museum, not to mention its proximity to a virtually unique twice a year machine gun shoot. They did cover the barbeque joints pretty thorougly, though.

Thanks HOS, it is always good to be able to evaluate various points of view.

JC

The Lefever Arms Collectors Association actually pays for its ad in the DGJ. SSM donates ad space in exchange for a membership.

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion but I see the magazine as upscale fluff. A recent article refered to Bo Whoop as shooting "90% patterns at 40 feet." Not the kind of typo that a magazine truly knowlegable about firearms would make.

In the latest issue they had a peice about owning high end guns up to $250,000 and showed a pair of Watson boxlocks that are at Kevins in Georgia as an example. It's a pretty magazine that's a blend of Southern Living and a fluffy gun magazine with the emphasis on style instead of function.

As to refusing the NRA ad, I figure NRA isn't politicly correct enough for G&G. I fear that without the efforts of the NRA Garden and Gun would likely be Garden and Golf Club.

Bravo. Well said. I also agree with all who say Garden and Gun is way too light and superficial on the subject of guns, especially considering that "Gun" accounts for 50% of its' title. I've bought and read several issues and was mildly dissapointed. The fact that they refuse to print a paid NRA advertisement is enough to insure that I will not buy another. I can't say I like everything the NRA does but there is no organization that even comes close to their efforts to preserve shooting sports and the Second Amendment. When it comes to endorsing politicians, you must remember they are a single issue organizantion. Endorsements will not be based uopn health care, abortion, free trade, or anything but support for Second Amendment rights. If other issues outweigh that in any particular race, you have the freedom of choice when you enter the voting booth. So far.

This thread was started just to give everyone here a "heads up" on a great article concerning a famous gun and the legendary author who it belonged to. Ed & Kensal called it. This thread has morphed into magazine critics & political activists.

G&G is a magazine designed to appeal to a broad audience, not just the gun crowd. The fact that it is a Southern publication , to me, makes it even more unique. I would venture that it's audience is, as a majority, that would never pick up a DGJ, SS or the American Rifleman. Just think, some of those folks might just change their minds about guns & shooting. With all the "anti-gun" folks around today I'm thankful for any help our side can get and from any quarter. They even have some great game receipts as well.

Best Regards, George

I am in agreement with the concept that any promotion of hunting and firearms is appreciated. If the overall format of the magazine doesn't appeal, it most likely isn't targeting you as a subscriber. The NRA will do fine. Maybe G and G will come around in time.

Would anybody want to own a firearm that had been used in a famous suicide; bad vibes or makes no difference?

Bad vibes, definitely. But I can tell you about related "friendly" bad vibes. My parents lived in Cuba in the late 40's -early 50's. They used to see Papa a lot at one of the local bistros. My mother finaly decided to bother him and got him to autograph her first edition of OLD MAN & THE SEA. Years later, back in the states she lent the book to one of her friends, who never returned it.

Garden and Gun is what it is. I bought my wife a sbscription after we returned from the Southern SxS this year. One of the photographers was at the event and photgraphed our dogs for the article on the Southern. They are the two pups, one Brittany and a solid brown GSP that are in the article.

She enjoys the magazine for what it is, a southern lifestyle magazine.

If you don't agree with their advertising policies or don't like the content, then don't subscribe to it. I see no need to bash the magazine that at least makes an attempt to highlight our guns and our sport in a positive light.

I apologize if I offended anyone and suppose I shouldn't have used the word fluff. The gun content to me seems superficial and since most of the folks on this board are more in depth concering guns, in fact this is the most knowledgeable group I know of anywhere, I assumed most of us wouldn't be interested in somewhat shallow articles about shotguns.

It is a very pretty magazine and one that looks really nice on the coffee table.

As to owning the gun Papa used to end his life, I feel it was a shame to cut the gun into pieces. I guess I'm so attached to the thought process that guns are just instruments wielded by men's hands, I can't understand the thought process.

No one respects the writing of Ernest Hemingway more than I. He was a great writer, on of the best of our lifetimes and I certainly know no one in his league today. Having said that, I wouldn't be uncomfortable shooting pheasants or clay targets with the gun he used to end his life.

I don't see the gun as evil and I don't even see the tragedy of the way he chose to end his life. Anyone who read his writing with any perception knew him well enough to not be surprised at his choice and that is exactly what his suicide was.

I'm sad he's gone, but I'm a writer, though in his league, and if I could do none of the things I enjoy and I didn't feel it would be too traumatic to those I love, I could certainly see ending my life as an option.

Papa had dementia, he could no longer function as he wanted to live life. My father died with dementia and I know the torture it is.

I respect his choice and the way I see it, the gun he used in a nice shotgun that Papa enjoyed. I think it's a shame it was cut up.

Just my opinion. I'm on vacation and have time to give opinions this week.

As I said in an earlier post, I am a charter subscriber. I am going to give it a shot and see how the next year or two pans out. I'm sure they would appreciate an article from a real gun guy if you fellows are interested.

Having read the definitive biographies by Carlos Baker (who named the gun---a Boss) and James R. Mellon (most poignant and descriptive of the end), I could take no pleasure from owning or using the instrument of EH's death.

True, the Boss of itself was not different from any other object. It's the spirit---or thought process, if you like---that concerns me. And the spirit is concerned with the significance that relates one object to another.

EH saw the totality of things, which only the eye of the spirit can see. As an old Samurai with failing body, he chose his Boss with tight choke he had used for years of pigeon shooting to bring his epic flight to an end.

Guns are more than just instruments wielded by men's hands, as tens of thousands of members' messages revealed to me here over the years.

I like the writings of EH but he was a greatly flawed individual and the way he chose to end his life was selfish and thoughtless. There are many better ways of ending your life and they will not leave your survivors with more trauma than was called for.

You have to wonder why suicides run in families. Is it in the genetic make up or once one family member takes his life it seems a more acceptable solution. EH's granddaughter also took her own life on or near the anniversary of her grandfathers death.

His youngest son died shortly after being arrested and spending time in a woman's jail dressed like a woman. I believe I remember his oldest son saying once that the gun he commited suicide with was either a Beretta or a Model 21. I have it taped somewhere but it has been so long since I watched it, I can't remember what it was. They had a show on about Hemingway and had his oldest and youngest sons on it. I remember his oldest son was standing in the very spot where his father commited suicide and explaining how he had stuck the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. I'll have to pull that out and watch it.

The generally accepted version of Hemingway's suicide involved a 12-b Boss shotgun that he had purchased from Charles Wicks at Abercrombie & Fitch (A&F). As to what Baker and Mellon wrote -- the French philosopher, Montaigne, once observed that "Nothing is so firmly believed as what is least known". The A&F books do not contain any record that Hemingway purchased a Boss shotgun. Two of Hemingway's close hunting associates (who are still living) know nothing of him owning a Boss. The surviving parts from the suicide gun have been closely examined and are definitely not from a Boss, Beretta or M21.

Our good friend from Australia in his book Reflections, Man and Boy had a story about a sucide gun, "A good killer." If you do not have a copy, you should. Written by Ron Forsyth and probably still available on Amazon. I have both a signed paperback as well as the late hard cover edition.

Interesting thread regarding the disposition of suicide guns. It so happens that my younger brother owns a Rem. 870 that was once used for that purpose. A neighbor/friend of mine (and a somewhat troubled soul) got drunk one night, got in a fight with his girlfriend, then put the muzzle under his chin and pulled the trigger to "show her". A few months later, my Dad got a call from the father of the deceased friend. He lived out-of-state and we'd never met him until the funeral. He said that our local Sheriff's office had contacted him about the gun and asked what he wanted done with it (investigation was now complete). He knew no one else in our state but us, and asked if we'd like to have it, or if we might know someone who could use it. Neither my Dad nor myself could come to grips with the idea of owning it, but my younger brother had not known the deceased (he was away at college when the friend moved into our community) and did not own a shotgun at the time. So my Dad accepted it for my brother, and the father of the deceased instructed our local Sheriff's Dept. to release the gun to my Dad. Interestingly, at that point the gun "disappeared", and my Dad was told the gun had been destroyed some time ago (total BS, since the friend's father had just gotten the call a day before). My Dad happened to know the actual Sheriff somewhat, so he asked him if he would look into it. The gun magically re-appeared within a few days. (Surely some Deputy thought he was getting a free gun until the boss started sniffing around). My brother still owns and hunts with that gun every year (and it is still his only shotgun).

"Generally accepted" on two points---the gun's maker (Boss) and seller (Wicks)---is surely subordinate to the authorized biography, seven years of scholarly work by a distinguished writer, academic and friend.

"He chose a double-barreled Boss shotgun with a tight choke."

Specificity at this delicate juncture, authorized by EH's family and trustees, carries more weight than the contents of A&F records and the celebrated sceptical musings of Montaigne.

Name a Great Writer that was not screwed up like a Soup Sandwich ? I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Did this biographer measure the chokes? Do you really need tight chokes at that range?

I'm trying to remember of Hotchner's book mentioned the gun. As to cut up parts of the gun used, I don't mean to question the ethics of the person who produced them put I suspect a cut up section of the gun would fetch a handy price and since there's really no provenance?

Truth is, It makes little difference. I wouldn't be interested in owning a useless peice of the suicide gun but I'd be honored to own one of Ernest's guns.

As to Hemingway being screwed up, I don't think he was exactly a role model but I suspect most of us would not look too good if a half dozen people chose to investigate every particle of our lives and report on that which was most "interesting."

King:
But what about the shotgun artifacts shown in an earlier post held by the firm that purportedly destroyed the gun? They do not appear to me to be from a Boss shotgun. I always look for a motive when tracing someting like this story and who whould be motivated to fake fragments from a destroyed suicide gun and to what end?
Jim

The JFK Library in Boston, MA holds a significant amount of EH material. Included are the photographs of Lloyd Arnold, who was the photographer for Sun Valley. His photos captured EH with many shotguns -- but no Boss.

I dunno but maybe he used the Boss because it was not one of his favorite guns and he knew it would be destroyed.

Jim, I can't comment on artifacts because it's the first I've heard of them, and would only be interested if they were referenced to time, place, authenticity, principals involved etc.

As Sergeant Friday used to say, "Just the facts, m'am."

When I have a lead on a story, I start at the most obvious place to check it out, in the same way when the tractor won't start I check for gas instead of tapping on the solenoid.

An editor told me when I started on a provincial daily 60-plus years ago to forget motives, don't impute motives, just get the who, what, where, when and how and the motives will look after themselves.

King:
I sent you a PM.
Jim

I was not being facetious when I asked if Carlos Baker measured the chokes of the purported Boss suicide gun. The who, what, where, when, and how given in the previous posts overwhelmingly refute what biographer Baker wrote.

The Guns and Garden researcher states the gun was probably a W&C Scott Live Pigeon gun.

The pieces of chopped up gun held at the welding shop in Ketchum, Idaho are not from a Boss, (or a Beretta or Model 21)
and three generations of welders have not tried to profit from the artifacts.

Jimmy W. states his tape shows Hemingway's son saying the suicide gun was a Beretta or Model 21.

Abercrombie&Fitch has no record of Hemingway purchasing a Boss from them.

Two of Hemingway's close hunting buddies know nothing of him ever owning a Boss.

The Lloyd Arnold photos in the JFK Library show Hemingway with many shotguns, but no Boss.

It would appear the imputed motive here is to hold up Carlos Baker as infallable and beyond reproach. The overwhelming body of evidence is that this biographer probably filled in some gaps with a little bit of literary license. He wouldn't be the first author to commit that sin.

But in the end, I agree most with RHD45 who said this suicide was a thoughtless and selfish act. If he could not stand the pain of living and felt he had to hasten God's hand, it surely would have been less traumatic for his family if he had washed down a bottle of Valium with a fifth of Bourbon. If nothing else, the world would have one more tightly choked gun for ED1 to hone out and torch color. Excuse me, Ed just sells 'em. Master Gunsmith Ed Lander does the choke and torch work.

Keith, almost everyone knows that no one is infallible and beyond reproach, and I know as practitioner of the craft and almost everyone else knows that historical accounts from most distinguished sources change with time as more information becomes available. It happens every day.

I'm currently working on two non-fiction books about a Canadian citizen-soldier and a painter. What impeccable sources provided when these persons were alive is seriously different from what's said about them after their deaths. The most surpassing BS is in official war records.

Ambiguity cloaks cited accounts of the artifacts. That's common. As for no one attempting to profit from them, not everything is about money. Our family stories are often skewed by repetition, however well-intentioned. I do not judge EH's action. He had lost his great mental faculties, his reason.

Regards, King

The guy had good taste.

King,

Exactly. I'm glad we agree, except on one matter... when my old Massey Ferguson won't start, my first reaction is to tap the starter solenoid before anything else. Usually that works. Actually, I can reach it with my left foot and give it a kick without getting off the seat.

jOe,

I suppose it would have been a bit tacky to use a tenite stocked Savage 311.

Can't reach solenoid with foot on my 1972 diesel MF 135 UK model, Keith.

I told a pressingly solicitous dealer last month that if he had a tractor on the lot I'd buy it---if it was as good as my MF.

With a big smile, he nodded and said "Yes, that was a good one."

Thank you. My wife works for a dentist and magazines are delivered to them free to put in the waiting room. She brought home the first issue of Garden & Gun as soon as it arrived. I thumbed through it and the first few but after that I told her to instead just throw them in the trash. Even before I knew about their issue with the NRA I thought their magazine sucked.