I've got a friend who regularly imports guns he's purchased at differing British auction houses. He does this mainly over the internet, but does take a trip over once or twice a year.Once here, he sends some of them my way for what should be minor repair, barrel blacking, etc. in order to re-sell.
Here's my problem[s];
Lately I've gotten several guns,[doubles], that have been hot tanked,loose ribbed due to this, out of proof,and off face. The other day I picked up a Coggie with the damascus pattern tanked over.[May the good Lord forgive the man responsible for that one, because I won't].
I'm writing this for a couple of reasons. One is that I think everyone here needs to be aware of this propensity. The other is that I think pressure should somehow be put upon the auctioner's to stop these appalling practices. If a gun is a bit off face, has been hot tanked, has loose ribs, or is out of proof, this should be noted. I believe once this starts happening, the people responsible will be forced to perform more on the "up and up", so to speak.
As I think many here may be, myself and another friend who was born, raised, and worked in the trade in London, both find this somewhat of a surprise. This type of thing coming from a place where traditionally were done properly, or not done. He's been here for thirty-odd years, but when I point out evidence of hot tanking, he assures me that things aren't normally done in that fashion where he comes from.
Are we both a bit naive on this subject? Have things gotten a bit lax because of the number of over seas internet buyers? It seems it would be quite easy to flog this type of crap off on someone who only has a couple of pictures to go by.
Any ideas, thoughts, advice? Particularly from some of our friends from across the pond. Perhaps some who have a bit of influence in the shooting world over there?
Quite Sincerely,
Jim

Personally I would never buy a gun without looking at it and having it in my own hands. I don't think one can blame the auction houses the item is what it is and it's down to the prospective buyer to determine it's quality and value. Personally I'm still gathering thoughts on the various auction houses over here. Some offer barrel thickness gauges and advice usually being the premium houses like bonhams and holts. Other less prestigious auction houses offer no support and buyer beware. Lastly if a gun isnt in proof they are legally bound to make this clear and must sell it off ticket. There is definately lot of crap shoved through the network too and for that reason you simply must see the gun first hand or commission someone like Dig to do it on your behalf.
T

Wherever there's big money to be made, there's this sort of behaviour. The most prestigious auction houses are caught up in celebrated fake and misrepresentation lawsuits all the time. No amount of influence this side of the ocean can change it. Discriminating buyers reduce risk by doing business with trustworthy companies or members with reputable records here. Buyers beware purchasing from unknown sources over the internet.

Sadly there are those willing to misrepresent anything if there's a buck/pound to be had. Always has been and always will be.

Agreed with the previous comments: buy from trusted sources or have someone who knows what they are looking at buy it for you. I'll gladly pay the extra cost and know that I got what I paid for than suffer a double loss (i.e. my hard earned money and a gun that's not safe or not what it was supposed to be).

If a gun is sold out of proof by the aution house they are liable and if you contact one of the two British Proof Houses they will take action. A gun out of proof can only be sold to a Registered Firearms Dealer and are usually advertised as 'action and forend only' with the barrels being sold to the RFD having been cut. Smallbore will be the expert on this subject. Lagopus.....

1 Contact the British Proof House's.
2 Name and shame ,there is no excuse for this sort of practice.
3 It is an offence under British Proof Law "To expose or offer for sale " a gun that is out of or unproofed. The offence is absolute and there no exceptions. As Lapogus Say's there is provision for a recognised dealer/repairer to take possession of barrel which have had a section cut away,for the purpose of sleeving.The only other way the gun may be sold is if a Proof exemption certificate is issued ,but this will onlt apply if the gun is of significant historical interest.
As to the rest auctioneers are there to sell for the best commision,some are not "reputable dealers" and still cling to the old adage of "buyer beware".
4 It is an offence to export a gun which is out of Proof or is unproofed.
Yes I have had some bad experience with them in the past,and so have many others.

I've bought a hundred or so through the auction houses over the last 5 years. Bonhams, Christies and Gavin Garnier are quite trustworthy. You may have to ask specific questions but the answers will be honest. Holt's will not devulge many major faults even when asked.

The following photos are of a Purdey that I bought a couple of years ago and are typical of Holt's. The photos provided to me before the auction did not show anything amiss. These are my photos upon receipt. When I asked Holt's for a refund I was told that "They were not required to state all problems with a gun", and that they would not refund any money. Having said this I still buy from them but I bid as if the gun is cr@p. That way I'm not suprised. I also still win a few this way; i.e. the Ribgy .275 that I just bought. I expect it to be much worse than the photos provided to me, which I had to ask for 3 times beginning 3 weeks before the auction. With Holt's it's really buyer beware.

If this needs to be deleted because of bad mouthing feel free.

How expensive (and difficult) is it to have a firearm collected (if you're the successful bidder) and shipped to you in the US?

This post has raised many issues.

Gnomon, It should not be difficult but is may be (relatively) expensive, depending on the age of the weapon and who you ask to do it.

Diggory (Smallbore) and I offer relatively cheap transport of pre 1899 shotguns to the USA if they can be accommodated with our regular trips out to attend shows or whatever. Post 1898, delivery deadlines and other complications can make this much more complicated and expensive. (Diggory may have other matters taking up his time nowadays!)

Other shippers specialise in more modern weapons and so may be (relatively) cheap for these. I would recommend you contacting Dig or I for quotes/recommendations.

Jim, The auction system in the UK has increasingly been treated as a 'retail shop' by the internet buying community, much to the UK restorers' frustration.

Many guns achieve prices way beyond what they should because bidders choose to forget that they are buying at auction, where (other than the proof laws) 'caveat emptor' generally applies.

I spend at least 45 minutes per gun closely examining and measuring before carefully calculating restoration cost, retail price and hence the bid I can make.

Up until the last sale, I have averaged 1 gun purchased per sale at Holts, Bonhams and Gavin Gardiner. At provincial sales, where significantly less information is provided to purchasers, I have only bought a total 2 guns in recent years as every gun has been purchased for ludicrous prices, given their wall thicknesses etc.
This is all to do with the prices that these guns are achieving, if the price is right virtually any gun is worth restoring.

I can honestly say that I have only 3 times in the last 10 years discovered a gun at any of the London gun auctions that was out of proof and all of these have apparently been genuine mistakes.

However, when it comes to a non-proof related condition, pretty much anything goes. I have seen many Big Name guns being sold with no wall thicknesses published - caveat emptor.

All I can say is, please stop expecting to pick up a bargain from the big auction houses. These guns will have been crawled over by the likes of myself and Diggory and will most likely have issues that the auction house are unaware of. That is why we drop out of the bidding.

A common belief is that wall thickness is a factor in proof. It is not. I have had guns proofed down to 0.014" MWT (for a family heirloom).

Cracks in the action are a proof issue, not the forend.

Loose lumps are a proof issue but unless they cause the barrels to come off the face, they are very unlikely to be picked up at proof and no auction house has the time nor facilities to check them.

I haven't been aware of any caustic bluing of soft solder barrels in the UK but I suppose it may happen. I would guess that this would only become apparent when the barrels were hot tank tested for rib leaks. Perhaps this shows my ignorance or lack of exposure. Auction houses can hardly be held responsible for the poor practices of their vendors. Or perhaps they should be, another interesting discussion there.

This thread has been a great education for me in that it has informed me about what crap some dealers will buy and butcher in the hopes of reselling it to guys like me. I now have a few names in my quiver whom I will never buy from or recommend anyone else to buy from.

It's information we couldn't get anywhere else but here, Bill. From people we know.

There is plenty of worked over, tarted up crap here for sale. Why would you need to go overseas to buy it.


John Boyd

It has been pointed out to me by another reader of this sight ,that the auction rooms have been the place a lot of the trade in the UK gets rid of its tat, stuff they can not sell in the shop. As the auctioneers are frequently calling trying to get stuff to go in the sales ,guess what they get?

Yep can definately see that. The stuff they can't shift....hmm

Toby, thank you very much for our thoughtful answer. I spent many years as a dealer in antiquarian books (pre-1650) and maps. I used the auction houses to dispose of the dogs that eventually found their way into my inventory. Nothing unethical about that - I couldn't sell them but someone else wanted them. It is a common fallacy made by many people that auctions are the place to get bargains. Yes, they sometimes show up, and every once in a great while something escapes the notice of every dealer and expert who has pawed over the lots.

Anyway, thank you again for your response and I may get in touch with you privately regarding my desiderata. I get to London about twice a year but never when the gun sales are on!

Good post from Toby.

Mike, I recall that gun. It amazes me how many dealers overseas will buy guns at auction based on a cursory glance at a photo in a catalogue and (maybe) a chat with the auction house.

Auctions are full of guns with a lot wrong with them. Only a proper inspection will reveal what is needed and what it will cost in relation to what the restored gun will be worth.

You can buy good deals at auctions but they are hidden in piles of less good deals and it is easier to get burned than get a bargain.

If you are in the room, know your guns and experienced in spotting issues, you have a chance. If not, you are playing Russian roulette. It is not that hard to work out. If it was that easy to buy total bargains from auction overseas, everyone would be doing it.

Unfortunaately, as another poster said, many overseas dealers are buying in ignorance and selling on for a profit to the more ignorant.

If you are contemplating buying a £10,000 shotgun from an auction, why skimp on paying someone £50 to tell you in advance what is good and bad about it. If the news is good, you can bid in confidence and hopefully get something for a good price, if not, leave well alone. In either case, you got your money's worth.

Gun auctions in the UK are 'sold as seen'. End of. You don't see it, your problem. Those are the terms of sale. Descriptions are brief as they cannot then be said to have lied.

I have paid the inspection fee for several guns that I did not bid on. If I had not paid the price I would have most likely bought and been very unhappy. Each gun had several real major problems that would have made them a money pit which we all need to avoid. All were honestly described, well photographed and each had major flaws which would have cost more than the top bid price to fix. Win a gun for 1K, drop another 1K into repairs and then pay to have it shipped for 500 more. Your steal of a deal becomes a over priced gun that you will be lucky to ever get your money out of.

What are the real odds that you can buy a gun based on a internet photo, a fifty word or less description from the auction house and find a better value than a person in the room? Less than slim. The bargains, if they even exist, will be bought by those right there. You can tell the real value of a gun only in person and then if you have spent years evaluating guns and spotting flaws. Not very likely to happen over the net.

What you will end up doing, if you are not real careful, is over pay for guns with minor to major flaws that will only be found when you take delivery. Then waiting for months to get them fixed in the States. In general I have found it pays to get them fixed over there. More "good" smiths to fix the guns and the cost has been less than it would have cost here.

Toby,
I regards to the caustic blueing issue. When I see barrel flats black over, or a "too" shiny finish over pitting, or a purple tint, I start looking harder. At this point I typically find completely blacked bores, lumps blacked on the narrow side etc. All of this points to caustic treatment of the barrels. Many are not yet shot mind you. If I get no air escaping when the barrels are dunked in a tank of hot water, I simply take extra care to clean things up, then finish properly. If the solder is shot, it's either relay ribs or scrap them, depending on value.
My point is that many of these signs are relatively easy to spot, and that I've seen a good bit more of this than you seem to expect as the norm.
Jim