I'm working on a 1912 trojan, and am about to get into the barrels. I have a few questions as I get started that I'm hoping someone can help me with:

1) I've been told that polishing up to 320 grit paper is plenty. thoughts? Should I go up to 400, or beyond?

2) Any tips on polishing the matted rib?? Other trouble spots to watch out for in polishing?

3) What product are most beginners happiest with? I've been told by 3 people who seem to know what they're talking about to try Pilkingtons, the Winrest stuff, and "laurel mtn forge barrel brown and degreaser". (is the laurel mtn stuff a blue or a brown?? I confess to not really knowing the difference, if there is one. I want blue-black, not brown for an old trojan, right?)

Thanks,
Dave

You cannot go wrong with Pilkington's but you must be CLEAN and never touch with bare fingers metal during whole process. 320 grit is plenty fine enough. Use only distilled or rain water for the boils. Hang barrels on coat hanger hooks above bottom of boil tank. Card with DEGREASED 3/0 or 4/0 steel wool. Do about four repititions and blow barrels dry with strong hair dryer after each removal from boil tanks. Let age 24 hours after 4th repitition, then oil and set aside for a day or so. use blue remover rather than polishing rib, brush same with fine wire brush. You may not need to even polish barrels if there are not nicks or blems. Just use the blue remover first. Loverly, ain't it? Chopperlump.

Dave, opinions will vary, I will give you mine. For the first time rust blueing novice, leave all power polishing tools out. Polish by hand only with up to 320 grit, 280 looks really good as well. clean the rib matting with a small stainless wire brush, and all other cracks and corners you can't get to with paper, watch the bbl markings, go lightly.
final cleaning works best for me with Simple Green or 409, boil them before the first rusting, make sure the bores are clean.
Pilkintons is fine, I do all my carding with a fine stainless wire brush, .005 bristles I think Good luck, It is a lot of fun when you see the outcome, Frank

Thanks! My wife is stuck in O'hare right now trying to get home, this is passing the time quite nicely until she calls!
The barrels are in great shape, except there is an external section that has some speckles of rust that turned out to be very shallow pits. Lettering and the rib are just fine. I'm just sanding down to smooth metal, right? I had a reputable smith look at the barrels, he pronounced them just fine, and "overbuilt if anything", so I shouldn't need to worry about sanding TOO much, should I?? (within reason, of course)
Thanks again,
Dave

Dave; Either Pilkingtons or Laurel Mountain can produce a blue or brown. The difference is whether or not you boil the parts after rusting & prior to carding. Boiling changes the color to the blue/black. It also loosens the excess rust & makes the carding easier, so is easier to get a good job.
Miller

Dave,
On the pitted areas, a fine file can be used to help remove metal a little more quickly.Be careful not to concentrate on one small area, but feather the file work somewhat, so as not to create flat spots. Generally speaking, some shallow pitting will wind up fairly well hidden by the blueing process. Don't take the word,"blueing" seriously, the end result is black, which is why the Brits refer to this process as "hand blacking".
Sand away, when working by hand, you'll wear out before the barrel walls get thin.
Jim

FWIW, I would polish to at least 400 grit if not 600-800. Sort of depends on what you want and how you will be doing your rusting. If you go slow with a dilute solution and not too much time in the humidity box (or no humidity box at all), you can keep a much nicer (in my opinion) luster. 320 is far to course for my tastes.

You are polishing with a hard backer of course! And from muzzle to breech and back again...

Also, you can touch the barrel all you want while you are polishing it. I use WD40 as a polishing lube, so everything gets greasy. Just wash in the hottest water you can stand, with good dish soap and rinse well. Then it is "no hands"...

Brent

so am I correct in assuming that the finer the grit I polish with, the glossier the black will be? 320=satin, 600=semi-gloss, 800=gloss(or something)???? I don't want to see sanding marks, but beyond that whats the diff.???

IMHO If you polish up to 600 -800 you will have thinner high polish blue that looks more like a new Browning rather than the coarser deeper blue/black of a 1912 Trojan

When rusting, you basically bring the metal back to about a 320 grit, no matter how fine you polished in the first place. I've taken barrels to the 600 grit level, and then tried to rust lightly, using diluted agent, short rusting times etc., but it always seems to come back to something around that 320 finish. This opinion is based on comparison with other guns I've done, using differing methods.
I can see potential for a slightly finer grain, in perhaps the 400 grit area, if one stops before the metal has turned a deep black, as I've seen this while working. It's rare that the color is completely even, at that point, and usually a trip to examine it in the sunlight has dispelled my urge to stop there.
You can, however, rust to a more coarse finish than 320 by rusting too long...
This is all simply my opinion on the subject. At one point I was trying to acheive a "Belgian Blue" through hand blacking. I found that some metals will allow you to stop at a slate color, which is quite pretty, but it's not blue. I've come to believe that the difference lies more in the metal, than in the process. I've used and experimented with several rusting agents. It seems to me that different agents can yeild different browns, but once boiled, it's the metal that determines how deep a black you can acheive before things start to frost. A telltale sign is when you first see small areas that no longer turn black when boiled. If pushed beyond this point, most metals will start to take on a coarser appearence. What I refer to as frost. I've found I can beat this rule, slightly, by very light rusting and careful attention, but not for long.
I think we all need to come to the realization, those doing this work as well as those having it done, that we are all at the mercy of the materials we have to work with. Which is largely an unknown. Often I have changed procedure or agent in the middle of a job, in order to try and acheive the "look" I was after. At times this worked well, others I wound up starting from scratch again. In a couple of situations, I simply had to settle for the best the given metal would allow. A German target pistol I blacked recently comes to mind. No matter what I did, or what solution at what strength I tried, after the second or third application, the metal would show an irregular grain. I even tried rusting heavily, in order to hide this in the "frost", no go. On the fourth attempt, starting from scratch, I rusted lightly and often, until I got a deep black, and ignored that grain. The customer was quite happy. I was not, and charged him as though I had only done the complete process once. I chaulked it up to a time consuming lesson and experience.
I'll probably never see another pistol like that, but I'm certain I'll see that metal again, at some point.
Jim

I agree with chopperlump and Jim on all the basics. However, I have found if you go beyond 320 it causes it to be shinier than the originals. I have used the Baker solution and method on several doubles and Single shots and
they have turned out well.

Thank you all very much, I appreciate the detailed replies--it's a huge help.

Now off for more sanding...

I don't know what orginals you mean, but a good rust blue will never be glossy, nor will it be rough unless you deliberately make it that way. 320 is way to course to look right in my opinion. A good winchester type bluing can be had w/o any risk fo the dreaded gloss - but go finer than 320, and probably finer than 400.

Brent

The Double Gun Journal has a number of excelllent articles authored by Oscar Gaddy, considered by many as the foremost authority on restoration, whether rust bluing, case coloring, or damascas restoration. They will sell you reprints for a reasonable cost, and the data is priceless. He includes recepies for rusting solutions as well. I use his formulations in my restorations, and my clients have been very happy with the results. raltenhof

320-360 is the most needed any more is wasted labor. (sorry to say) the rust bluing will work best and fastest at this grit. Higher will just result the same with wasted labor.

Ken,
That just flat out ain't true. Been there done that.

Brent

BrentD,
I have to agree with Ken.
It is very dificult to start rusting when the metal is polished to much.
I have done rust blueing for over 25 years.

Casey

Casey, Like I've said, I've been there and done that as have many many others. I rust blue them to different degrees of luster for different types of rifles. I've seen some done to an even higher gloss than any I have done.

If you look at lot of english double shotguns, damascus in particular, you will see many that have a much higher degree of polish than 320 grit. In fact, some are better than 600.

Brent

Brent, I can only tell you what I do.
I was bluing a reciver for M42 Winchester
The customer did the prep job that included
very high polish.
It took me more than a week to get the blueing done, and I was not to happy with the results.
But He did like it.
The next one I did I used a 360 grit Scotch pad, and went over His polished job and this time
in 3 days i had the finish that He told me he almost wet his pants over it.
Casey

Casey, might be your method. If you get a customer that wants a fine finish, you need to start very slowly. With a just barely damp applicator rubbed on repeatedly.

I did a Ballard .22 with a new Douglas barrel that I had polished to 1000 grit this way. It did not finish with the same 1000 grit polish, but it was easily 600 grit equivalent, maybe better than that. The trick is to start slow. It will be very very even. I don't even use a humidity box. You may also be using a reagent that is just to aggressive.

Jim Westberg up in MSP showed me a Rigby Ballard he has built for a customer. He has a barrel that is easily the equal of 800 grit. It has a beautiful deep luster that just won't stop. I think he used Mark Lee's product but I can't be sure. Jim does beautiful work.

Brent

320 and forget it the rest!

Agree 100% with "Battle" remember the orig question was from a interested novice on rust bluing on a Parker Trojan. Not a custom Rigby Ballard

I polish to 320 grit, as going above that will not change the final finish. Actually, I go to 400 grit to be sure I have all of the 240 grit scratches out, then I sand with 320 for a second time. The mechanics of how rust blues work will make finer polishes look like 320. Also, I have had a hard time getting the solution to "bite" (start rusting) when going to higher finishes than 320.

How come Art's Belguim Blue isn't mentioned here by anyone. Is it inferior? I used it successfully on an old belgium hamer gun and wa happy wih the results.

Thanks for the knowledge of others.