Picked up a nice William Cashmore made for Kirkwood Bros in Boston Mass...any way to get a ruff estimate of the age from the proof marks ?

A better picture up close would sure help jOe......hard to read as is, even after blowing it up.....

Looks like a nice gun, congrats.............

I reposted a better picture...I think.

Is that off a "pigeon" gun? Stout proofs.

Much better picture jOe....I see everything but a date code.....the expert Raimey will check in shortly and most likely figure it out knowing what was stamped when and by who........

Ejectors for the Tennessee turkey's......first cabin there jOe....

Hi, Birmingham Proof House under the Rules of 1925 (1925 to 1954).

Looks to be a Waterfowel gun or pigeon as eeb said.

All the best!

Greg

it carries service pressure of 3&1/4 tons per sq. inch or 900kg/sq.cm. capable of handling loads equal to 36gm alphamax or less if in very good mechanical condition. w/o knowing rib style and stock dimensions it's difficult to say what purpose it has been built for.

Joe, Looks like you have a turkey pounder there. Don't mean to hijack your post, but I have a Cashmoor and am curious as you are to the DOM etc. Hope you don't mind if I put mine in the pile to be reviewed for DOM. I forgot my password for Image Shack so can't post any pics. My Cashmore is a 12ga., boxlock, ejectors, straight grip, 26" barrel, nice wood, little engraving, just keylines. Great little upland gun. Barrel flat has same configuration as yours regarding proofs etc. Only difference is mine has 2 5/8" chamber marking, proofed at 1 1/8 oz. Serial number is 20600. Mine doesn't have the screw in the barrel lug. Don't see how I get the ejectors out if need be. Joe, If you can, post a photo of your gun, I'd like to see if it is similar to mine. Randy

I hope to "pound" a few with it...the pristine 32 & 1/8" bores both measure .730 with a Baker bore gauge and are choked 40 thousands each. This gun is about 400 guns older than yours. I think the gun is all original.
There was a faded ink stamp on the really nice Leg O Mutton case that came with it..."Dr.Nenbert J. Fox".

The action looks allot like a W&C Scott box lock I had.

The action has side clips.

The gun has some pretty nice looking wood. The rubber pad is leather covered on only the bottom of the pad. The length of pull is 14 & 1/2" with drop points of 1 & 1/4" and 2 & 5/8".

Joe, Look at the length of those barrels !!. I'm partial to 26" barrels. What does it weigh? You mentioned yours is 400 guns earlier than mine. Why would mine have 2 5/8" chambers and yours 2 3/4"? Not challenging your comments, just think the 2 5/8 would be an earlier configuration for the chamber? I tried to find Cashmore information when I got it a few years ago, but drew a blank. It's cooling off up north, hope the same for you. Randy

Joe, Ask and you shall receive. I must have been typing the other reply as you were posting the pics. Your gun configuration is exactly like mine. Except yours is a higher grade with beautiful wood. Yep, the action is dead nuts to mine. I really like my Cashmoor and shoot it alot. Mine came xtra full both barrels, and I had them opened up to LM in both barrels. Great for pheasants, late grouse and close in waterfowl. Thanks for sharing. Hope others with Cashmores jump in and share their guns. Randy

The gun weighs approximately 7 & 1/2 lbs and has the standard round Greener cross bolt. I shot it today at a pattern plate it shot a great 40 yard pattern with #4's...just a little high.

As Greg says, quite rightly, 1925 to 1954 with those proof marks. I did look for the small mark that gives the date by way of a letter code. I couldn't see it so suspect that we can narrow it down to after 1941 and before 1950 when thay dropped that system for a few years. I've only got a bit on Cashmore serial numbers and dates but if my asumption is right it should be in the 19,000 to 20,000 range. Nice gun. Lagopus.....

Just over 20,000.

Nice gun. Glad you snatched it up. I thought it looked all original.

Great deal.

OWD

Congrats on a nice gun. I looked at that one and now I wonder why I hesitated. The pics on Cherry's site do not do that gun justice. If it's a pigeon gun I would expect it to shoot high. Great find IMO.

Joe, This is a pic of my Cashmoor (Missouri River Fall 09). Great guns. Sorta puzzled they were built rather recently. Randy

Joe, that seems to narrow the date down a little; at least to a 10 year gap.

Randy, nice dog. I would take you up on that but live in England. Not seen pointing labs here although I know of them in the States. Make a great companion to my young Chesapeake. Lagopus.....

Hi All,
Just found this site a few days ago and been educating myself in the archives, but here is a thread I can help with!
I think the date on Joe's Cashmore is a bit earlier than suggested above. I inherited a sidelock Cashmore from my grandfather, number 20003, and he died in a car wreck in 1939, hit by a drunk driver while enroute to his duck camp on Cape Cod.
My father used it only a little and the gun was well worn when I started hunting with it in the late '70s, checkering quite worn and the barrels silvered at the hand grip area. Bore is still excellent and action tight.
I have the hunting log from my grandfather's duck camp and there is a reference to his using a new gun, but I don't remember the date, believe early '30s.
If I have a chance this evening, I will try to find the reference in the log and a photo, but fear this may be beyond my capabilities on the computer,

If possible post some pictures of his gun also.

Joe, Has there been a determination as to the DOM on your Cashmoor? Appears that it was made prior to 1939 as mentioned by the one post. Doesn't anyone have a production schedule on the Cashmoors? The two serial numbers listed are 20003 and 20600 and you mentioned yours being 400 off of mine. Odd that 3 guns are within the same year of production show up at the same time. Nice to know when that year was. EverD..Is your gun set up for 2 5/8" or 2 3/4" chambers and what payload was it proofed. Randy

My gun is actually 3" chambers proofed for 1 3/8, "choke and 'choke, which seem to be IM and Full. There is a small T stamped on the underside of the rib. It was also made for Kirkwood Bros.

truly lovely gun designed to shoot woodpigeon on a flight line. they're rather tasty if you don't mind darker meat. my favorite was spaghetti pigeonnaise. it's too bad there are none to be shot where you live.

I was going by the serial numbering in Nigel Brown's volume 3 and the fact that there was no date letter code. Lagopus.....

Lagopus Is 13 over 1 a date code? If not where might the code be found? Randy

Hi, the 13 over 1 in a diamond is the bore size. This mark was used under the 1925 Rules of Proof. If the diamond had a 12 in it, then the bore was .729, 12 over 1 a bore of .740, 13 over 1 .719 and 13 .710

The date code should be stamped on the bbls.

All the best!

Greg

Greg, Inside the diamond is a 12 over C, just like Joes. What bore size does that represent. The 13 over 1 is on both sides of the barrel flats adjacent to the ejector bars. What? Thanks for your help. Randy

Hi Randy, the bore is .719 (or was at the time of proof). The 12C in the diamond is the gauge size for the gun. 12 the bore and C for chamber, not choke. There is also a LC which means long chamber. A diamond mark with a 12C would cover guns with a bore size of 12 or 13.

I messed up, the 13 over 1 won't be in a diamond, sorry, I got my wires crossed.

All the best!

Greg

The 12 over C refers to the the 12 ga. chamber being 2 3/4" or less when proofed. Nothing to do with the bore size.The 13/1 specifies that the bore,9 in.from the breech,was somewhere between .719 and .729 when proofed. Terry

I seem to have the Birmingham Proof House Private View Marks, but are there similar Marks for London ?

Thanks all for the info. Still nothing on the DOM? Anyplace where that is available? Not a pressing issue, but curious just the same. My SN# 20600, Joes within 400 of mine, and EverD's is 20003. Randy

Hi Daryl, the London Proof House does have a View Mark. It's a Crown over a V. As many (if not most) London Guns where made by Birmingham makers a lot will have BPH markings.

I have a Charles Boswell 16b, a London Maker with Birmingham Proofs for example. But as Boswell had a feud going with the London Proof House he had his later period guns proofed at Birmingham. On the other hand my Henry Atkin is London Proofed.

Ah...the joys of Brit guns!!! I love them!

All the best!

Greg

gjw, there is a list, starting in the 1920s for Birmingham "Private" view marks. One for each year. Is there a similar list for London Proofed guns ?

Hi Daryl, Birmingham Private VM started in 1921 with the Code "A" for 1921-1922 ending in 1941-1942 with Code "W". Codes "I", "Q" and "Z" were not used.

They started again in 1950. There are so many codes it would be difficult to list here, but in the case of the years 1950 on it was a two digit code for each year, for example "AB" 1950, YB for 1973. Just a couple of examples.

London Private VM started in 1972. An example would be LP over 98 for 1998.

Hope this helps.

All the best!

Greg

Greg, thank you. Daryl

RMC/Daryl. Birmingham date codes ran from 1921 to present with a gap from 1941 to 1949. London marks ran from 1975 to present. You will find them stamped on the barrel flats and are in the form of a small mark like an X which is actually a crossed sceptre mark. Within this will be a number 1, 2 or 3 for the Proof Master on duty that day. There may be one or two small letter also which give the year date it went through the proof house. You may need a magnifying glass to see them clearly. The crossed sceptre mark is about the size of this X on the page. Lagopus.....

Hi Daryl your quite welcome, happy to help.

Hi Mike, say, Brown states that London Private VM's started in 1972. Is this correct or was 1972 a year that was a preliminary date? Just curious.

Thanks and all the best!

Greg

Do apologise; yes 1972. Mishitting keys. Lagopus.....

With the help of a magnifying glass and Lagopus' post, I believe I've found a Birmingham view mark on my gun on the right tube just forward of the flat. There is a small x and adjacent F, no numeral. This would suggest 1927-28 which fits with the gun's family history, giving my grandfather 10 years of salt marsh duck hunting to establish its patina.

Date right for F. The letter should be in the top part of the X and the number in the lower. Lagopus.....