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Posted By: arrieta2 Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 12:03 AM
You guys will get a kick out of this storie. One of my shooting guys just got back for there, he shot for 4 days straight. Shot 15000 shells. Killed 11 thousand doves. He used a match pair of Merkel 20 ga guns. Now I know this is hard to believe, but I know him well. Just like going to Africa, most people go and shoot 1 elephant. He shot 3 or 4. I can not remember if it was 3 or 4 but I do know at least 3.
If I killed 11000 doves I sure wouldn't tell anyone. Hope the guy really likes to eat doves. What is an elegant?
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 12:42 AM
Extra fancy Elephant
Posted By: Lorne Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 12:48 AM
I believe it was Oscar Wilde who said, "Nothing succeeds like excess."

(Oscar was generally considered to be an elegant.)

15,000 shots in four days is 3,750 shots a day. If we allow 4 hours to eat, sleep, relieve oneself, and brag, that leaves 1200 minutes to shoot those rounds (or 3.125 shots per minute for 20 hours each day for four days, better than a shot every 20 seconds). And . . . he also shot three elegants in his pajamas.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 12:51 AM
Keep in mind his cartridge bill was over $6k U.S. of A. It's tough to drop 3k per day with a 50% - 60% ratio.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: PA24 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 12:52 AM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Keep in mind his cartridge bill was over $6k U.S. of A. It's tough to drop 3k per day with a 50% - 60% ratio.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Not if you're an "elegant" pajama shooter from Texas.....?.... whistle
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 12:59 AM
I think I can say I've had the opportunity to shoot with some of the best down there seeing 8 Brits down 32k fowl with 56-57K cartridges over 6 days. If he had those numbers in 1 day, I'd be impressed. I can't remember if the top daily total is over 10k or not. I don't think Tom Knapp's health would hold out and I'd guess Anthony Materise might be able to make a run toward the top but it is grueling.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Hansli Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 02:07 AM
Maybe I'm missing something. I like hot dogs but I don't want to eat 52 in a sitting, even if they were free.
Why was the ELEGANT in this gentleman's pajamas?
Posted By: Jim Legg Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/09/10 02:08 PM
Well, he surely did the local farmers a big favor. I can't imagine myself enjoying that much shooting. My body wouldn't take it. I went to Mexico a couple years ago, with Mike Mason and killed maybe 150 doves. Wore a major blister on my thumb from stuffing shells into the magazine of the Beretta. Shooting thousands of shots each day would turn into WORK, for me
A friend shot 3500 his first day. We go on the 8-1 but are planing duck in the morning and dove, pidgen and perdiz in the afternoon. Our 3500 dollar fee includes 5 days of hunting and 2500 shells.Cordoba is to much for an old guy.
bill

Maybe you could shoot an elegant in your pajamas; my aim's too shaky to risk it.
Posted By: tut Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 10:37 AM
Reminds me when I was in a weapons qualification course to prep for going to the war zones in Afghanistan and Iraq. Qualification score consisted of shooting for score in both Glock and M-4 and Remington 870. Multiple dozen's of rounds of each on the Glock and M-4, different distances, different positions. Being a fellow who likes to shoot I was excited. One week later after shooting thousands of rounds to prep for qualification day, I had blisters upon blisters. Some from shooting, most from loading magazines by hand. Shoulder had turned to mush from shooting that little M-4 and from shooting 12 gauge buckshot. Finally emerged fully qualified at the end in everything, but it wasn't easy and it sure wasn't fun. I can't imagine shooting thousands of doves in a day would be fun, but that said, I would probably give it a try if I won the lottery. smile
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 11:16 AM
Nothing more than a disgraceful waste of Gods creatures.
Posted By: popplecop Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 12:37 PM
Sure wouldn't interest me at all, to each his own I guess.
Posted By: ed good Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 01:16 PM
i do hope saint peter takes the form of a dove, if and when this guy and others like him appear at the pearly gates...but, then come to think of it, i hope he does not take the form of a song bird when i show up...
Posted By: SKB Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 01:25 PM
Nothing like an open mind is there? Could it be that in South America they have different issues than we do regarding pest management? I know that my ideas of ethics did not fit in in New Zealand...They have completely different issues to deal with. If you were involved in agriculture there would you want the tens of thousands of Doves eating your profits? That kind of shooting does not interest me, but I am in no position to judge those that do enjoy it.
Posted By: Ken Georgi Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 01:30 PM
I wonder what St. Pete would do to the Argentinian farmers who would poison the roosts and kill the doves by the tens of millions if it were not for the hunting/tourist dollars that provide a better option for all.
Posted By: Chuck H Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 03:12 PM
11,000 birds and 15,000 shots, man that's some shootin'! Some kind of world record, I suppose. I'd probably enjoy a trip to Argentina, just don't think I'd try to beat that record.
Posted By: JayCee Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 05:44 PM
I get a terrible headache just by looking at those numbers!

JC

P.S.: Just to make it clear, South America has several countries with different
peoples and issues. Argentina has a serious pest problem with doves; on
the other side of the Andes -very high mountains we have over here- there
is no such problem and we can only hunt 50 birds per outing. jc wink
Originally Posted By: Lorne
I believe it was Oscar Wilde who said, "Nothing succeeds like excess."

(Oscar was generally considered to be an elegant.)

15,000 shots in four days is 3,750 shots a day. If we allow 4 hours to eat, sleep, relieve oneself, and brag, that leaves 1200 minutes to shoot those rounds (or 3.125 shots per minute for 20 hours each day for four days, better than a shot every 20 seconds). And . . . he also shot three elegants in his pajamas.


A shot every twenty seconds is slow shooting in Cordoba. And there is no way to shoot 20 hours a day, not enough daylight. I averaged one shell every fourteen seconds of shooting time my last trip, with a 20 gauge Beretta 687 SP II Sporting. I had to force myself to shoot slow just to get the time between shots down to that.

I would not want to shoot that much. I have found that 700-800 shells per three hour shoot is a good pace for me. No recoil problems from that number, and at the end of the three hour shoot I've had enough. Besides, it's about all the extra shells I can stand to pay for.

My averages run usually around 70% for the four days.

jOe, rats and cockroaches are God's creatures, too.

Stan
Posted By: Bob Cash Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 11:10 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Nothing more than a disgraceful waste of Gods creatures.


Locust too are Gods creation.
Argentina is a world top ten producer of course grain who loses as much as a third of their crop to "pests". Is it better to let choldren go hungry than to eradicate a harmful parasite?

It seem like a perfect "have your course grain and eat it too" situation to me.
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
Nothing more than a disgraceful waste of Gods creatures.


I seem to remember a bragging photo posted here several months back with five or six dead turkeys in it, all killed the same day by "someone". It was justified by saying that it was well within the limit for his state. Well, there is no limit on eared doves in Cordoba. So, if the limit is what sets your ethics, is what's good for the goose not good for the gander?

Stan
Posted By: arrieta2 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/10/10 11:31 PM
Stan:

Sounds like you need some shooting lession. One of longest clients is shooting in the low 90s and he is close to 80 years old


John
I guess I do John. However, having been there and done that I have seen how these averages are compiled. Your bird boy is assigned to you for the duration and keeps up with your tally of downed birds. Some of these young men have their mind more on what their tip might be on the last day than an accurate number of kills, if you get my drift. I have even heard of percentages OVER ONE HUNDRED PERCENT!!! Because of that, I take hearsay kill percentages with a grain of salt. Understand, I am not discounting your clients' claim, no reason to doubt you, but advertising is different.

That said, I have considered next trip, God willing, shooting specifically FOR a high average by taking nothing but "crip" shots. I honestly believe I could top 90 percent by doing that. But, I work on tough shots, high birds (when there are some), trying to see just how far out I can down an incomer with my first barrel, things like that. I once was working on some very high right to left crossers and must have gone 10 or 15 straight, WITHOUT A HIT!

All my best, Stan
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/11/10 01:29 AM
I eat the turkeys I kill.
Posted By: ed good Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/11/10 03:12 AM
joe: how about a little crow now and then?
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/11/10 03:55 AM
John, you stated what guns he used for that type of shooting, but what other guns would you suggest or know of that could hold up under that type of volume shooting or should I say that degree of pounding???

A Dentist friend of mine goes there with two Remington 1100, one for shooting the other for parts and destroys them both.
Posted By: arrieta2 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/11/10 06:26 PM
Treblig:

You asked about what kind of gun would hold up. None! Another friend took a brand new A & S gun down. Eight shots, ejector broke. The same fellow who did the high volume took a brand new McNaughton on a trip and craped out first day.

Now those two should have not craped out that soon. Maybe should have lasted at least to the end of the day.

John
Posted By: JayCee Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/11/10 09:22 PM
Originally Posted By: arrieta2

Eight shots, ejector broke.

John


You don't need to go to Argentina to shoot eight times!

JC
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/12/10 03:55 AM
John, thanks for the reply and you mentioned some top of the food chain firearms that failed. This could be a rather excellant discussion, taking a brand of firearm that someone could and would rely on for this type of high volume shooting.
I recently drove 2,200 miles (round trip) with my Ithaca double barrel as my only firearm, but I knew it would hold up to the number of shots I was going to take and it didn't fail me.

South America, however is a whole nother ball game.
The eared dove dove shooting in SA is an amazing thing to experience. No use dissing the numbers killed, because they're perfectly legal and a pest to boot.

If you go and don't wish to shoot the high numbers, then don't; but the birds are available, you're doing a service to the farmers, and you'll never experience shooting like what's available in South America anywhere else in the world...Geo
Posted By: Replacement Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/12/10 04:21 AM
I don't really have a problem with what amounts to depredation shooting for a fee, especially when the locals eat the birds. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is that some guys seem to think it's "hunting." It's not. The other thing that bothers me is more personal. One guy I know goes a couple of times a year, always comes back bragging about what a great shot he has become and then when we go to AZ for the 9/1 dove opener, he still can't shoot worth a crap.
Originally Posted By: Replacement
One guy I know goes a couple of times a year, always comes back bragging about what a great shot he has become and then when we go to AZ for the 9/1 dove opener, he still can't shoot worth a crap.


Don't know about your buddy, but my experience has been that the practice on live birds makes me a better shot; at least untill I forget how to shoot again...Geo
Posted By: Anonymous Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/12/10 11:43 AM
This has been a subject that has been of interest to me for some time - what guns hold up and what guns don't, under this, probably the most 'vigorous' shotgun shooting available.

As a career law enforcement officer, and having managed the firearms training program for a good sized federal agency once upon a time, I've developed a short list of what guns 'work' and what guns don't in that business - it would be interesting to find out from participants on this board what their experiences are with shotguns used in this 'high volume' shooting. I've never been to SA but several very good and very reliable friends have - they tell me Beretta O/U's and Beretta 300 series auto's work, although the later require cleaning periodically. But what about the other shotguns, perhaps the high dollar guns such as the A&S noted in an earlier post? How do the Perazzis, Krieghoffs, Brit SxS's work in this environment? I've had reports from reliable sources on UK driven shooting and guns that have had issues - some surprising given their makers - but doubt these guns even in 20 years of shooting would see the same 'abuse' as guns used in SA shooting. How about it folks - comments, opinions, speculation?
Posted By: tudurgs Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/12/10 11:55 AM
Three of us shot in Argentina - about 1,000 sheels each per day. Guns were a Beretta Silver Pigeon, Winchester M21 And Browning A5. All in 20 gauge. All performed flawlessly. Quality of the shells may also be a factor. Original local shells were notoriously unreliable and dirty. We shot locally-produced Fiocci and they were great.
I have been twice. The first trip I shot I shot a Beretta 28 gauge OU and with no malfunctions.

The second trip I shot an SKB 485 SxS 28 gauge and it worked perfectly. I also shot a Parker 16 gauge and one ejector quit working now that I think about it. It was still perfectly usable.

Best,

Mike
Originally Posted By: arrieta2
Treblig:

You asked about what kind of gun would hold up. None! Another friend took a brand new A & S gun down. Eight shots, ejector broke. The same fellow who did the high volume took a brand new McNaughton on a trip and craped out first day.

Now those two should have not craped out that soon. Maybe should have lasted at least to the end of the day.

John


I disagree, based on my own experiences on two trips there in the last seven years. Before I went the first time I bought a new 20 gauge Beretta 687 SPII Sporting (30 " barrels) to take. I also took a borrowed 20 as a backup. I shot a pretty good bit. Over 4300 rounds in four days first trip, and over 5400 rounds in four days last trip. Not one breakdown on either trip. The plastic will begin to build up in the chambers after 2000-2500 fast rounds and a quick swipe or two with a tight chamber brush will restore perfect ejection.

My first trip was with 7 other friends, last trip was with 16 friends. All of whom shot afromatics and had breakdowns of some sort or another. These were top drawer semis. Berettas and Benellis mostly. These were men who maintain their guns very well and clean them after each 3 hour shoot.

I didn't even take a backup gun the second trip. That may be foolhardy, but I knew Luis had plenty extra guns I could use if needed. I'll probably go back next year, and if I do the 687 will be my main gun. 10,000 rounds, furiously paced, no problems. Good gun.

Stan
My first trip to SA for dove shooting, I took a Remington 11-87 with an Ithaca 37 for back-up. Both were 12ga. The Remington only worked if I cleaned it constantly (replacing parts along the way) and the Ithaca kicked. After that 1st trip in 1989, I just took one gun with me and never had a failure in about 10 trips; a 12ga Citori. Clean out the plastic build up in the chambers and it was good to go. The Brownings are also heavy enough to absorb most of the recoil...Geo
Stan: The only weakness of the Beretta O/U design I'm aware of is the hammers. I've seen three broken hammers over the years, all on 682 trap guns. The 680 series hammers seem to be all identical. This seems to be a fatigue issue, as all failures were on guns that were well used.

If yours is getting up there in total rounds fired, I'd recommend either replacing the hammers before your next trip or taking a set of spares and some tools. Replacement is very easy, just pull the stock, drift the axle partially out, replace hammer, pull the tail of the hammer strut out far enough with a pliers to reseat the strut in the hammer, and reassemble. It could be done in the field in a few minutes if you know how.

Set of spares from Coles is under fifty bucks.

P.S. The stock bolt is likely to be a 6mm hex.
Every time I read a thread about Argentina bird shooting and the shotguns used, I'm reminded of story:
In Argentina, Remington 1100s are known as Remington 1099s because they always have one broken part.
The 1100 gets some undeserved bad press. Remington QC isn't what it used to be, but the design is elegant, serviceable, and inexpensive.

Dirty shells will bring one to a stop in 200 rounds though so be prepared to clean frequently. Just keeping the exterior of the magazine tube clean will keep it shooting. In fairness, I've seen a B-391 disabled by less than 25 rounds of early Estate shells so gas is dirty and the cleaner the shells the better. Load your 20 ga with 20/28 and it will survive a long day without any cleaning.

If you can't get clean shells where you will be going, don't bring a gas auto.

Bring spares, like maybe a complete bolt assembly and an extra firing pin and spring.

Best to clean before things start breaking. Field strip, blast with Rem oil, wipe clean, and start shooting again. I'd bet that an 1100 cleaned once an hour (takes five minutes) would do just fine on one of these high volume shoots.

The key is understanding your equipment and using it intelligently. Shoot to destruction and then complain is poor technique.
Posted By: Joe Wood Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/12/10 03:36 PM
I got tickled at the way the bird boys counted "kills". The ones I saw used a hand counter for the first box or two and then I never saw it again for the balance of the trip. These guys are in it for a nice tip and do everything possible to make the yankee happy and get him all puffed up with pride--works like a charm. The way they figured it, everybody shot 80% or so and all they had to do at the end of the day was count the number of empty boxes. My bird boy gave me some incredible percentage and I know with that little borrowed 28 gauge Beretta I wasn't even half close to his "count". (He did get a very generous tip--come on, even I sucker for an ego rubbing like that!)

Posted By: eightbore Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/12/10 03:49 PM
Joe, I agree that bird counts and dead bird percentages are bogus once you get south of the border. I would rather go for the gold on high birds and see if my shooting companions notice. Any good shotgun person should give credit to a good shot in his company. That credit is worth more to me than the "1000 Club" membership on the clubhouse wall.

IMO in guns for SA, break action gun are better, as they don't suffer as much as autos from dirty cartridges.
They stop ejecting, but still work smile
I would use a current production gun, Argentina is no place for vintage guns.
I've used Berettas and Perazzi, both without problems.
Berettas are great, as most lodges have spares and knowledge to do some repair on them if needed.
I use a chamber brush in the field if cartridges are too dirty.
Originally Posted By: Shotgunjones
Stan: The only weakness of the Beretta O/U design I'm aware of is the hammers. I've seen three broken hammers over the years, all on 682 trap guns. The 680 series hammers seem to be all identical. This seems to be a fatigue issue, as all failures were on guns that were well used.

If yours is getting up there in total rounds fired, I'd recommend either replacing the hammers before your next trip or taking a set of spares and some tools. Replacement is very easy, just pull the stock, drift the axle partially out, replace hammer, pull the tail of the hammer strut out far enough with a pliers to reseat the strut in the hammer, and reassemble. It could be done in the field in a few minutes if you know how.



Set of spares from Coles is under fifty bucks.

P.S. The stock bolt is likely to be a 6mm hex.


Thanks for that suggestion, Shotgunjones. I will definitely have some spares when I go back.

One other observation I have noted while shooting down there with some twenty-odd different shooters on the two trips. This will rile some I know, but hey, here it is anyway. On the first trip all the other guys were shooting semi-automatics which, by the way, are recommended by the "experts" for recoil reduction. Every one of those guys except one had severe bruising on their shoulders from the shooting. I never did with the O/U. Next trip everyone else in a group of seventeen started out shooting automatics. All were complaining after the first day of sore shoulders. One friend had taken his Kreighoff 20 gauge and switched to it. His recoil issues went away. My take on it. I watched many of them shoot their guns in an effort to understand the problem. Most mount their guns with their bodies not square enough to the axis of the gun. The angle of butt to shoulder induces a sliding movement in recoil which accentuates pain and bruising. The moving parts in the gun seem to exxagerate this gun movement as well. Though the improper mount is a big part of the problem I really believe that the slamming of the breech bolt increases the liklihood of the gun moving out of position on the shoulder.It always moves further out toward the arm, causing some drastic bruising.

It is absolutely unnecessary to take anything more than a 20 gauge and use anything more than 7/8 oz. loads for 99% of the shooting I have encountered there. I have only had one stand where I was faced with very high birds. The bird boy was anticipating this and brought a few boxes of 1 oz. loads. I tried them, saw that the extra 1/8 oz. was unnecessary even on the very high birds, and went back to the 7/8 oz. with just a bit more choke.

These are just my observations and carry no more weight than anyone elses' who has been there.

Stan
Posted By: eightbore Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/13/10 11:59 AM
If I were to use a Krieghoff for high volume shooting, I think I would install a weaker top lever spring. A Perazzi has a much friendlier top lever operation. If I had to build the ideal gun for high volume shooting, it would be an assisted opening gun that also closes easily and smoothly. The two that come to mind are the Model 21 and the 680 series Beretta. Whatever the choice, I would install the JS Air Cushion stock or another recoil absorbing stock with the butt and comb in one piece.
I've never shot K guns much, using a Perazzi to compete and the 687 for doves, so never noticed the heavy top lever spring you speak of.

One interesting note for first time planners to Cordoba. The weight of the gun is a two edged sword. A heavy gun will certainly moderate recoil, but will kill your arm muscles lifting it thousands of times a day, according to some I've shot with. Conversely, a light gun will not bother you mounting all day but will pound you more. Personally, the weight of the 30" 687 20 gauge is just right for me. I've never had any recoil issues nor had any fatigue at lifting it at the end of the day. I do use a Kick-Killer leather lace on pad, for lengthening the pull by 1/2", but it has the added benefit of spreading the recoil area of the butt over a larger area than the factory recoil pad.
Posted By: arrieta2 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/13/10 01:44 PM
The reason I said none is this:

Going to SA for high volume is a pastime in Houston. I have a great many clients that go on a consistant basis. So they have taken or used just about ever gun you can think of. At one time or another many have had problems. Some super expensive guns and others not so. Most are o/u or sbs.

The most common problem is broken ejectors.
Certain guns , springs. IE: hammer or top lever springs
I have had one guy shear off a forearm screw.
Cracked forearms on O/U

Best


John Boyd
Originally Posted By: Stan
I've never shot K guns much, using a Perazzi to compete and the 687 for doves, so never noticed the heavy top lever spring you speak of.

One interesting note for first time planners to Cordoba. The weight of the gun is a two edged sword. A heavy gun will certainly moderate recoil, but will kill your arm muscles lifting it thousands of times a day, according to some I've shot with. Conversely, a light gun will not bother you mounting all day but will pound you more. Personally, the weight of the 30" 687 20 gauge is just right for me. I've never had any recoil issues nor had any fatigue at lifting it at the end of the day. I do use a Kick-Killer leather lace on pad, for lengthening the pull by 1/2", but it has the added benefit of spreading the recoil area of the butt over a larger area than the factory recoil pad.



Could not agree more !
In theory, a heavy 12 gauge clays gun with 24gr shells would be the best choice, but only a weigh lifter could mount and swing it thousands of times for several days in a row.

As far as bruising, some things help: Layers are good, a couple of t-shirts and a vest, or/and a recoil reducer will help a lot.
I've seen a few ugly examples, most of them related to poor gun mount and not having proper protection.
A lot of people with gun mounting issues are only aware of it when shooting the kind of volume that SA has, as "normal" shooting back home in one season is only a fraction of what they experience in a few days in Argentina
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/19/10 03:24 AM
Well, I'm not surprised.
Same as on the trap and skeet fields, the auto versus the over/under and so the battle rages!!
Last trip the guns I shot were were a 16ga at 7-4 and a 28ga at 7-4, both SxSs.

What I noticed is that after the second day my hands hurt and were fatigued from griping the guns while opening and closing them - not the arthritis kind of pain but the muscle kind. The weight was no problem. And while I am 6 foot and 195 pounds of rippling muscle I don't work out and have an office job and am 55 years old.


Best

Mike
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/19/10 08:15 PM
Mike,
What types of guns did you use and how well did they hold up??
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/19/10 08:54 PM
391s, SBIIs and Cordobas and if you really want to practice as well as bundle or flock shoot Citoris and Silver Pigeons will do just fine. But in the evening you need to have a mate with the bird boys and either instruct them on how you want you longarm cleaned or show them. Typically they want to dip it in a solution and run it near a grinding wheel or brush. If you've volume shooting with doubles, disengage the auto-safety, ejectors and forget about the tube selector. You'll wear you thumb out on it.

If you want some ground truth on the number of birds, tell the bird boy to be conservative or find your best critic in the group and have him/her to talley birds for an hour to see what your rate is. But all the volume depends on the flow of birds. If their flight pattern doesn't really materialize early on, you are wasn't cartridges if you are trying to get on a board.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Rockdoc Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/19/10 09:25 PM
I have a friend who went to Argentina, he's a big SXS fan but for that volume of shooting he bought himself a Benelli Cordoba and while he thought it was ugly as sin, he was very pleased with how reliable it was and how it absorbed recoil so he didn't have to.
Another friend used a borrowed gun that didn't fit well and came home with a bleeding ulser on his shoulder.
Steve
If you take and shoot your own guns, as I do, you should clean them yourself. No way would I trust the bird boys to clean and lube my guns, as amiable and helpful as they are, that is just a job I will always tend to myself. I find it relaxing, anyway, after three hours of frenetic shooting.

Good point about the tallying of kills. I check behind by man occasionally, for 100 birds, to see if his count matches mine. I have seen them hitting the counter button without even looking to see if the bird fell, just at the sound of the shot.

Stan
Treb I shot a Parker sixteen DHE one frame and an SKB 485 28 gauge with 28" barrels.

Best,

Mike
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 07/20/10 02:57 AM
Mike how did you decide on that combination with all guns you have??
And did you shoot those two exclusively???

A combination of sentiment and experience. My first trip several of my companions shot the outfitter's guns. The automatic users had sore thumbs and shoulders. The Beretta 20 ga O/U users had sore shoulders from the sub 6 pound guns. I shot a Beretta 28 gauge with 30" barrels weighing 6-1/2 pounds and was in good shape at the end of the trip.

The Parker 16 has 32" barrels, ejectors, weighs 7-4, and choked 32 and 32 and it just seemed like a great application for the gun. The SKB 28 gauge was a SxS and plenty heavy.

And that is all I shot. I shot the 28 a little more because they kept running out of 16s and had to run to town to get more.

Best,

Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 08/25/10 08:36 PM
Anyone notice the glove advert on page 30 of the Orvis catalogue The Hunting Book Fall 2010 where Steve Marsden of Northern Ireland shot 10k rounds in 13 hours with a ratio of 77%? I wonder how many days he began but ceased due to low density flow?
His ratio sounds a bit high, but possible. On the average, that's a shot every 4.68 seconds and a downed dove every 6 seconds, which is doable(?) but for 13 hours? Maybe he did a great deal of bundle shooting??

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: jmc Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 08/25/10 09:59 PM
Question for AmarilloMike -

Any concerns about running their 16 loads through your Parker? I expect it's pretty stout as described... but always still wonder about high pressures with old wood.

I've always thought I will have to have one of my A.H. Fox or Parkers when I go or forever regret it... I'd just not try to put 1000 rds through either.

Thanks,

Jerry
Raimey,

The shell every 4.68 seconds is easily doable. Hitting 77% is also doable. But, for 13 hours straight? I wonder. I hold back on the shots, pretty much, and have averaged one shell per 14 seconds for a whole trip. What is amazing is the man's endurance. One would have to be in excellent physical condition. I'd say he was most certainly using a loader.

I've never seen an instance where "flock shooting" was doable. Even with the millions that one sees in the air on a trip, an individual bird has to be picked out and shot at. Out of roughly four thousand birds I downed last trip, I'll bet not over 10 times was there a true double, two birds with one shot. I use a light mod on the first barrel and a improved cylinder on the second.

Stan
Just back from Argentina, I use a cloth bandaid on my loading thumb and wear them out at each shoot. Had to go to duct tape the last day but my thumb was not cut in spite of my 390's best efforts. I am to old to do the high volume dove bit but I did manage to shoot 1700 shells in 8 hunts, ducks, dove and pidgen. Seir gave me credit for the shells I did not shoot.

bill
Posted By: mike cross Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 08/26/10 12:51 AM
Here's my 2 cents. I returned in late April from San Javier, about 4 hours west of Cordoba. We shot for 6 days, I was the wimp and only shot 4600 shells, primarily because I tried to conserve my shooting $. I shot a Beretta 391, 20 gauge and a B. Rizzini 28 gauge. The good part, the Beretta never hiccuped, I cleaned the exhaust ports every night and found it so pleasant to shoot that on warm days I took off my vest that contained the Reactor Gel pad and experienced no discomfort on my tee shirted shoulder. The disappointment was the number of birds, which my experienced companions said were about half of what they normally encountered. That being said they still shot 6-8K for the trip. I was disappointed in shooting the 28 gauge as the under abundance of birds did not present the shots for which the 28 would excel. The 28 gauge in this shoot was just not enough gun, in part because the shells were loaded with #7 shot, big enough but not enough, while the 20's were #8's.The Rizzini was excellent in all other regards and recommended by the outfitter, Marcelo Gil, an Olympic shooter.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 08/26/10 12:59 AM
I've just seen too many shot and greater than 60% is excellent. Break 70% and you may be on your best day ever. I'm not talking about just pulling a few feathers from the birds, but counting the one that do not rise about the horizon. For 13 hours, the scout has to be on one of his best days to locate the continuous flow of birds. And it could be that Marsden was in a triangle from the roost to the food source to water and back to roost.

Bundle shooting usually can't be rushed and really doesn't add to the total. But a ribbon of birds will look as though it is breathing. Watching that contraction and expansion will work into a rhythm but the ribbon usually falls apart for a finite time when disturbed just like Boat-tail Grackels but a bit faster. Twins are relatively common but you really have to work to get 4 or more.

Marsden is either shooting 2 or more trombones or 2 semi-autos with tube extensions(looks to be of the 7 shot total variety.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 08/26/10 01:13 AM
Originally Posted By: bill schodlatz
Seir gave me credit for the shells I did not shoot.


That's another issue of which to be aware. When you break a box(25 cartridges), not flat, you bought it. They'll tell you that you can't keep the singles. Some look the other way and some don't. You never know when you run upon a parakeet(?) nest on the way home. I'd either shoot them or just keep them in my vest/pocket. And I realize it is a business, but they'll box the singles and shoot them later.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse
Gentlemen,

I resurrect this old thread in order to express my deepest gratitude to everyone who contributed to it. When BookYourHunt, the online platform that connects hunters and outfitters around the world (sort of the hunting Homeaway or AirBNB) asked me to do a blog post about high-volume dove shooting in Argentina, this was the first place I came to for the material. I made a lot of enquiries later, even consulting some of the Argentinean outfitters who are featured on BookYourHunt, but to be honest I could've written the story just based on this thread, and nobody would know the difference. Thank you all again.


Lest I forget, this is the link to the story How to survive high-volume dove shooting in Argentina
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Argentina Super High Volume Shooting - 06/16/17 01:49 AM
Excellent article!!! I'm still amazed at the pictures of all those millions of birds in those fields.
Thank you!

Wish I could see all these clouds of birds with my own eyes...
Good job with the story, HD. Very well done.

Concerning your wish to be able to see the clouds of doves with "your own eyes" I would add but one comment, to borrow a phrase from Capstick, who wrote it concerning hunting in Africa .................. it's worth borrowing money to go.

SRH
Thank you!

I'm guessing if I get my writing better and better, at some point they'd be paying me to come over and do it smile
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