http://www.gunsinternational.com/HUSQVAR...un_id=100112979

Criminal Case!

jack

Does that thing have shingles or small pox?

Not to everyones taste but he is up front about the work and does a good job puffing the gun. Probably end up being someones first hammergun.

He is going "Green"

Think he used anaconda skin as a pattern, as my Grandfather would say "absolutely ghastly"
Awful!!
Mike

Mike, I'd say frog skin and yes, your Grandfather would be spot on!

JC

Like Ed says: "Some turn out better than others!"...Geo

Isn't that think a little too old to get zits??

At what point do you realize you aren't making things better?

Hopefully, soon.


Best,
Ted

Looks like a pet frog I had as a kid.



Rich

The same gun is in an auction at Gunbroker,

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=168298491

My very low mileage Model 51 cost about four hundred dollars. Ed could have more wisely spent his money on improving the locking mechanism. The lever position indicates heavy use and possibly a loose breech. Not a bargain at $200.

I reconize the case coloring. Old time trick of the trade. You heat up the action and stand over it and piss on it.

Best

John Boyd

I sure hope John was joking!...Geo

Did he use a green filter on his camera? The whole gun has a green cast...not that it wouldn't be ugly anyway.

Wow. Maybe it's mold. You think Hoppe's #9 could get that off?

Since case-hardening colors are so closely related to temper heat colors, localized heating can be used to alter the the colors or to add colors. A natural gas or propane and oxygen torch also works very well when the flame is very small and oxygen rich. These methods have been found to be very useful in obtaining excellent colors and consistent repeatable results.

You are all so cruel but, boy, did you make me laugh on a dull day. Thank you!

I think the "flora" added a lot to the pictures.
It would have really touched my Feminine side....if I had one.

The colors of Case-Hardening are produced during the "Hardening" (quench) proces. Temper colors are produced by heating to a degree which removes hardness. "Spot" tempering a hardened part results in a smorgasboard of hard & soft spots. This Method should "Never Ever" be applied to a gun frame.
Loss of color does not result in loss of the hard case, tempering it does. The hard "Case" may not be necessary in order to contain the forces of firing, but it "Was" put there for a purpose. It definitely should be kept uniform & not sporadic.
I do not know what method "ED" uses, but the appearence to me is of the process where the part is "Warmed" (less than the heat of boiling water), not to a temper heat) & then daubed with chemicals. "IF" this be the case this does not affect the hardness of the case at all, only the color of the surface.
Personally on my own guns even if the color is virtually all gone I just leave them "As-Is". This "Faux-Finish" though is rather easily applied & does not require a "Master" nor is it worthy of a "Premium" price.

I think gun huckster "Ed" as opposed to gun destroyer "Ed" must be using up his stock of Ektachrome film. As for Landers, Turnbull must be "green" with jealousy.

jack

And I thought that this thread was going to show the 20 ga. DS Lefever that ED1 is selling on Gunbroker. Master gunsmith Ed Lander is an equal opportunity destroyer willing to alter the metallurgy of most any gun. I wish I had the money he spent on propane and acetylene.

I just hope those green, blue and yellow case colors don't bleed into the wood!

John, you forgot to add pissing on the gun after drinking cheap beer that was dyed green for Saint Patricks Day.

Toby, the only good news is that he has yet to start destroying English guns.

Did I here someone say that Ed was moving to England?

We could all chip in and buy him a one way ticket....

My eyes! My eyes!
I may never see right again!

Does anyone actually know (Or Care) if in fact the metallurgy of this gun has been affected. It still appears to me as a "Hideous" chemical coloring job.
Understand, I am not defending his coloring job on this gun, it no doubt looked better prior to the "Treatment", I am just not certain the actual integrity of the gun itself was affected, beyond its appearence. These are vastly different situations.

And to think, I shook hands with you one time.

I'm holding out for an upgraded Parker with Ed's engraving on it.

It's a camo pattern!!!

swak! swak! swak! pluck pluck pluck.....

Well, what do you consider a good job of coloring an action? Are spots of color here and there acceptable to you? If so, I suppose there is no accounting for individual tastes and let it go at that.I do believe that to the general populace of experienced double gun men that the "spots" are unacceptable, if for no other reason than they do not reflect the original coloring of the action.

"I do believe that to the general populace of experienced double gun men that the "spots" are unacceptable, if for no other reason than they do not reflect the original coloring of the action"........ah, the great oz has spoken! knows all, sees all...please, be aware: ed lander has been a general gunsmith for over 60 years now! recoloring a shotgun receiver without changing the original factory heat treatment aint easy. old ed has recolored well over 100 shotgun receivers at my request. most, but not all, turn out to be a fair reproduction of what i consider to be the original factory coloring. over the years, i have been very successful selling guns that old ed has worked on. if not, i certainly would not be using his services. the fact is, there are literally thousands of the general populace of experienced double gun men that appreciate old ed's wood and metal work. i am certainly one of them.

Well,as my high school teacher friend has pointed out to me many times,"Most people are stupid."

Reminds me of"Never time to do it right, but always time to do it over!"

Craig

60 years now, I thought you had to learn from your MISTAKES to count it as experience!

Craig

I learned long ago, that when a customer wants me to do something that just isn't right in either safety or in the quality of my standards, I won't do it. My "name" is on my work and now Ed is the proof of what happens when you do this work.

Half the population is of below average intelligence. Ed has a very large potential customer base.

or as they used to say in the car business


"There is a ass for every seat"

blah, blah, blah.....

Only a Master could pull off a camo job like that.

Fact is he should have gave up being a general gunsmith 59 years ago.

Hey bud I resent that

Has a striking resemblance to the surface of a frog pond.

I think he's trying to hypnotize a buyer

aw come on joe, you solved the riddle....whiskey are good an sum peeple are ah pain in de ass!

nothing like having a "battle of wits with an unarmed man"

now that is clever.

Flowers for the sick, how thoughtful.

I think both "Ed's" are deeply disturbed individuals and should seek some professional help ASAP.

yep, its all about doubleguns.

Fire up the torch and lets make another double gun toast...

Mr. Ed ---- after all the times your re-worked products show up and comments are posted here re. the quality of the finished
piece , haven't you yet noticed that your efforts are not appreciated ? Also, aren't you aware that all you are doing is to put yourself up to being made fun of ---- surely you must be aware that you are only making a fool of yourself with this august group of educated collectors that live here......... I know that you do sell some re-works but, there is always a group of newby's out there that aren't aware of bogus guns and are easy prey ..... they won't be forever.

have you noticed that you never see ed good or ed lander in the same place?(together)?makes me wonder mc

I have started wondering that maybe Mr. Ed is in reality the character from the
TV series that changed jobs. Or at least a part of his anatomy?

JC

Cool Colors

Can I get one in hot pink, my wife's Birthday is comming up

Mike

Quite sure they are one in the same....same torch, same sickness........a member in N.H. tried to set up an appointment to watch "the torching"......never happened of course.......

on and on and on.....careful boys, my attorney is watching this thread as well....

OH NO!!!...not the ATTORNEY...Geo

So?

You mean Master attorney. Is his name ed too?

Hope you pay him in cash and not one of those torch job abortions in trade,the last person you want to have one of those ticking time bombs is an attorney !

If this conversation took place in a bar I think Ed would have gone home by now.

Tell your attorney that he, like you, can go shit in his hat.

Mr Ed,

I am scared sh*tless of your attorney!!!!

Come on, get real!!

JC

P.S.: Does SW of SA give you a clue? jc

Hope it is not Ed Dowee of Dowee Scruem & Howe, I heard he can be hard to deal with!

Craig

Or maybe just waitin in the parking lot for a little one-on-one with the keyboard bullies.

what a bunch of low lifes....or as i asked once before:
are there no gentlemen here?

The only gentleman got burnt up at the last torching.

Hey, watch it there... my attorney is monitering this thread too... and my attorney has a bigger torch than your attorney.

Here is a quote from Ed Good: "most, but not all, turn out to be a fair reproduction of what i consider to be the original factory coloring". Ed Good, I challenge you to put a picture on here of an original gun that has color hardening similar to the
the ones that that I have seen done by "Master gunsmith Ed Lander". I have been collecting double guns and rifles for over 40 years and have never encountered original color hardening like Lander's. I have done color hardening before in a laboratory condition and helped Don Menck of Color Case Company
develop his color hardening methods. I would not touch one of Ed Lander's color jobs on a bet. These old guns have enough potential problems with nonmetallic inclusions let alone having preferential heat treating done to them.

Larry

yeh, I asked if I could get his smith to fit a nice Boyds Royal (Black and Purple) laminate thumbhole stock to that little Lefever. I got a terse, threatening response. Going to report me to GB management etc. Guess he's lost his sense of humor...maybe too many torch fumes.

larry: here we go again....lets try to keep it civil and stick to the topic.... in my opinion:

Heating any shotgun receiver without controlling the temperature and heat duration is potentially dangerous and can damage guns and potentially harm shooters. If a shotgun receiver is heated to critical temperature, such as that required for the bone charcoal hardening process to be effective, then the structure of the surface metal has been changed and the surface metal should be tempered back to provide some elasticity. Otherwise, the surface metal is as brittle as glass and may crack or shatter upon firing of the gun.

Incorrect tempering of receiver surface metel is the inherent flaw in the use of the high heat bone charcoal process when applied to shotgun receivers. A dangerous situation may develop as a result of incorrect tempering of the receiver metal after the high heat bone charcoal coloring process is completed. This is particularly true of older shotgun receivers, made prior to ww2. Factory tempering specifications were inconsistent, as receiver metallurgy formulas changed from time to time. Unfortunately, much of the original factory hardening and tempering specifications have been lost. Even the best of mechanics are only guessing when they attempt to correctly re temper a shotgun receiver after subjecting it to a high heat bone charcoal hardening process.

Quality case coloring should provide cosmetic enhancement without endangering gun integrity or shooter safety....Be careful if you are contemplating sending your prized shotgun's receiver to a high heat bone charcoal mechanic.. He is going heat it up to around 1600 degrees F... Make sure that you get it in writing, that if the receiver warps in the heating and tempering process or that if it cracks after firing, then the mechanic will assume full financial responsibility for the destruction of your gun and/or your personal injury.

A low, controlled heat process, combined with specific chemicals is the safest way to recolor a shotgun receiver. So long as the heat is kept low and controlled, the original receiver metallurgy and heat treatment is not changed. No harm is done to the gun nor is there any potential for danger to the shooter, as a result of the re coloring process.

I myself do not do any gun work of any kind. I have neither the skill nor the patience. Instead, i utilize the services of Ed Lander, for most of my repair and enhancement needs. Old Ed has over 60 years of experience in the gunsmithing trade and does fine work at a fair price. He has recolored literally hundreds if not thousands of shotguns receivers using his low controlled heat, chemical process.

Old Ed has developed his techniques over many years of trial and error. He even has different chemical formulas that simulate different factory colors for different guns, depending on when they were made. He may use a potters kiln to precisely control heat. What i do know, is that his top priorities in all of his gun work are shooter safety and customer satisfaction.

In summary, shotgun receivers should never be rehardened in the vain interest of just restoring the cosmetic effect of case colors. Case hardening is a high heat process which alters the surface molecular structure of the receiver metal. Rehardening a receiver can warp it. Subsequent efforts to straighten the metal, either by bending or filing can only harm the fine original metal-to-metal fit and adversely alter the workings of carefully aligned internal shotgun parts. In addition, if the receiver surface metal is not correctly re tempered after the hardening process, then the receiver metal may be too brittle and as a result, may crack upon firing.

The above is my opinion only. If you have another opinion, then you are certainly entitled to express it. ed

I think you may have a point but the main objection is that Ed's colors do not even begin to look like any original factory work and in fact border on the bizarre.

RHD45: I hope i made more than one point...Anyway, Old Ed has recolored literally hundreds if not thousands of shotgun receivers using his low controlled heat, chemical process. He has done well over 100 at my request. His work is popular with people all over the world! Perhaps, you have not seen enough of his work to make such a bizarre judgement?

The above is my opinion only. If you have another opinion, then you are certainly entitled to express it. ed

Ed, I have no idea how you manage to have the patience and self control to keep responding reasonably to all the abuse you get here. I don't much like the leopard spotted guns you keep pictureing, but I do respect you for the attitude you have when posting on this BBS...Geo

I can only judge from the pictures I have seen of about 20 or so guns that have shown up on the gun sites.I will concede that pictures do not always tell the same story as an actual in person inspection might.

RHD45: 20 examples is certainly enough of a sample for you to form an opinion. you are certainly entitled to your opinion and to express it. fortunately, there are others who appreciate Old Ed's work enough to have purchased most of those guns at fair retail prices. If that were not the case, i certainly would not continue to use his services. ed

Geo. N.: I have dealt with the public in a sales and marketing capacity for approximately 40 years now. One of the many things i learned over the years is patience. even though i am now retired, overcoming objections and closing a deal is still my main reward for making a sale. you gotta love it, or otherwise, why bother? thank you for your kind words. ed

Wow! Nine pages already. Normally I would think that is enough, but this may still be of interest: Here is a picture of a model 51 with its original colors taken outdoors without any image adjustments

Very nice and the way we all ,or most of us,like to see 'em.

Does this look original ?

http://www.gunsinternational.com/FOX-STERLINGWORTH-20-GAUGE-98-.cfm?gun_id=100124658

Looks like cyanide colors. I'm no fox expert, but I thought the late savage guns were finished with this method. Of course more and better pictures could help too.

Got this off the Fox Collectors website:

From my observations there are three distinct types of case colors on Fox guns. The early type bone charcoal colors are illustrated above. The second type is seen on guns from the 1916-1918 period and have more light straw color than vivid blue. Doug Turnbull told me the more straw color the harder the surface. These guns exhibit very subdued blue. My theory is these guns are charcoal blued using a chromox frame and they hardened differently than the earlier non-chromox frames. The last group is the cyanide colored chromox frames that have a dark blue appearance.

PS. I think they have been redone.

I have no idea how Mr. Ed knows what most heat treaters bring the temp to when they heat treat a receiver. Also, I have never heard of a CC guy heating a frame to 1600 degrees --- the usual temp is 1400 - 1425 degrees. Furthermore, a frame/receiver should be annealed prior to CC to relieve stresses & release carbon (guess you haven't read about that from another thread Mr. Ed.) Seems there is quite abit you aren't aware of re. CC based on your replies to this subject. Of course I only have a back ground of being a former Colt & Win. master engraver to fall back on & the info the fact. guys taught me.

As to re-CC a frame/action being dangerous, Guess Colt, Win. , and all the guys such as Classic guns & Turnbulls haven't heard from you and your wise opinions re. this topic. Wonder why they continue to re-case these firearms over the past 100 or so years ??? Could you possibly be wrong about the danger aspect ? I for one have never heard of any of the above being sued for damaging a firearm but then again, I have only been in the business for 51 years so might not have the experience you have.

as is typical of some here, ken misses the point and degrades this forum by resorting to the personal attack mode in order to express his views. or, maybe he just has a vested interest in this whole receiver rehardening thing and has to do what he does in order to continue to practice his trade? anyway, so it goes...too bad no one has bothered to note that the husquvarna model 51 is a fine and rare gun. best i can determine, only about 11,000 12 gauge guns were made, between 1911 and 1947. the one i have, which was made in 1916, is a handsome gun and is a fun shooter with rst or polywad one ounce loads. if you are lucky enough to have one, enjoy it!

it it my understanding that the alloy formulas typically used over the years to produce rifle, handgun and shotgun frames or receivers, are quite different. hence, it would make since that the factory heat treating processes used for these various types of firearm frames and receivers would also be different? or to express it another way, what works for rifle receivers, is not the same as what works for handgun frames? and then there is the whole subject of shotgun receivers? anybody have any thoughts to share here? maybe we can start a new thread, as this one is gittin kinda old and stale....

What personal attack? ..... If you want to talk about personal attacks you Mr Ed was the one that recently called a fellow poster a "game hog, butcher, and a psychopathic killer" , now that was a personal attack!

Doug Turnbull has spent many years working out the appropriate case hardening techniques for the various alloys used by many manufacturers, He can give you Parker colors or Smith colors or Fox colors, or whatever else you are likely to need. They are all different and require different treatments. Some of those treatments are necessarily proprietary, but he has published on this topic and is probably worth some further reading. I have a Smith and a Parker that were case hardened and colored by Turnbull's shop, and they are both "correct" as far as I can tell. And neither of them is cracked or warped.

Turnbull is also somewhat renowned for his work on pistols, revolvers and rifles.

as to turnbull's reputation... it has been my experience and observation that he is one of the few firearms refinishers whose work demands a high price come resale time. good thing, as he dont work cheap! a tip, if you have work done by turnbull, make sure you retain the receipt. without it, your gun is just another well refinished piece and not worth near as much as it would be with the turnbull provenance included.

Tag teams? Kens vs. Eds? But we never hear from Ed L.? Hmm. You let Lander out for exercise, Ed? Take him for walks? Or does he just sit in that rocker at the window lookin stuffed?

jack

look at this fine example of case color.Notice all the birds eye torch marks.I must quess that ed's wife has taken up case color,as the poster is carolina girl.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=170866069

Hi -

Speaking of case coloring...what can I do to "touch up" a small worn (pencil eraser sized) area on a case colored SxS? The top lever was pressed down on open and scraped the brown case coloring off leaving a shiny mark down to the bare metal. It's really bugging me. I don't need the whole receiver redone because it’s at 95%. Does anyone know of a repair kit or some way of covering/blending small areas?

Thanks, Joe

To Ed.

I know virtually nothing about heat treatments, especially case coloring (well maybe more then you two), but to argue and degrade the likes of Mr. Hurst and Mr. Turnbull, you make yourself look like, well, Ed L's torch, a tool.

I'm glad you have a lawyer because you would be useless as one yourself. Your arguments supporting Ed L's work are asinine and outlandish. To even consider his work as anything close to factory colors is ridiculous. Please prove me wrong, and post some side-by-side pictures. But then again you would probably consider replacing the round headlights of a vintage Mustang with square ones as bringing it back to original.

“I have dealt with the public in a sales and marketing capacity for approximately 40 years now”

The only thing I do believe is that you have been a salesman for many years, and it must have been in used cars.

“please, be aware: ed lander has been a general gunsmith for over 60 years now!”

I thought he was a Master Gunsmith? I think your right, the only time, in your description of Ed L.

I hope Ed L. does not have a lawyer watching you!

Don.

dal: your post is so full of incorrect conclusions, that it is truly one of those that is just not worthy of a response. perhaps i am finally loosing my patience here. ed

Ed, your like Russell from the recent Survivor series. You just don't get it, do you?


Don.

Only difference Russell should have won...and Ed's torch should have been put out 100 guns ago.

juvenile and inappropriate....

Just like Ed's torch jobs! Do you get it now?

Don.

Many a gun have I bid on just to keep it from being assaulted. I always feel bad if I fail.

Mattie Ross: Aw, thats a big story. If you think you can cheat me,
youre mistaken. Youve not heard the last of Mattie Ross. You may
well hear from my lawyer, Daggett. [leaves]
Rooster Cogburn: [to LaBoeuf] Lawyer Daggett? Whos lawyer Daggett?
LaBoeuf: I wouldnt worry about him. Id worry about our business at
hand.

Gentlemen, may I add my comments. Re-color hardening or what ever you wish to call it does not always come out as you would wish. That is an undeniable truth. However if ,as with any job ,it does not turn out well ,you do it again .

You suggesting Ed torch it again ?

"ANYTIME" a piece of steel is given a sudden quench from above its critical temperture there are risks involved. "IF" it is not given that sudden quench from above irs critical temperature it will not be hardened. Anyone who tells you otherwise is not dealing off the top of the deck. A 99.99% success ratio means little if your gun just happens to be that .01%. Anyone doing this work should honestly apprise a customer that there is a modicum of risk involved.
Running it through again won't help much if the problem should just happen to be a cracked frame, admittedly a rare occurance, but not totally unheard of either. It would be very interesting to know just what percentage were lost by the original makers on the "First" processing. Every time a piece of steel is Re-Heat Treated the risks grow.

ah...a man of reason with some knowledge has surfaced... as for this particular receiver, please keep in mind that at no time was the metal heated to above its critical temperature. consequently, the original factory heat treating of this receiver was not altered... as for the percentage of loss in a factory heat treating environment, i would suggest that it was quite low. i figure the factory heat treating mechanics were working with the same specs every day and rarely made mistakes. compare that with the typical rehardening mechanic of today. due to the huge variety of different manufacturers products thrown at him, he probably says a little prayer and crosses his fingers each time he fires up the furnace; where 1400 to 1600 degrees F is required to bring the metal to above critical temperature. that is what is required for the bone charcoal rehardening/recoloring process to be effective. i gotta believe his percentage of loss is quite high...

Ed Good, Pipes' views on the methodology of CCH and recommendations of harmless substitutes are well known here. It's too bad your search for protective coloration impells you to parrot his arguments in an attempt to deflect attention from or perhaps legitimize Landers' "process."

jack

High heat, low heat....who cares, it still looks like crap. Have old Ed clean up the rest of gun but leave the original case colors alone. No original case color is better than the spotted mess I have seen in the pictures.

Jack I sure like the way you talk.


I figure bout now Mr.Ed is talking to his attorney about the parrot that pooped on his husky.

I don tok dat way Joe I jes rats lik dat

jack

Ed,

I would bet that if Ed Landers was a "master" car restorer he would repaint a very collectable Duesenberg green and pink with flames on it. That is about what I think he is doing to guns with his bizarre so called case colors. I would still like to see an original gun with original case colors that even remotely look like Lander's abortions.

Anybody know how you end a thread? Shoot it, or what? There has got to be something else...

How about

THE END

Torch it ?

Nah, Torch it then put it out with Cold Blue.

how bout won uv youse guys buy hit an giv hit ah viking funeral?

Ed put the bottle down and try it one more time in English

I like it better than when he trys to do his Southern accent/dialect imitation...Geo

How ironic....it's already had a Viking funeral.

I Googled Master Gunsmith Ed Lander.

And came across a website that boasts a four year association with said master gunsmith and found pricing for his work:

"Case coloring: $25. and up, included in bluing if required (acetylene method)."

Gee, a real bargain!